Plan Design, Wellness & Pooled Employer Plans with Deb Rubin

[0:06] JD: You're going to have a really, really bad time, sir. [0:10] Deb Rubin: This. Let me up. Let me up. You're going to have a real bad time. [0:17] JD: Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Retireholics. My name is James Douglas Carlson the third. Not really the third, but. And I was born on April 29th, 1971. That's right, everybody. My birthday is coming up pretty soon, so feel free. Send me a LinkedIn direct message saying happy Birthday. I know it'll be a heartfelt thing from you. 54, 53, 54. [0:48] Justin: I'm asking you. You shouldn't be asking me. [0:51] JD: I am joined by silent J, Justin McNeil, nerdy Chad, Chad Johansen, and everybody's favorite retireholic guy. Quick housekeeping item that I need your all insights on. I got an email from Kevin Spayth, last show's guest, claiming that the acronym for Lynsco Private Ledger is not an acro sin because they now call themselves by those three initials. Okay, no, this is crazy. Can we. Thank you, Justin. Chat bar. Can you chime in? I want us to be very clear about these rules. This is still an acro sin. It doesn't matter that they call themselves by those initials now. Originally it was Lynxco Private Ledger. Do we all agree? Can we clear the. [1:51] Chad: Yeah, clear. Air is clear. Major League Baseball, National Hockey League, same thing. Goes. Those are all Acros. [1:58] Justin: This is our show. [2:00] JD: Yeah. Thank you. Just wanted to make sure. Just want to make sure. As since we're on this kind of housekeeping vibe, let's update ourselves. The little retirement community on the Wayne Park. The chief executive officer of John Hancock. Excuse me. Of Manulife. John Hancock Retirement. [2:20] Chad: Retirement. [2:21] JD: Little situation. Chad, I don't think I ever properly thanked you for making it happen. The situation here, Deb, was I had private message. The chief executive officer of. Hang on. Manual Life, John Hancock Retirement, and kind of Santa. What's up? And he left me hanging for, like, months. And I complained about it on this show. Well, Chad. And Chad's beautiful wife ran into him at a conference and they somehow motivated him to write me back. And I thought since he didn't respond to me for so long, I probably was not going to respond to him for a little while too, you know, give him a little piece of his own medicine. But, Chad, I can tell you 17 days later now, and everyone listening in, I have responded to chief executive officer of Manulife John Hancock Retirement. And so you should be proud. [3:14] Chad: We are proud of you. [3:16] JD: Brandon's got it right now. He's got. [3:22] Chad: Oh, that's Good. Judy. [3:25] JD: New phone. Who dis. We'll see how he. I don't know if I hear back from him or not. That is. [3:33] Mark: That is four sentences, four lines of redacted words. That's a lot of words to put into that, too. [3:42] Chad: I did not motivate anything. He. He walked up to us and he said his words exactly. Well, I watched your little show last night, and I'm like, oh. Because we said some stuff on that show about the rebranding and stuff, and he laughed and said it was all good. [3:58] JD: Little, though. [3:59] Chad: That's what Brooks. He immediately corrected himself, and he's like, well, your show. And Brooke poked at it because we were all standing there. My wife poked at it like you called it a little show. Thank you, Wayne. Knock him down a notch, everyone. [4:13] JD: Easy now. I have reached back out. It is that time of the show. We've got a. An overdue guest for sure. Like, this is long overdue. But I don't want to take away from Justin's His. His suave plan of attack or whatever. Whatever he's got going on here. So, Justin, it's your time. Intro. [4:33] Justin: Our guest, she's another industry legend who spent decades managing teams, hammering sales goals, and delivering keynote presentations. She's something the Holics are still dreaming of doing. She recently got out from underneath the corporate thumb. She's an advocate for the growth of pooled employer plans. Strike one. And in her spare time, she moonlights as watercolor artist who's known for photorealistic paintings. She's a one of a kinder. Founder of Deb Rubin Coaching Ms. Deb Luben. [5:01] JD: Thank you. [5:02] Deb Rubin: Thank you. [5:04] JD: And I do mean long overdue. You have been a very well known, very respected executive in our industry. I think we're gonna have a lot of fun tonight because you've spent time at Manulife or, excuse me, Manulife, John Hancock retirement. You were then at what was Ing and Voya and then a long career at Trans Am. So I'm. I think we'll get a lot of fun stuff out of you tonight. But, Brandon, you know what I'm hungry for? Give me what I want. Give me some 401k headlines. Let's do this. We had a past guest on the show that's actually a bit of a fib. I think he. He was part of what was a Tall Can Talks debate episode, and his name is Todd Lacy, and he had a career at Stadium and then was kind of dabbling and helping out with the smart stuff that had come over from the United Kingdom. And anyways, great guy, really cool. He has changed gigs and he is now with the company of another past guest. We had, Ms. Davidson, what was her first name, she started Financial Finesse and so he's now over there as a president for that company. Rogue Guy. I'm not going to go to you because I know you just don't think wellness is a thing. You never have and you never will. So I'm gonna go to Deb, with your experience at all these three different record keepers over the years, where do you stand on the value of wellness programs? And then as a second part to the question maybe specifically like how about record keeper driven wellness programs versus these third party things like financial Finesse. Where are you at on wellness? [7:12] Deb Rubin: So I am a big believer in the need for financial education and support we have. It's kind of a nerdy thing to say, but we have a massive, massive retirement savings gap and you can't get a number because everybody has different statistics. But it's trillions and trillions of dollars. And so anything anyone can do to help more people get on the road to financial wellness, a great thing. I checked out their website, Financial Finesse. They're doing a lot of really nice work in corporate settings. It looks like they join corporate settings and provide wellness as an employee benefit so the participants don't have to pay for it. And if somebody willing to actually get help, it's great to have an opportunity and an easy way for them to get them help. [8:05] JD: Well, very, very well said. You sound like a chief executive officer of a large corporation. I think our debate on this show, where I'd like to go a little deeper with you, is not so. Of course we all love the concept of more coverage, more participation, more people saving for retirement. I think where the big debate around this comes from is wellness and is it succeeding or not. Like are we able to implement wellness programs in these employer based situations and actually move the needle? Or like Rogue Guy has said for years, do the participants just not care? No one takes it up. No one's doing anything. Chad, I'm going to kick over to you because it seems to me like financial finesse must be moving the needle, must be continuing to do well if they're bringing in someone like Todd Lacy at this stage. I mean, because she's been doing this for a while over there. [9:06] Chad: I mean, I'd like to say the that I know that answer is yes, but I don't. I mean we've seen it from emerging market or emerging businesses through our industry constantly where they get a bunch of funding, they bring on a bunch of people, they build something out that never quite works. Not saying that's what's happening here, but I don't know if they're successful right now. J.D. what I will say, and I think Moody hit it well in the chat bar. In order for any type of financial education like Deb said, or financial wellness to truly work, it has to integrate with other benefits, it has to integrate with payroll and it has to have some sort of input from that participant that really helps this technology, this, this service figure out what they actually need help with. Because if we're just going to say that financial wellness is about getting people saving more into the 401k plan, Deb already hit that note, right. We have a massive coverage gap. We have people not saving enough. So what we have done is not [10:02] JD: working there and we've probably solved that problem, I would say more strategically and more effectively with automatic enrollment, automatic increase. All the stuff that we've done that's really helped. And we can talk about coverage a little later. We've got state run plans, we'll talk on pooled employer plans. Erg but, but no, I'm just. To me, this wellness thing is more about are you saving for your, your kids college savings? Are, are you budgeting properly at home? Are you getting down your credit card debt? And of course these things can impact your 401k savings. But Deb, one more time to kind of wrap out this thing. I know that the voyage the Trans Americas, the I'm going to do this all year now. The, the Manulife John Hancock retirements have all tried to put in place like proprietary wellness solutions, but I just feel like they're gathering dust. I mean you've been there. Am I wrong? Are they actually working? Cause I feel like no one's using them. [11:05] Deb Rubin: I think that the usage is low. Now again, I don't have the statistics so I can't tell you exactly what and where and how. But what I can tell you is I think you're right. I think that plan design, I hate to say it, forces people in, is a way to really move the needle and then the tools are there for people who want them. I mean, let's face it, so many people have so many commitments and they're stretched so thin financially. I love what you just said about going beyond the 401k. You know, if kids don't get educated on money, they get out of school. They have all of these things they have to pay for. And 401k is one little teeny sliver. So if their parents say make sure you take you do the 401k, they do it. But if not, they have their Internet that they have to pay for and their cell phone that they have to pay for and their college loans that they have to pay for. So this is just one more thing. And so plan design I think makes a huge difference. And for people who understand and have a desire to learn more, these tools are really helpful. [12:11] JD: Well, I've said it before, I'll say it again. I have talked to many employers kind of in the mid market and I will tell you that the decision makers at these employers are very interested in this. They do want to provide this type of financial planning and financial help to their participants. They find, I would say they find it very sexy, like kind of cooler than even the 401k. And so I still think there's hope. I still think that visors out there that can find the right third party or find the right record keeper and really kind of help moving along. I still think there's a chance there. But I'm starting to lose hope that we will never really crack the wellness success deal. But let's. [12:52] Chad: Oh, look at Mark. [12:53] Deb Rubin: Look at Mark. [12:54] Chad: Let me make one statement, JD because [12:56] JD: I just say that I think I'm [12:57] Mark: flipping to the other side. Can I say I'm. [13:01] Chad: Of course you would make one statement [13:03] JD: and I got more to get to go chat. [13:05] Mark: I don't want JD to be on my side ever. So I'm gonna go the opposite route. [13:10] Chad: I'm starting to see some of the financial wellness tools do one thing that we've been calling for for years that I feel like they've all failed at, which is to say how you should spend your next dollar. [13:22] JD: Right. [13:23] Chad: And I think that that terminology is crucial for the average working American. Should you save your next dollar into the 401k? Should you pay down your your credit card debt? Should you save in a 529? If we are being direct with people and we are telling them this is what we believe you should do with your next dollar, they will take action. But if we throw seven different things at them and different options to take action on, they won't. That needle will not move. [13:48] JD: Great point. [13:49] Justin: It's also going to take actually people talking to them about it. I feel like we bring out all these tools and record keepers what not just they have them available. There's no one driving that conversation. Think about it. With automatic Enrollment. We had to do that because people weren't saving. And that's just a small part of it all. [14:04] JD: We should automatically financial wellness them. Silent. Okay, let's go to. I want to talk about a phenomenon I've been seeing on LinkedIn and I wanted to see if I was alone or if anyone else had noticed this and maybe I'm just a freak show. I saw a friend of mine, SoCal advisor, Tony Francimone. There's his post. I believe that he's at Sage View now. And they made the like top defined contribution advisor teams of 20, 25 or whatever. And so you know, it's that kind of like self promo thing which Tony, I'm totally fine with that. That's not my point today. My point is I giggle to myself as I scroll the comments. And what I end up seeing is what a haven now for vendors to ask Kiss to advisors. What I see are find contribution investment only wholesalers sailing saying way to go Tony. And then a record keeper saying, you're a real stud, Tony. And then another mutual fund company going, wow, you deserve it. Your team is awesome. And I read down and I read down and read down and all it is is a bunch of people who are trying to sell them shit saying congrats to them on their thing. [15:21] Mark: And by the way, one of them is Devin. I was going to say, yeah, one of them. [15:25] JD: This is our internal sales guy Devin, who literally said the same thing. So let's be honest, what they're doing [15:31] Justin: it for, they're doing it to get back in touch with that person. [15:36] JD: I don't, I'm not gonna go to Deb on this one. This is way below her. This is beneath her. But so Robi, am I making much ado about Nothing? Come on, J.D. or am I? Do you? Do you? [15:49] Mark: I don't, I don't want to be the person that always agrees with things like this. I feel like you've been in my brain for so long and I hear you on these and I, I see these things and I have the same exact thought process. But then my, my, my question is always, well then what is all of this really for? If people are trying to engage like it's okay. Is saying something better than just hitting the thumbs up button? Like I guess what it is, JD is the old, the old saying, I'm just going to make one up is if you don't like it, keep scrolling right? Like who cares? It's just move past it. [16:23] JD: Let people, I don't get too technical. I Don't want to get too technical. We've tried to have like social media experts on the show before and I feel like it always crashes and burns. But if I was going to say, like, how it should work, I would think in a, in my utopian world, Tony is followed by a lot of plan sponsors. And it's his plan sponsors, either his clients or his prospects that are taking note of the fact that he got this award instead of the people that are trying to sell him. And so that's still happening. Finish. Let me finish. I feel like LinkedIn for the financial services foreign case is what they call an echo chamber. Go ahead, John. [17:03] Chad: No, I think you're right there. But, but what you just described, the echo chamber comment is right, what you described before. The prospective clients are going on to LinkedIn and they're looking at an advisor's activity and they're looking at these things. They may not be the ones commenting, but they are quality checking. They're looking at designations, they're looking at their website, they are checking their LinkedIn before they're hiring these advisors. So yeah, there is a meaning to this, Deb. [17:33] JD: One of the fun parts of hosting this show is I get to tell Brandon, the producer to do things for me and I'd like to share that with you. I've never done this before. I would like to share that power with you and I would like you to tell Brandon to spin the wheel of ice. Can you do that? [17:53] Deb Rubin: If you're telling me to, I'll do it. [17:55] JD: Do it. [17:56] Deb Rubin: Spin the wheel of ice. [18:01] JD: Well done. Can we clip that on? [18:06] Chad: It doesn't pay much, Deb. [18:09] JD: Ro Guy, Rogue Guy will now pound a smear off ice. While we move on, there is an article at, let's see where it is. And it's, it's, I think, Advisor, I believe. And it's talking about 400k trading, spiking. And I'll say it on the tariff shock. I, I almost didn't want to cover this because it's become so political. Dare I say I was scared to go through this topic. I don't know, I, I, I didn't want to cover the fact that the stock market has been so volatile. And then I said to myself, jd, what the, this is our industry, this is a big deal. And since April 7th or whatever, we've had a lot of volatility, a lot of down days, very large down days, almost reminiscent of COVID if you will. I remember waking up in Covet and seeing the Dow. He literally dropped you know a couple thousand points and feeling like Jesus, I've never seen that happen before. But so let's, let's try to tackle this a little bit. And fit and fit even better. But my mic just switched again. [19:17] Chad: Yes, I do. [19:18] Justin: It did more than that. [19:20] JD: Apparently. [19:29] Chad: You're good now J.D. [19:30] JD: we can hear you. [19:32] Mark: Remember the O1 that will go brightly. [19:36] Chad: Yeah. So good J.D. [19:38] JD: remember I love the old can you hear me? It's like if they can't hear you, why are you asking them? That's ridiculous. We had a big day of trading activity with within 401k plans. Apparently it was 10 times higher than normal. This comes from the people at a Light solutions which I feel like they've been coming out with this in several different situations or years. Whenever the markets are sketchy, they seem to be the ones to tell us how sketchy they were. A lot of money flowing outside of large cap United States equities. Yeah, I'm playing the game tonight people. I'm playing acrosten and a lot of which was more concerning to me like 94 million. Yeah, I'm drinking, I'm just playing, you know, I'm playing a win. Playing a win. [20:24] Mark: You are on your game today. [20:25] JD: Something I was hammered last show debut. So a lot of money flowing out of target day funds. So deb volatile markets, people worried about the future and then you see money flowing out of target dates and flowing out of you United States equities check swing and into conservative money markets and stuff. I mean just, just quickly like it just give you concern is this, it's not what you want to see. Right. In 401k plans. [21:02] Deb Rubin: That's another reason why they need those financial literacy tools. Right? In truth, I mean we know what happens to people. People get scared and if you're watching the markets and you're getting scared, you're saying what should I do? And we know from years and years of watching the market that most people move at the wrong time because once they move from equities into stable value, they've essentially locked in whatever loss they took. And we know that people who have courage often buy in those markets, especially if they have long term horizons. So it's not surprising at all to see people move towards safety, especially if there's a little bit of an uptick. Right. They're like ooh, let me move over before it drops again. Is it concerning? Yes, because as we also all know, it's not the time, it's not timing the market, it's time in the market. You don't want to move out at the low and move in after it started to move up. But it's really to be expected in a lot of ways. People are scared. People are scared of what's coming. They're scared of global volatility. [22:12] JD: New yeah, that some. There's a lot of big change happening and no one really knows what that's going to look like. We don't have a test sample to see what this will look like in the future. Which by the way, Brandon's got one there for you is true of, of lots of times in markets. I mean I want to be the know it all here, but most of the time smarty pants people don't know what the future of the economy or the future of the markets holds for you. It's all just guessing games in certain ways. But Chad, I want to go to you on a more basic level. They, in this article it said that people see the markets fall on a Friday and they lock in their 401k changes on the weekend and then those kind of get realized on a Monday morning. And kind of, to Deb's point, I think it's safe for me to assume that it's not as though these people's risk tolerance had changed on Friday. Risk tolerance per their long term goals for their retirement. So they literally are making these trading moves that to Deb's point could be done at the wrong time. So my question to you on the target date funds specifically. Like I thought target date funds were built for people to just like let it ride, like it makes all the decisions for them. Why the fuck are they jumping in there and moving it out? Because markets are crashing. [23:29] Chad: Well, that's, it's, to answer your question, it's because we all think we're smarter than the markets have shown for the last, I don't know, 70 years. And people try to time it thinking they're outsmarting, they're going to, they're going to get out before it takes its full dive and they're not going to do as bad as everybody else. They're, they can, they can do this. My question, JD Though, as I looked through that article, it doesn't talk about money specifically coming out of target date funds, does it? [23:56] JD: Yeah, it does. [23:57] Chad: It does. [23:58] Justin: Specifically. [23:59] Deb Rubin: Didn't it talk about equities moving into stable value and money markets? [24:03] Chad: It did, but I didn't know it specifically target date funds. [24:06] JD: It said 94 million or 32% of it flowed out of target day funds. Yeah. [24:11] Chad: So I'm I missed that component. Well, so my, my thought was going to be that these are going to be high net worth folks that have advisors that are deciding to move money. But if it's coming out of target date funds, and that's a wrong assumption because those aren't the people who are putting their money in, in the target day fund. So I don't know. Yeah, they're, they're, they're reading media, they're following their, their heart in their minds rather than what years of statistics and data have shown you what to do. [24:42] JD: I think you just nailed it, Chad. I think you just nailed it. Normally people who make these moves, these high traders you're talking about, I'm going to drink for this one, just for fun, are watching cnbc. But now this particular subject is across all media platforms because it's very political in nature and so I think it's reaching a wider audience that all of a sudden is going, I need to move my money out of the stock market before my 401k gets cut in half again or something. Which by the way, to give you some clarity, since that date I believe the DA was down seven and a half percent. Like not, that's not great. It's been a short period of time and we've definitely, it's definitely been gnarly. I think we were up at like 4, 300 or something and now we're you know, pumping just below 40,000. But it's, it's not the end of the world. We've seen things like this before says the drunk surfer. [25:38] Deb Rubin: People get scared. People get scared, scared, scared. And that when that trigger button happens, they want to move to safety and that's what we're seeing. We also don't know what's coming, you know, so is there another, you know, is there going to be another round? Who knows, right? [25:55] JD: Yeah, who knows? Or do we, do we, do we turn around and then in eight months time the Dow's at 50K and, and you look back and then it would be a real bummer if people locked in those, those losses and then worse because what usually happens is they forget to reinvest, right? They know the trigger to get out because they're scared, but they lack the trigger of when they're going to get back in. They've never said to themselves now, okay, but what is the news thing I'm going to read or hear that's going to tell me to put my money back into the market? And unfortunately it's probably going to be much further down the path where they realize, hey, Dow breaches 50,000 and then that's their trigger. And that is basically the worst investment methodology strategy you could have on the face of the earth. Close this. [26:43] Chad: And when they're getting their trading thoughts from media. Well, positive markets don't necessarily sell. People watching television and media. It's the fear. And when you turn on any of those shows, that's what they're selling on the fear of what's next. That's what people tune into. Look at your nightly news. It's, it's a scare tactic because that's what people tune into. So they're not going to get the news that tells them to, to get back in the market. [27:09] JD: JD and great comment from Kyle because Kyle, you're right. I, I, the other media as like the fear mongering and I look at the financial networks as, as truth. Shut up, J.D. that's not true. They love to, to fear monger and catch your attention because they're all in the business of selling pharmaceutical ads. Right? So I don't know. Whoa. We got really political there for a moment. Not. Okay, cool markets. Yeah, we'll keep a look at them. I think today was down again, but we'll see, we'll see, we'll see. [27:42] Deb Rubin: I've stopped looking. Personally. I figure if it's, I'm not going to do anything different. It just means don't look to keep my stress level contained. [27:52] JD: Yeah, yeah, I, that's a, that's what Rogue Guy does. And he's one of the best stock pickers on the planet, Deb. So I'll teach you more about that later. All right, let's, let's freaking. Let's go to another headline. I titled this article myself, but it's got a different article title. I titled it Everybody loves everything about PEPs because they're the bestest things in the whole wide world. Wow. Yes, I will drink. Here is an article from Plan Sponsor. [28:31] Chad: I mean, an ad from Standard, right? [28:33] JD: Yeah. Thank you, Chad. [28:34] Justin: Glad you thought that too. [28:36] JD: By the way, if, if Plan Advisor is spelled with an E, can't they spell Plan sponsor with an e? 2. That would be cool. I'm just out. Okay, Chad, you're stealing my thunder, but I like it. Maybe you should kind of go with this a little bit. So did you read this sucker at all? [28:55] Chad: I did and it obviously felt like a sales tactic for the Standard. Every quote, every number, every data point I felt like came from the standards review and study. [29:09] JD: Deb is. Hold on. If, if I was the standard. And I offered a pooled employer plan. And 300 or at least 300 clients that I could get to respond to my survey were these clients that I moved from a traditional or somehow sold into a pooled employer plan. And those 300 came back to me and said that. That they were encouraged by their change and they were happy with their new plan because it was lower cost. By the way, that. That's an impressive group of 300 that know that their. Their pooled employer plan is a lower cost than their other options. Because I dare I say that's true. And someone fed them that baloney. But. But then the next thing they're saying is not only are they happier with this choice than their. The regular plan, they're apparently happier with their advisor. Their advisor is. [30:01] Deb Rubin: I thought that was. I thought that was really interesting too, when I read that It's a Better World. [30:06] JD: Take. Take away. What? Take away. Join this love fest. Deb, tell us all about how happy people are in their pooled employer plans. [30:15] Deb Rubin: Well, I. My heart sang when I read this article, of course, because of my love for pooled programs for different people. These surveys are all funny, you know, you never exactly know what. What's motivating people to respond in different ways. We know why most employers opt in to pool plans, and they opt in because they want greater fiduciary support. Typically, they typically see other benefits as well. So I don't know where any of these employers came from, and I don't know what this package looks like. But if they get extra services, they have less that they have to do themselves, and they feel like they're getting a competitive price, then it would make sense that they would be happy with what they have. [31:09] JD: But the thing I was really happy. Deb. Deb. Like two weeks ago, I. I got these little drops that I put in my water. They're like hydrogen gas. And apparently they're like, gonna give me lots of energy and solve all of my health problems. [31:25] Deb Rubin: And did they work? [31:25] JD: I'm so happy I've been dropping them in my water. And if you ask if you surveyed me right now, it's changing my life. [31:33] Deb Rubin: Of course it is snake oil. [31:36] JD: And it's done absolutely fucking nothing for me. But, yes, this serve. I agree with you. I think asking client. When you. When you feed up surveys that already have in mind the answer that you want them to have, and then you package said surveys and run out to the industry's media organizations to put them out there, as Chad put some type of ad You've lost me. Like, if you want to make a point for pooled employer plans, do it in a different way than this. The standard, like this is bullshit as far as I'm concerned. Like actually go out and show me some proof because one thing. Well, I'm not going to go down the. I could get really heated here, Devin. I won't continue to here, but I've got a great study that I will plan to pull out here in the next quarter or so that proves once and for all that pooled employer plans are actually more expensive than standalone plans. And Deb, this should not come of a shock to you because they should be. Because as you just mentioned, they offer additional services that typical standalone plans don't offer, which would mean they would be more expensive, more services, more, more expense of those services. So the pure fact that these are cheaper, which I think most plan sponsors think sounds attractive, is just not true. And then the next thing of the whole relieving them of fiduciary responsibility. First of all, we know that that's not entirely true either. They have to hire their pooled plan provider. They have to monitor their pooled plan provider. They still have lots of responsibilities as it relates to managing this plan and they can. Oh, we get fiduciary services. We live in a world long before pooled employer plans where you could get 316 services, 338 services. Third party administrators all across the country, which I know Deb, you've supported throughout your career, have been like little old plan providers for the last 25, 30 years. That's what they've been to 50 years. That's what they've been doing is helping people dot their I's, cross their T's. I'm so sick of this and I would like to just tell everyone right now, let's just call it what it is. A new form of plan came out and every record keeper out there sat in their boardroom and decided we should offer one of these because it's a thing. Some people are talking about it and I know darn well a lot of those committees sat down and thought even if it only gets 15% of the market share, we don't want to be left out of that 15%, which I will lay over and die on that. That's fine, go on, continue to, to drive our industry in this direction to get your 15%. But please stop with this type of stuff. Okay, standard. Go ahead, write us the emails tomorrow you can. If you don't get to them on Friday, send them to us on Monday. I'll be looking for them. You little. [34:37] Mark: They won't, they won't be realized until like Thursday if you send an email to JD though. [34:43] Deb Rubin: So let me just say this real quick. Many of the points that you're making are spot on. So I don't believe that when a pooled employer plan is sold as cheaper, that's necessarily the best strategy. What you said though, is absolutely accurate. Given all of the services that a client gets, they typically get a very competitive price. So what you see is that you're not really comparing a standalone single employer plan to a pooled employer plan because most standalone single employer plans don't have all of the extra services wrapped in. Many are working with a third party administrator. Many. I mean, that's been my. So much of my career. And everything that you said is right, the third party administrator. [35:34] JD: Let me be, let me try to be calm like you. And let's go back to square one too real quick and then we can move on hold. Employer plans were created and approved by the government, by the people representing us in Washington, District of Columbia, because they were sold as a lower cost option. Deb, those people approved it because we came to them and we said, wouldn't [36:05] Deb Rubin: it be cool coverage? I think it's. [36:08] JD: Hang on, I'm going to get to the coverage part. I'm going to get to the coverage part. Wouldn't it be cool? But this is the main reason why fish hook was put in their mouth and they were drawn in. Wouldn't it be cool if we could use economies of scale and we could pull together, hence the name, and we could pull together all these very small plans. Startup plans. Because you just said coverage. Right? So those are very small. And we can get all those together and we could get them $500 million pricing or billion dollar pricing. Like, wouldn't that be a great thing? And every one of those congressmen and women were like, yes, this sounds phenomenal. And so the whole point was for startup plans, as you just mentioned, to solve the coverage gap. Okay, you ready for this? Third party administrators work with startup plans all the time. You know what startup plans don't want? They don't want premium services. Chad, Justin, Mark, When's the last time you sell a startup plan a338 or an in depth316 that can check all the boxes and do all the things for them for an extra X, Y or Z that just doesn't play out in this space? They want to keep the cost low because they're just trying to put a plan in front of their employees for lowest cost which to me is why guideline human interest betterment and all these disruptors have seen so much success, much more success than the pooled employer plans is because they understand what those coverage gap needing employers want which is low cost, not all these premium services on [37:43] Chad: top but they so that the way I would articulate this JD and I threw it in the chat bar a little earlier. They they don't want those services but they need some of them and Moody [37:59] JD: getting along just fine. [38:00] Chad: I'm giving Moody another credit here. He just wrote it up top. A full Census Feed solves 90% of the problems that a 316 service is designed to address. And you're absolutely right. So Moody's statement there is flawless in my opinion. Even as made up statistic. If we spend time with these startup businesses and you align payroll integration and you set up a clean adoption agreement that will easily operate within the company demographics and you have a good record keeper that can track eligibility, send out notices and you have an advisor that understands what's needed from a core menu and operates maybe even as a 338. You don't need a stated 402A, you don't need a 316. You don't need to pay for those things. There's no additional service. They're not independently checking to make sure that the plan fees are reasonable and the advisors doing their job. There's conflicts of interest everywhere. You don't need it. [38:58] JD: Yes. How about one minor kind of evolution of that. If you read Deb, if oh my God, if you read all these food and player plan contracts it really is like fiduciary light services. They're not willing to take real responsibility for a lot of these things. It's in the small print and it's all relevant to what data they're getting and how they're getting it from the client. And so I feel like we're doing a real and this is why you might say Deb, you might say J.D. why so upset? Like why not just let there be other things, competitive tools, each of their own. Everyone can find different things they like. And I'll tell you why. It's because our clients, these, these prospects, these employers, these plan sponsors and these future plans to help this coverage gap. They trust us as an industry to guide them and lead them and if we're going to snake oil them and sell them things that aren't really true and try to teach them by the way, that they don't have to be responsible for anything when really in the small print it says that they actually do and try to fool them by the number one bullet point saying lower cost and tell them all the things they want to hear. I think we're taking our industry down the wrong path and I think it'll come back to bite us. And I think that what we need to do is actually rise up, have a little more integrity. We've been doing a great job for small plans for 25 years. There's no need to create some new freaking, what do we call it, mouse trap to try to sell more. That's wrong. Let's do the right thing. Let's do right by our clients. [40:37] Deb Rubin: And ready, go. So I have a couple of points. A lot of the things that you said are spot on. One huge thing for everybody to know is all pooled programs are not the same and clients need to read the fine print. Guys, do you remember a time before 316? [41:00] Chad: Oh yeah. [41:00] Deb Rubin: That long ago. Right. And then 316 became 316 full service and 316 platinum and 316 light and 316 this and three. And you had to start to say, well, let me look at your contracts because what 316even mean? Right. You see, the same thing happens in the pooled plan space. And I say pooled plans because. JD I agree with you. A pooled employer plan. I'm saying that on purpose because I don't want to have to drink something that I think, good, good, good. A pooled employer plan solves problems for certain kinds of employers. I'm a believer that pooled employer plans are actually best designed for plans that are growing very quickly or for plans that have real big issues with their audits and they need a professional organization involved like the pulled plan provider. [41:58] JD: I would agree with you if it was. I would agree with you if it was the right one. Like you just said, they're not all the same. So it's the right one that actually took on those things. But I, I just. Those are going to be very expensive. [42:10] Deb Rubin: It depends. It depends. There are some. [42:12] JD: No, no, it doesn't depend, Deb. No, it doesn't. That's called physics. So if you're going to do a lot of hard services that take time, energy and technology and things, it's going to cost more. That's how the world works. It's not a magic word. [42:26] Deb Rubin: Plan. 100. I shouldn't say always, but most likely if you're going to get a full suite of services, it could cost more. If you are a client that's approaching an audit and you're carrying a huge audit cost and a pooled employer plan helps you solve that issue, then that could be a very interesting and attractive reason to go down that plant program down that path. But you're right J.D. there are different kinds of programs. 100% sometimes. Look, a client that really wants to customize their program, a client that wants certain things the way they want them. [43:07] JD: Yes. [43:07] Deb Rubin: Agree likely is not going to be the right path for them. [43:11] JD: Oh, I don't know. Go ahead. [43:14] Chad: Can. Can we spend two minutes as a group and say where it does fit? [43:22] JD: Okay, so can I give an example? I We use 3A 316 service for some of our larger clients and it's. I would say it's fairly expensive. And I sit in on the committee review meetings for these clients with this 316. I think it's a great relationship. And I'm a third party administrator. So in a lot of ways this 316 is kind of overlooking the things I'm doing or kind of supporting my role. I think it's phenomenal and I think the client gets very like premium high level service. Like they can really count on their team to, to look over every nook and cranny. Again, it's expensive but I think they understand that and they get the value from it. My problem with this is that this was supposed to help the coverage gap and we don't need to sell expensive things to coverage gap things. But keep down your point Chad. So I do agree fiduciary services that you pay for can be phenomenal. Let's just not kid ourselves in the cost that's involved in them. [44:21] Chad: Well and so I get asked all the time jd People reach out and usually it comes along the line of hey, we have a pep. Are you interested? And then I have to tell them that we have pooled employer plan suck.org and our thoughts of this. But I always finish after the conversation that we're having now and saying but I'm not shitting on pooled employer plans as a whole. I'm shitting on them in the way in which we are using them as an industry right now. Where do they fit? They fit really well in my mind in low participation, low average account balance plans that are subject to audits, construction companies, restaurants who, who don't have a benefits person that understands the space that advisors don't want to spend a whole lot of time with those are fantastic fits for a pooled employer plan because the audit is going to be an issue because they don't have someone that understands the space to run it from an. From a humans resource perspective. So there is a space. There is a space I think with advisor shops that have a bunch of micro plans that want to create a single lineup, a single offering, a kind of single point of contact, a single service model. I think that could be a good fit. [45:40] JD: Yeah, okay, but just for a second. [45:42] Chad: But that's not how we're using it. I get it. [45:44] JD: There's only been a sentence, Deb. Then you go. But Chad, you could do all those things before pooled employer plans. Go ahead. Debt. [45:51] Deb Rubin: So a couple things. I think the pooled employer plans part. Look, none of us can ever get. Maybe I shouldn't say this, but I will. We can't get into the minds of our leaders in Washington D.C. so we don't know what they were really thinking or not. And we don't know what they were drinking and what they weren't drinking when they were working on all these different things. [46:13] JD: Well, can I ask. Jim said this in the chat bar. I honestly going to stand by this. I think we're pretty clear where their decisions came from. I don't think anyone would have pitched to them pooled up player plans if the benefit was relieving plan sponsors of their fiduciary responsibility. It was a cosplay. It was a cosplay. Everybody. [46:35] Deb Rubin: They created the ppp, which was. [46:40] Justin: Got her number one. [46:42] JD: What are you drinking? [46:44] Deb Rubin: Something really gross and disgusting. All right, what is it? [46:50] JD: My husband has a transition. Put it right in front of you. [46:54] Chad: Put it right in front of you. [46:57] JD: Right in front of your. Your chest. [46:59] Deb Rubin: Can you see it? [47:00] JD: Yeah. [47:02] Chad: Straight rye. [47:03] JD: What do you got? [47:03] Deb Rubin: It's disgusting. It is straight rye whiskey. [47:07] Chad: I bet your husband loves it, doesn't he? [47:09] Deb Rubin: He does, yeah. I. He said, you're really gonna do this? I'm like, I hope not. I'm gonna really watch my words super carefully. [47:17] JD: You've done really well. [47:19] Deb Rubin: All right. I'm gonna make a really bad face. [47:23] JD: We will. You will pour yourself a little sip of that. You just take a sip. You know, you take a lot. We'll move on. We've touched on a lot of the same things. I feel like this conversation is evolving a little bit. I feel like slowly people are understanding all this and so I could go on for hours, obviously. [47:44] Deb Rubin: But I'd love to continue this debate at some point because I think the whole concept behind A pooled plan provider was about taking some of the fear factor out of setting up. [47:58] JD: Of course it was. Yeah. Yeah, of course it was. I'm just saying I don't think this would have. I don't think this would have motivated anybody to really move this along had it not been for the economies of scale pitch that was given. I just don't think that's sexy enough for everyone to do. They wanted to know that we can make plans affordable for small businesses. That's what runs in government, Deb. Like, make this affordable for the little guy. So it was all built on a snake oil promise, which wasn't true. [48:25] Deb Rubin: Can I say one more thing? [48:26] JD: Yeah, of course. [48:27] Chad: Yes. [48:28] Deb Rubin: So my. One more thing is there's different flavors of pooled programs. And the pep. Did I do that again? [48:36] JD: Continue your thought. And you owe us one. Go on. [48:39] Deb Rubin: All right, so the. The pooled employer plan was designed for a certain purpose, but it's not the only kind of pooled program out there. And what I'm going to say. And again, we're not going to. We have more things to cover tonight. But just like with single employer plans, there's different flavors. Just like with 316 services, there's different flavors. Even with 338. Different. Different. 338 providers, advisor teams, RIAs provide different services. So we're calling a pooled employee employer plan as kind of the big umbrella. But the reality is, is that there's different flavors. And we could. They were talking about pooled employer plans because they were in the news, but we could talk about other flavors. [49:24] JD: Yeah, yeah. Because those multiple. Those multiple employer plans, those were the bee's knees. Everybody couldn't get enough of those. They. They crushed it. [49:33] Deb Rubin: Wow. For a long time, since the 1940s. [49:39] JD: Yes, you're totally right. There are different options. We will move on. Although I do love Amanda. Hello, Amanda. Brandon, play. Play, Amanda, please. I love Amanda's comment, which was, it's all about coverage. Washington is all about coverage. And so from my pooled employer plan perspective, I agree with Amanda. It was put in place to help coverage, and that is not what's happening. Okay. Everyone then decided, how can we take this thing? How can we finagle it? How can we throw our marketing department at it? And how can we make money from it? How can we make our clients sticky? How can we generate revenue from other services? And this was not the marching orders that the pooled employer plan was given as it marched into Washington, District of Columbia to get some shit done. My show my last word. We will move on. Deb. Less. Let's mellow the air. Let's have some fun and let's play a game, shall we? Are you into playing a game? We don't. I don't think we have any music for this game. We call this game who would you rather. Don't worry. Don't get scared, Deb. It's much more innocent than it sounds. Okay. Do you. I had to pull this together on a whim because your career has spanned like different time periods. So. And if this doesn't work, it's fine. We can wing it. I've already thought this through. Do you know Josh Rundle? Do you know who he is? You do? Great. Okay. Head of retirement Solutions at Trans Am. I'm sure Ralph Desasto of quite well. Good. CC the dumpster is doing okay so far. I think. This I don't know about whether you know Wayne Park. You know him now, based on our previous conversations. [51:24] Deb Rubin: I worked for Manulife before it was Manulife John Retirement Services. [51:29] JD: Nice. Manulife John Hancock Retirement Service. I was trying to think of who a big wig would have been back in the 90s or pre 2000s and I. I just couldn't come up with a good name. I was on the spot. So I. I thought since Wayne gets a lot of attention on the show, he would continue the trend, you know, and. And. And include him. But give me a. Give me a big wig that you worked under. Worked alongside at Manulife back in the day. [51:55] Deb Rubin: Oh, I know. Tony Davis is on today. Tony, who did we work. I saw you out there. [52:02] JD: Yeah. Shout out. [52:03] Deb Rubin: It's been a long, long time. I mean, I know who my boss was. I know who. [52:09] JD: Yeah, who was your boss? [52:10] Deb Rubin: Remember Terry? I think her name was Weatherby. She was the head of TP Services in those days. Do you remember her? [52:16] JD: Yeah, I do know that name actually. [52:18] Deb Rubin: Yeah, she was Long, long ago. We had. We all of the very high ups at our company at that time were gym people. They all were. Jim this and Jim that. So I can see the gentleman my mind's eye. But his last. [52:34] JD: No problem. [52:35] Deb Rubin: Jim o' Malley was there when I was there. [52:38] JD: No problem. We love our people at Manulife John Hancock Retirement. God, it just slides right off the tongue. I'm starting to get used to it. And I. I'm going to try to come up with some new names for plan design consultants on the next show that. In that same vein, we'll see what I can come up with. Okay. This is how who would you rather plays out when you think of Josh, Ralph, and Wayne, who you don't know, but you know who he is and you know that he's very good at getting back to people on LinkedIn, private messages. I'm going to give you three, three options to. To hang out with these people. I want to know which one of these three you would want to be your new chief executive officer of a new record keeper that you are going to start or work on with this chief executive officer over the next chapter of your life. Just pretend. I know you're kind of hitting a new phase now, but let's assume you're going to have this new grand record keeper. Who would you want the chief executive officer to be of these three gentlemen? Additionally, who would you let. Do you have kids? [53:39] Deb Rubin: I do. [53:40] JD: Okay. Imagine them when they're younger or even now. Maybe they're trouble causes right now and they need to be watched. Who would you want to babysit your children of these three gentlemen? And lastly, who would you want to party with? And by the way, what's your idea of a party? Deb Going to the lake for the weekend? Is it Vegas? You go into Europe. What does Deb Rubin's party look like? [54:02] Deb Rubin: So, well, party is a big, broad word, right? I love to be out. I love to be in the mountains, so. But that's kind of relaxing time, right? I love to be around friends and family. And I am very excited because I'm actually going to Europe next month and love to travel. So what kind of are we talking about? [54:26] JD: Imagine. Let's imagine the third question is, which one of these gentlemen would you want to bring with you on your trip to Europe? Okay. [54:34] Deb Rubin: I don't know, like that question. [54:36] JD: Oh, no, he's got a tag along. He's got to tag along. New CEO of the company. Let babysit your kids and take to Europe with the husband. Whoa. [54:48] Deb Rubin: Well, I don't know Wayne. I do know Ralph. Ralph and I've known each other for many, many years. And Ralph, you know, runs TPA Distribution at Voya. Um, save it up, Josh. For a long, long time. So. Whoa. These are great questions. So it's hard to pick a chief executive officer when you don't know everybody. Um, but I think just because I don't know him, I'm in a new phase of life. I'm going to pick Wayne to be my CEO because I have no history with him. So I get to be a. I get to be a boss. Right? [55:22] JD: That's a good Call Deb, because he's definitely busy running the company and not responding to LinkedIn messages. [55:28] Deb Rubin: There you go. It's more, more important to focus, [55:32] Justin: I [55:32] Deb Rubin: think, for watching my kids, I think. [55:38] JD: Huh. [55:39] Deb Rubin: Josh Rundle, I think he has four kids and he has. He lives in Iowa and, you know, he's got the whole farm thing going on. And Ralph has a couple kids. I'm guessing they're grown up because I've known Ralph for a long, long time. So go on a trip or go. [55:57] JD: Don't forget who. By making this decision, you're naming the new chief executive officer of this other big record keeper you're about to take off with. [56:05] Deb Rubin: Yeah, I think. I think I'm going to pick Wayne for that. He's going to be my chief executive director. [56:09] JD: Oh, sorry, my bad. He already did that. [56:11] Deb Rubin: He's going to Europe. [56:13] JD: Yeah, right. Europe. [56:14] Deb Rubin: I don't know if he's going to be Ralph or Josh. This is really hard watching my. Josh has four kids, so. Watching kids, probably Josh, he's got four kids and he's very busy doing all sorts of fun farmer things with his kids while working. And Ralph's just a really nice, nice, nice man. [56:32] JD: Okay, well, there you go. Congratulations to Ralph Desesto. The Firehawks are going to sponsor his trip to Europe for you, so we're going to pick up the entire flight [56:43] Chad: seat next to Deb as well. [56:45] Deb Rubin: There you go. And we can't talk about tpas, Ralph. We got to just talk about where we're going and what we're doing when we get there. [56:52] JD: Bring her up again. She owes me to take a time out. [56:55] Justin: You owe about five. [56:56] Chad: Yeah, you're about five drinks in right now. [57:00] JD: We'll cut the difference. You owe us two and a half because you, you will penalize in that several times. So you owe us two and a half of the whiskey and congratulations to Ralph. All, all sponsor paid retireholics trip to Europe. We'll put Ralph in the center seat between you and your husband on the flight out. So that's going to be great. [57:23] Deb Rubin: Lucky, lucky man. [57:26] JD: Last dive into your new. Your new gig. I should say that because you've been doing it for a while. Actually, it's now you're going to kind of focus on it. But you are in this mode. This mode of you always have been, of helping people with their, Their business, their life, organization, their success, planning, doing all those little hard things that it takes to be successful. But I want to talk more about things I. In the stress side of it. Your quote Here was. Our minds can be our best friends or our worst enemies. And me personally, this is why I put this to. Is like dealing with the stress of the day, the emails that are hitting my inbox, the things that people need or want from me, the people that work for me and the things that they need or want from me, my prospects, my partners. At the same time dealing with my life and my family and my children and my wife and. And all the responsibilities that go along with that. When we started this show, this today, when you and I were talking, before we went live, you had said that we're from a very corporate industry where people have a lot of certain expectations about things. So if you could, you're talking to a bunch of people now that live in this, you know, every day. Give us a kind of a holistic overview of what you mean by our minds being our worst enemy or our best friend and what you've learned about all those. [58:56] Deb Rubin: So I can take this question in a lot of different directions, but I know we're. So I'll just share this with you. So a couple years ago, I had the joy of going through a program called Positive Intelligence. And that's a. [59:11] Justin: Is that what they're calling AA now or. [59:15] Deb Rubin: It's a great program. And the gist of the program is this. Our minds. We think of our minds as being one thing that does one thing, but actually it's a super, super complicated body part. [59:27] JD: There are parts, except for Rogue Guy. [59:29] Deb Rubin: There you go. There's a part of our brain, predominantly our left brain, where in this mode of coaching, we learn that our saboteurs live. And that's the parts of our brain that beat us up. Everybody has a part of their brain that beats them up and keeps them anxious and keeps them nervous. And predominantly in the right side of our brain is where what I'll call beautiful emotions live, empathy and creativity and warmth and love and exploration and innovation and all of that, that's in a different part of our brain. But most of us spend our time fueling that left brain, that place where anxiety gets more attention and all those things live. So what you learn through the coaching process is how to first identify what's in your own head that's causing you. Your own brain causes. It sabotages you. It keeps you anxious, it keeps you stressed, it's doing all the what ifs, it's responding to stress. When you get a nasty email and you're like, oh, my God, what does this mean? Right? So what's really, really interesting as you Start to learn. As you start to learn and you start to take apart what sabotages you, what causes you stress and anxiety and guilt and anger and frustration. What creates the trigger? How do you quiet that noise? And then how do you activate that side of your brain that gives you the ability to think as clearly and [1:01:06] JD: really, can I, can I put this in some like real life context to me real quick? I'll be totally like transparent and honest. So my business right now is set up in such a way that if you really looked at my inbox, there's not that much to complain about. Okay. Like, my inbox is pretty mellow, like because of Chad, Mark, Justin, all the people on my team, they're the ones dealing with a lot of the hard stuff. But yet my anxiety driven brain, every time my phone does a little ding of an email has come in that I can't see yet my brain jumps to, oh my gosh, I wonder what that is. I'll bet you it's something bad that I have to solve. When the reality is if you really looked at a hundred emails that came into mind, none of them would be that way. So why the does my brain keep telling me that that's a negative email when the reality is it's probably a positive email? [1:01:58] Deb Rubin: You know why, jd? Because you're human. And I think you are. [1:02:02] Mark: Anyway, I was gonna say, I don't know. [1:02:04] Deb Rubin: We, we are wired toward negativity, the human species. And this is something really interesting that I like to share with people. We are physiologically wired in a way that every time something happens that creates stress for us, our bodies dump cortisol. And cortisol is the flight and fight hormone. Cortisol is what's designed to get your body moving when you're threatened. Right. So the problem is we have a massive cortisol epidemic in our country because we're under so much stress all the time. And what cortisol does that we may not realize, that none of us realize, is that when cortisol is dumping in your body, it actually shuts down your ability to think really clearly. So when you get that nasty email and you respond really fast and you wish you didn't, it's because cortisol is hyping you up. It's not letting you think clearly and you're acting really, really fast. So what's interesting is you start to learn these things. This is another thing, kind of like if we could teach our 5 year olds more about financial education, they'd be much more prepared in life. There are tools that I've learned over the last couple of years that have literally changed my life that I wish I had learned as a kid because so much of my life was stress driven, anxiety, fear based. Oh my God. I gotta get that done. If the phone rang, my first response would be, what's wrong? Right. You're right, Chad. 9% Chad. [1:03:39] JD: The people want to know what drives chad. I think 15 years ago, I feel like you ran hot. You're a perfectionist. You. You want to do things better than right all the time. You can't let anyone down. That I remember you calling me really upset that your calendar was so full that you had to tell someone you couldn't make a meeting on a Wednesday at 3. And I had to walk you off the ledge and be like, you just have to tell them you're busy, bro. Like, you're going to have to pick another time. [1:04:11] Deb Rubin: These are all saboteurs. Everything. [1:04:13] JD: I feel like you're more mature now. You're chiller. Am I wrong? And how much of that old Chad still exists in you? And is any of what she's saying relevant to what you're it. [1:04:23] Chad: It pops up. It often does. And I think I've gotten better over the years teaching myself that. And. And you've said this before, jd, we're not curing cancer. Like, I can't let these things get to me. I need to not let that left side of my brain sabotage what the right side is trying to tell me. I have created more balance in that and solely. I think it's because I've realized now that there's only so much we can give. And if you're continuing to take, take it in a way in which it's bringing out negativity. It's not worth giving anymore. [1:04:59] Deb Rubin: Let me just share a couple quick things with you, Chad. The drive toward perfectionism in the positive intelligence. I'm going to give you a little tool that you may just want to go out and test. It's a quick assessment to learn more about yourselves. It's free. It will tell you what are active saboteurs for you. So the saboteur, that's the perfectionist is called the stickler. And the stickler is a source of constant anxiety. Because when is perfect ever perfect enough? Right. [1:05:30] JD: That's not. [1:05:31] Deb Rubin: And who gets to decide what is perfect? So when you have a stickler, you're always trying to perfect and perfect and perfect. The other thing that I see a lot all over our industry is the pleaser. The pleaser we all know pleasers. Pleasers are people who give and give and give and give and give because that's. That's where they believe they add value. They don't know how to set boundaries, and they don't know how to take care of themselves a lot of times, from a nurturing perspective, because they're. They're. They're wired to constantly give. [1:06:07] Chad: So what if you're both, Deb? [1:06:09] Deb Rubin: A lot of people are, by the way. [1:06:11] Justin: You're fucked is what they say. [1:06:12] Deb Rubin: A lot of people are. So I really want to strongly recommend that you go out to the Positive Intelligence website. [1:06:18] Chad: I will. [1:06:19] Deb Rubin: I will even put this into the chat for everybody. But there's a little assessment. It takes about four minutes, and each. It will blow your mind when you get. [1:06:27] JD: You know what, Chad? You know what actually happens there. They. They start to play this music and there's this, like, rhythmic chime happening. And then underneath it all, it's saying, peps are good. Join the paps. I'll drink. I'll drink. No, Deb, let me ask you. I. First of all, there's an analogy to this in surfing, by the way, or big wave surfing. That, for me, connects here, which is not that I do that anymore. I would never. But they teach you about how your body reacts to. To drowning or, like, not having air underwater. And so they teach you, like, hey, this is what your body does, and this is why it does it. And so when you. When you see that you're gasping for air, your heart starts. Your heart rate starts to rise, or you're feeling this pain in your lower obliques, you're lacking oxygen. And the surfers who then understand that are far more calm in the situation and can deal with it because they're like, oh, no, no. This is what's supposed to happen. This is my physiology. I'm nowhere near death. I'm not about to drown. This is my body reacting to the situation. I know that's a weird stretch, but for me, what you're saying is if you understand how your brain's programmed and you can isolate it and be like, this is how I'm reacting to this. Even though it doesn't make that much sense, that's a great first step to solving it and reacting differently. But when I heard about coaching for performance and stuff, I want to see if you've got any skills in this other area, because I'd imagine the. This. I wouldn't call myself a perfectionist, but the person who wants to get done in me, but also think there's got to be a lot to coaching about, like accountability and showing up on a Monday or a Tuesday or Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and actually sticking to the plan and getting done the way you promise yourself to get it done. And I think I struggle with that sometimes. Where I show up on a Monday, I got my coffee, pop open the laptop, I mean I got some work and then you, you trail off down a project you shouldn't be on or you're, you're just not sticking to the plan of attack. Does that come into your coaching at all or is it all based on this stress type stuff? [1:08:33] Deb Rubin: No, no, absolutely. So again, I'm going to use positive intelligence. Again, there is a saboteur that gets in your way that's called the avoider. And the avoider creates procrastination. It helps you lose your focus and distract you from getting things done. So yes, to do peak performance coaching, I work with people on all sorts of things. So I work with them on stress and anxiety management, staying calm, keeping their brains as sharp as possible. But I also work with people to get to the things that get in their way. And let's face it guys, most of the times the things that cause us problems are the things that get in our way. Even stress and anxiety. I mean when I'm anxious about something, I can't think clearly. But what is my anxiety? How is it serving me? It's not. So when I feel anxious, I've learned to feel my anxiety. Where is it my stomach knots up, which drinking this, maybe a little. If my stomach knots up, right. That's telling me that I'm nervous. So if I, and by the way, I can be nervous about anything. So because I'm, I've always been nervous. That's how I, I've lived my life. So when it is acting up, I know that I'm in a triggered state. That's not going to be the place where my performance is going to be at an ideal. I'm not going to be able to think as clearly. I'm going to get more distracted. So yes, when you really coach people toward peak performance one, it's helping them to identify what they really want. Because most people don't know. It's helping them quiet the things that get in their way, their saboteurs, stress, anxiety, guilt, all those things. And then it's designing a plan with accountability to achieve the goals they set out for. [1:10:22] JD: I, I think there's some real, I think there's some real. I don't have the vocabulary for this but like, blockers to people accepting, like, personal coaching. Like, it doesn't seem that popular as it should be. Kind of push it away, like, oh, that's. That's silly. Like, I shouldn't do that. Which to me is crazy, because if. If. Brandon, I talked about this before we started the show today. If I wanted to make my. If I had a commitment to make my golf swing way better, like, I wanted my golf game to be really good, and I hired a coach to come down twice a week, map out a strategy for the next six months, come check in on me twice a week to make sure I'm sticking to the strategy, and maybe even some mental stuff came into play. I'm sure there's saboteurs in the golf swing as well. I apologize for anyone out there who's not a golfer here, but that would seem really normal. And I think most people would say, you know what, J.D. i'll bet you that's going to improve your chances at becoming a better golfer in six months. I don't think anyone would say that. It wouldn't. They probably say it's probably going to have a pretty big impact. Let's stop for a moment. Chad, what if I told you you could bring in a coach to help you become a better businessman, which is actually going to make you more money and make you happier as you do it? This should be flying off the shelf. You would think The. [1:11:44] Chad: The truth is, as you were describing, that JD is. I would love it if JD Carlson came to me and said, chad, I'm going to bring Deb in and we're going to make you a better businessman. What I wouldn't like is admitting that I need Deb. I wouldn't like to hire Deb myself. That to me, I'm admitting that I'm struggling, that I'm. That I have saboteurs, that I. That I could be better. That's the perfectionist in me, that I don't want to believe that there is anything better than what I'm currently trying to do. [1:12:14] Justin: But why is there a disconnect, though, between what JD Talks about? Like, people have no problem getting help for golf, but when it comes to [1:12:21] Chad: professional life, to me, it's employment. Like, I'm being paid to do the things I'm being. I'm supposed to do, and I should be doing them to the best of my absolute abilities without help. That's the perfectionist in me. It's. It's hard. [1:12:36] JD: That's a great question, Deb. Should it be the employer or should it be the employee who's an executive that pay for it. Both. Right. [1:12:42] Deb Rubin: I see both happening in. In my world. So what I'll share is this. A lot of people, and I'll just share this with you. A lot of people hire a coach with a business connotation. So I'll hire an executive coach to help me with leadership skills. They're more comfortable with that. Right. But what I'll share with you is that 99% of the time as a coach, once you start working with someone, a lot of what you work on becomes personal. Because what is getting in the way of you being a great leader? Right. It's the stuff that's going on in your head that's getting in the way of you being a great leader. [1:13:17] JD: What's crazy is small. I'm preaching the choir with you. But I would imagine, like, really small, measured changes would make a big difference in business and revenue and stuff. [1:13:28] Deb Rubin: Let me. Let me share my. My real story with you guys. I went to coach school in 2016 because my work life was falling apart. We were going through another reorg, and my staff was all super anxious, and they were all looking to me for support and guidance, and I had nothing left in me. I was stressed and I was anxious, and I just couldn't be there for them. So I decided to do something that I'd always wanted to do, which was to go to coach school. Why? I have no idea. It's just something I always wanted to do. So I decided to do it. And by the way, my company supported that effort, so I went. I never. I had all these logical reasons to go. I wanted to be a better manager. I wanted to be there for my employees. And just in case I got cut, I wanted to have a backup plan. Right? So what I didn't realize when I started going through coach school was that it was going to change my whole life. Things like dealing with stress and anxiety, becoming a different kind of leader, engaging, running brainstorming sessions in a different way. Because it wasn't all about me. So much had always been all about me. I needed to get my word in. I needed to do my thing. It didn't. [1:14:34] JD: Hey, Deb. Deb, don't take stabs at me right now while you're doing this. That hurts my feelings. [1:14:40] Deb Rubin: I was hoping you can express yourself [1:14:41] JD: without bringing me down at the same time. [1:14:44] Deb Rubin: You got it. The bottom line was, funny, things started happening. Like, one of the things that started happening was people wanted to know if I was medicated. [1:14:54] Chad: Yes. [1:14:55] Deb Rubin: People would say Excuse me. Have you started taking meds? My employees asked me if I was medicated. What does that tell you? So right there, how I showed up started to change. The ability to collaborate with people and really listen and bring out the best solutions changed. All sorts of things started. I started to realize that I didn't need to be validated by people outside of myself, which had been. [1:15:23] JD: But, Deb, can. Can I ask about if. If I don't have the energy or the desire to do this for Chad, Justin, Mark, and Devin and the team, I can just hire you. You can do it, and then I don't have to worry about them. [1:15:36] Deb Rubin: Right? Like, you can hire me to. To come in anytime, by the way. I'll tell you, there's all sorts of fun ways to do this, and there, in just a couple of hours of going inward, getting this knowledge, and raising your awareness, you have the ability to have real, meaningful change in your life. Or that was my experience. [1:16:02] JD: Or I could hire Nate Moody for, like, one tenth of the price, and he can just come in and tell you guys to get your shit in gear. Hey, that's. [1:16:12] Chad: That's under the impression that we don't have our shit in gear. Come on. We're doing pretty well, by the way. [1:16:18] JD: We did. We. I want to wrap this with. We did see several comments in the chat are about, you know, mostly men. I think of, like, oh, I'm. I'm above that. Like, I don't need to worry about this shit. You know, I got it covered. And I think that actually can be very true. I think there's a lot of times you can get yourself in a mode where you kind of fly above all the anxiety. Now. I don't know what's deep inside of you and what's happening, and maybe not. Maybe the things hunky dory, but. But I also think that if you're smart enough, this is why I brought the golf analogy, to realize that, yeah, even if you're kind of smooth sailing and you're like, I'm not stressing out every morning. I'm not. I'm not worried about things, but you still could be way better. And imagine if you applied some of these techniques that we apply to so many things. Again with my sports analogy. That you don't see happening in business that often. Like, I can watch YouTube videos all night about where my grip should be on the club and where I should pull the takeaway and what my tempo. I mean, it goes on and on. There's books written about it. Not that there's not books written about being a better business person. There are, but I just don't think a lot of people these days wake up on a Monday and be like, what's my plan? To be a kick ass 401k person for the next 6 months or the next year? And let me get that down in writing. Let me figure out how I'm going to be accountable. Let me. Let me make it happen. And I think we all should at some time, because if you want to buy Lambos, you gotta put the grind in. Remember, that's the 20, 25 vibes. You gotta grind it. You gotta get those Lambos. Let's vote for chat bar champion. My vote is for Nate Moody, and I will be voting for Nate Mooney for every show for the rest of the year, regardless. Just kidding. Not happening. Justin, your vote for Chat bar champion. [1:18:07] Justin: I was between him and Jim, and since Nate was, you know, kind of talking on the guest at one moment, I'm going, I'm going Samsonite. [1:18:15] JD: Okay. That's well deserved, by the way. Let me remind everyone, don't ever overlook the icons of the chat bar. That's not fair to them. If they're putting in a good night, give them the props. Roby, who you voting for? Okay, Deb, you're vote for Chat, our champion tonight. [1:18:36] Chad: I was pushing between. Between Kush, Samso, and Moody, but Moody was hands down, Moody was better. I'm taking Moody and it's because Moody had some significant content tonight. Not just. [1:18:49] JD: It's your turn this time. [1:18:50] Mark: Votes for Jim Sampson. [1:18:51] JD: Jesus. Okay, we got a Sampo. We got a Moody. Dab, who do you want to put into the finals? [1:18:59] Deb Rubin: I think I'm gonna. I think I'm gonna pass because I don't know. [1:19:02] Chad: You cannot do that. Katie. Katie Boyer was praising you the whole night, Deb. Granted, she was late and left early, [1:19:09] Deb Rubin: but is she still here? [1:19:12] Chad: No. [1:19:13] JD: She doesn't matter. She can vote for her. [1:19:15] Deb Rubin: Is Amanda or Shannon still here? [1:19:17] JD: Yep. [1:19:18] Chad: Yep. [1:19:19] JD: You want to vote for Shamanda? [1:19:20] Deb Rubin: I want to vote for Shamanda. [1:19:22] JD: Okay. Okay. It's Shamanda. It's Samson. It's Moody. Brandon, throw it up there. [1:19:30] Justin: Throw it up there though, huh? [1:19:32] JD: It's okay. Sorry. [1:19:34] Mark: I want. One of the representatives can still win. [1:19:38] JD: Justin. [1:19:39] Justin: Yes, sir. [1:19:39] JD: I want to thank you for showing up tonight and bringing all of your charisma, all of your love, all of your friendship fills you here every week. But like you do not know, nerdy Chad. Oh, my. Kidding me? The winner tonight is Shamanda. [1:20:03] Chad: Hey, I've been getting pushed. There's a lot of folks asking for another Shaman episode. [1:20:10] Justin: Yes, we need it. We do. [1:20:11] JD: We can make that happen. We can make that happen. Chad as well, thank you for being a phenomenal business partner and a great. Can he call you my. My right hand man? Is that. Is that degrading at all? You're my right hand man. I don't care. I'm going to call you that. And. And I wouldn't want another right hand man and robe guy. I love you from the bottom of my heart. You are the most handsome man I've ever known in 401k. And if I was going on a trip to Europe with my wife, I would in the middle of my row and take you with us. Deb, long overdue. You are an icon of the industry. People love and respect you. I can't tell you how many direct messages I got telling me how excited they were that you were going to be on the show and why hadn't you been on before? I didn't get a direct message from Wayne park about that, but he's not very active on that kind of stuff. But we thank you so much for spending tonight with us and having fun and sharing some of your insights. Even though some of your beliefs on pooled employer plans are really wacky and misguided. We still love you for that. And then thank to the haters, the standard. I can't wait to get your emails on a Friday or Monday. Looking forward to those. Love you guys up there in the pack Northwest. The standard I do. You guys are a phenomenal company. And then most importantly. Well, first of all, not most importantly. Second importantly is all the people watching the recorded version of this show. Love you. Thanks for tuning in, you little four 1k freaks. And then last but not least, the live chat bar people. You know we love you. It has been another episode of Retireaholics. We are changing the retirement plan industry one beer at a time. And we'll see you next time, people. We'll see you next time. [1:22:16] Chad: Thank you so much, Deb. You're awesome. [1:22:19] Deb Rubin: Have a great night. [1:22:19] Chad: Thank you, thank you, thank you. [1:22:21] JD: Play us out, Brandon. Play us out. [1:22:24] Chad: Good night. All. [1:22:34] JD: The.