Private Equity in 401(k)s & the TPA Survival Question

[0:00] JD: Canned. And then I followed that up with a fairly sober show that was probably worse than my super drunk show. But I think I got a balance going on right now. Feeling good. [0:14] Chad: Wow. [0:15] JD: I think we'll discuss our bourbons here. Here we go. You are gonna have a really, really bad time, sir. Let me up. You're gonna have a real bad time. Okay, here's the deal. I actually asked ChatGPT, I'll drink to write my segment intros for today's show. Never done this before. All right, so this is when you show up to the show and I like to hit you with something really like inspirational. Kind of my funny lead in. Here's what Chatty had written for me. Welcome back, you pension pilgrims. Glad you're here. Let's rock another episode of Retireholics. Yay. All right, thanks, Chat. Was that the first draft or I drank you? [1:22] Catherine Tibber: It has to do with the prompt. [1:25] JD: Chat, GPT did not write the following. I'll drink again. Sorry. [1:30] Chad: Hold on. Wait. Before my colleagues get mad at me. I don't have access to buttons right now. [1:34] Christopher Tibber: Okay, okay. [1:38] JD: This one is from me. This is. This is me going here. This is not. It's not Chatty. You know, we don't do enough of. On this show is talk about all the praise and adulations we have received over the years. Adjectives have been used like funny, more intelligent than you thought, innovator, industry's best. And of course, John Sullivan used the description of sexiest in 401k. Now these are all just describing me, myself, and not the actual podcast. But you know what's going on because I am J.D. carlson. I am your host. The best podcaster in 401K is in your face, Rick Unser. Suck on that, Josh Ito. And yes, even better than the precocious podcasting pair of Nevin and Fred. Now, politely, no offense to our guests today because they're nice people, but yeah, I even crushed the 401k couple best podcast host in 401k right here. And I'm joined by these three idiots. [2:45] Chad: Who the hell are those two? [2:46] JD: Started Justin intro, our guest. Ah, these bourbon drinking, world traveling, Lord [2:54] Chad: of the Rings loving freaks have created [2:55] JD: their own little cult following. [2:57] Chad: Built off an idea that's totally original, never replicated, and completely fresh to the industry. Co host of the 401K Couple podcasts where they sit on a couch and drink Booze while talking 401k. Their wearers of berets and funky glasses [3:10] JD: that make them look more like the [3:11] Chad: bad guys from the goonies rather than TPAs. [3:13] JD: But we're super chuffed to have them with us today. The founders of the Hunter Benefits Consulting group, everybody's favorite 401 couple, Christopher and Catherine Tibber. [3:22] Catherine Tibber: Thank you. Thank you, thank you. [3:23] Christopher Tibber: Thank you very much. No, no, no mistake. [3:27] Catherine Tibber: J.D. i wanted to say once at an American Funds conference, I used. I used Chat GPT. You know, I make it sound like a car. Yep. [3:38] JD: I know. She's doing on purpose. I like this. [3:41] Catherine Tibber: This is a veteran, so I asked it to actually write a fight song for tps, and it was a fight song. Eye of the. Oh, fight. Oh, that's right. Plan consultants. Okay, that's fun. Okay. [3:58] Chad: Or wizards. [3:59] JD: You can. [4:00] Chad: Wizards. [4:01] Catherine Tibber: And it's always Gandalf. It's always Gandalf. If you say Mickey Mouse. You can love Mickey Mouse. He's not the same caliber. But what I want to say is Chat GPT is good, and maybe that's the acronym Y. But I'm gonna have fun. [4:16] JD: Catherine, you can always finish your thought and then catch up. [4:19] Catherine Tibber: Okay. A fight song. And it was to Eye of the Tiger. And it talked and it sung about tp. It sound about Planet Consultants. Yeah. And so the reason to do that is, you know, they say the joke is every time, you know, you get a new person somewhere, you say, hey, we have a song that we sing at the beginning of the show. And you could have given them the fight song, jd. Okay. [4:52] JD: I've sang several songs on the show recently, and they've all ended very badly, so I'm just taking up some songs. [4:58] Chad: Not all of them. You've had a couple hits. [5:01] JD: Can you two tell me, Catherine, Christopher, what you all are drinking tonight? What? Bourbon. You're drinking. [5:07] Christopher Tibber: Okay. No, Cat. Okay, so Catherine and I are starting off with this brand new. Is it. It's few. It's. We're drinking local. It's Chicago. Well, Chicago area. And this has got some tea in it. It's very, very bourbony with. It's got. It's very interesting. It's very good. [5:26] JD: Very cool. [5:27] Catherine Tibber: Okay. It's a Smashing Pumpkins. [5:30] JD: That's right. [5:31] Catherine Tibber: It's done with the Smashing Pumpkins. Because Billy Corgan is from Chicago. It's a Chicago band, and he has a tea house in Highland park, and we've actually gone there for tea. Now, did we hear him sing? No, we didn't, but it's not so bad. It's. [5:48] JD: I love some Smashing Pumpkins. We've got more. Okay, Christopher, go ahead. [5:53] Christopher Tibber: And then I'm starting off with a Glass of that. But because we're in separate parts of the house, I've got my own Cobalt, which is also Chicago. Just plain old bourbon whiskey. [6:02] JD: Very nice. I just want to know your retail price because I've got Whistle Pig, Boss Hog. It's brand new. It comes out of a nice little coffin box. And this is about $600, which is pretty much what I paid Robe Gu by last month. So let's get it on tonight, shall we? Okay, I've got Toes. A little special announcement. [6:30] Chad: Ten thousand dollar toilet. [6:31] JD: J.D. yeah. No, I'm gonna drink this while sitting on my ten thousand dollar toilet while looking out the window at my two Lambos. Okay, let's do a segment. I am under the impression that before we get to the next thing here, that the Stacks team from Arizona, I believe they have gathered in front of what NU calls the big tv. And so I'd like to. Can you throw up a picture of the little I sent you? The Stacks do Artificial Intelligence team there. There's a few of them, just a handful. They're a much bigger. A much bigger team than that. I. [7:06] Christopher Tibber: Much bigger. [7:07] JD: No Stack. [7:11] Catherine Tibber: In and out. [7:13] JD: Just because. [7:14] Chad: These are the employees that got laid off and now they're working at in and out. [7:19] JD: Just because Nauru buys you a cup of burgers doesn't mean you have to do what he says. You don't have to put on the little paper hats and get in the photo for him. Okay. Call your human resources department. Let them know you have rights. Okay? [7:36] Christopher Tibber: Probably. AI. [7:38] JD: This is crap. [7:39] Chad: Yeah. [7:40] JD: My friend Chatty. Do I have this one? [7:44] Catherine Tibber: Yeah. [7:44] JD: My friend Chatty wrote this for me. This little setup written by Chat. Initial, initial, initial. Hey, Brandon, get ready to roll the graphic. It's headline o' clock for all you die hard nest egg nerds. Roll it, Brandon. [8:05] Chad: I wish you would read those with like your serious nature voice. [8:09] JD: Just. Hey, you hackler. I said human Resources. I didn't say the acronym, did I? [8:16] Chad: No, you did not say. You said letter, letter, letter or something when you said. [8:23] JD: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's start big, shall we? This article comes from Foreign Case Specialist magazine and is titled Empower Ads Private Investment Option to Define Contribution Plans. I'm going to read for you Edmund Murphy, the Chief Executive officer of Empowers. A kind of quote from this article. Empowers announcement. Today, a profound new move to broaden the investment investing universe for retirement savers. In alignment with top investment managers, we are now offering private market investments within defined contribution retirement plans. This was said by empowers President on LinkedIn. This landmark initiative. This landmark initiative, sorry, gives investors the ability to invest in an asset class that has potential to diversify portfolios and help grow retirement savings. To give you guys just a few tidbits of info, the Wall Street Journal reported on it and said that they're likely to charge fees ranging from 1 to 1.6%. Mind you, this is a very different, you know, investment type. These private equity or, or private investments. And then it seems that Empower is probably going to offer this through a, a manage account type of service. And then lastly, as you would expect, it'll only be a certain percentage of someone's portfolio. And, and Ed Murphy goes on to say between 5 and 20%. So I'm going to go to our guest first and I'm going to hit you up. Christopher, do you like this innovation and boldness from Empower to add something a little spicier to investment option 401k plans or are you thinking this seems a little off? [10:13] Christopher Tibber: It seems a little off to me. I'm going to pull the association of Elderly Retired People or whatever that really is so I can skip the drink. I don't remember what those letters are and I don't. It's just this seems half a step above having cryptocurrency in a plan, which I'm not a big fan of. [10:35] JD: I wish that was the topic. [10:37] Christopher Tibber: Well, okay, how do you have, how do you have daily valuation? What's the liquidity? How do you trust the value of these things? I'm sorry, this way. I understand somebody wants to be really risky. I didn't realize yesterday that they were specific with the defined contribution plans. This might be something for a defined benefit plan as well. Can I vote two thumbs down or be bearish? [11:03] JD: You absolutely can. I. I do believe they're dealing the, the liquidity of it by putting into these collective investment trusts and putting this managed account service and doing some type of deals. But I think the fees are interesting. Chad, I'm going to kick it to you. Let's talk about why they're doing this. Ed Murphy says to build a prosperous future retirement plan for, sorry, these CEOs and their things. I gotta. I'll drink. To build a prosperous future for future retirement plan investors. Which I'm thinking is what does prosperous mean? He's saying this type of investment can give you some kick ass returns, isn't he? So anyway, so what's the, what's the motivation here from Empower? [11:49] Chad: The motivation from Empower is a play at asset gathering Right. Number one, they're offering something that others aren't. Number two, they're shoving it into a managed account that will make them a sliver on everything that goes in. So yes, this is 5 to 20% of the portfolio of the managed account, but now they're fixed as part of that managed account. So if they're getting more money into the managed account, then they're getting a bigger spread on the dollars that are hitting their portfolios. So yes, it's, I mean as in any decision we make as an industry, usually it's in a way to gather assets. That's the effort here and it probably will do just that. [12:25] JD: Could it not only be an effort to gather assets, but also, and I'll, and I'll kick it to our guests here. I don't understand the, the underneath structure of these private equity investments in that when you say 1 to 1.6%, I don't understand expense ratio 12b1sub TA. I guess I'll drink twice. Like I don't know how these things are built and what kind of profit, what kind of profit margins are underneath them. Maybe Ed Murphy and power thinking, you know, if we get a substantial amount of assets in this stuff over the next three, five, ten years, this could really help us with our, our profit margins. Catherine or Christopher, your thoughts? [13:11] Christopher Tibber: Well, first off, it's Mr. Murphy's profit margins that are going to be enhanced. I wonder. I mean I, I'm very cynical on something. The people are going to definitely make money off of this, of course, are in power. And I'm thinking if this gets a little too widespread, there's going to be a lot of people that have too much money in this and they're going to lose the shirt because Christopher, it's [13:30] Chad: capped at 5 to 20% of the other portfolio value. [13:34] JD: Sorry about Christopher. Proportionally speaking, they'll lose their shirts if [13:39] Chad: you're tell me this guys and I in full transparency. When, when I knew this was going to be an article for, for Conversation today, I did some research specifically into private equity. Like I needed a better understanding of what that would mean within the 401k space. And as I walked away I thought to myself, if I'm looking at a risky portion of a young, I'm 41. If I'm looking at a risky portion of a portfolio, this seems like a really good play for potential high returns. [14:10] JD: It has heavily outperformed your typical mutual fund type investing over the last, I mean, you name the time period, Catherine, it looks like you have some Thoughts? I want to Carson. [14:22] Catherine Tibber: Yeah, I definitely do. Well, I think so. Christopher, you'll never have to do a reaction video again where somebody says real estate is amazing and 401k plans are boring. Right. Because here you get both of both. I think, I think that actually [14:41] JD: that [14:41] Catherine Tibber: it, it does make 401k plan seems sexier. Like I'm going to have my money in it for 40 years. I need to have a little bit more play with it than a target date fund. And so is it a great idea? It's, it's like a, almost a marketing idea. Right? Like a new thing to talk to the people when you go out and sell and maybe your 20, 30, 40 year old employees will think this is the coolest thing I can now do something cool with my investments. So. [15:13] JD: Catherine. Hang on, Christopher. I know we had you here for a reason. Yeah, that. I love that. [15:19] Chad: So. Right. [15:19] JD: That was on point. Phenomenal. Go ahead, Christopher. You can't better that one. [15:24] Chad: Well, I would. [15:25] Christopher Tibber: Okay, I am willing to change my mind. I am a good husband. I've survived for 40 plus years. And they. [15:33] Catherine Tibber: I'm not going to let you out of the basement with that. [15:36] Christopher Tibber: Okay, fine. They, with what you're saying. I mean, if this works out well, starting off as a 22 year old person doing Roth deferral and this continues to do well, that person could do very, very well 30, 40 years down the road. Let's see what happens. [15:56] JD: We're going to talk a little later in this show about target date funds and I've got some opinions about how they're all kind of cloning each other and they're just, they have the same glide paths, the same strategies and no one's willing to stick their neck out and remember this conversation right now about empowering these private equity investments and we'll, we'll come back to it. But for now, let's set up a new segment courtesy of Chatty or chat. What? Can someone Google that? What is the three letter stand for? Generative Something something. Let's just make it up. All right. Brandon, by the way, that the artificial intelligence really likes you. Brandon, I, I told it that you were a producer throws you into all these. All right, Brandon, spin the chili chariot. Who's Smirnoff Ice? Destiny awaits today. [16:56] Chad: I like this. If I. This is rigged. This is rigged. [17:02] JD: Yeah, we've gone back in time. This is. Guys. Catherine. [17:09] Catherine Tibber: Christopher. [17:10] JD: Well, well. Rogue guy drinks the smear off ice. I'll remind you and any new people that are tuning into this show we started this wheel of ice probably 10 years ago. And originally it would, it was rigged. It would always land on rogue guy. And that was the bit. And after a few years we moved on and now it's a fair wheel. But Mark thinks it's somehow regressed back to its mean. You know, it's. [17:34] Chad: You can't turn your head, Mark. We can't see you drinking it. You didn't actually finish it. It's just white Gatorade. Let's be honest. [17:42] Christopher Tibber: If, if you think there's Smirnoff, whatever this is in our house, you're sorely mistaken. [17:49] JD: I hate to make this all about us, but that's pretty much what I do a lot of the time. [17:53] Christopher Tibber: Okay, I, I need to go back about. Let's rewind about five minutes because when you say SAT with those three initials in a French accent, it translates to cat, I farted. So instead pay or however you say it, that's a French word. Okay. Okay. So just say cat, I farted, which is not an acronym and that counts for that large language model. [18:21] JD: I love it. I'm going to try that. I'm going to try that. I love that. That's great advice. While we're talking about retireholics history, I want to bring a new segment. I didn't get a chat. I farted to write this one for me because I didn't write one, but I'm basically calling it the rhetoric throwback segment. And back in the day, Chad did something for us. He embraced his nerdy Chad Persona and told us how he felt about safe harbor plans. Brandon, can you share this Brandon with [18:53] Chad: people who haven't seen it? Nerdy chat here. [18:59] JD: Do you like an ADP test? [19:03] Chad: Nobody likes an ADP test. Avoid your testing and set up a safe harbor. It will benefit you and your employees. [19:15] Christopher Tibber: Do not hide your face. That is quality stuff. Chad, I'm trying to figure out how we're going to redo that. [19:21] Chad: What? [19:21] Christopher Tibber: Are you kidding me? [19:22] JD: That. [19:23] Chad: That was like the 58th take. It took him to get to that point too. Because we drank for seven hours before we got to that thing. [19:31] Christopher Tibber: Yeah, Problem. [19:33] JD: No discussion is necessary. Let's move on to the next headline. This was a last minute ad from thanks to our retireholic community and specifically Brian Brasha. The article comes from Wealth Management. DOT commercial. That's what that's refers to the. Those three letters, dot commercial and is titled oh, I'll drink. [19:57] Christopher Tibber: That's what it's titled. [19:57] Chad: That's not an acronym. [19:58] Christopher Tibber: No, it's not an acronym. [20:00] JD: Really. Okay. [20:01] Christopher Tibber: Hub. [20:02] Chad: It's all one word. It's an abbreviation. [20:03] JD: Hub lands. [20:05] Catherine Tibber: It's. [20:06] JD: By the way, it's acronyms and initialisms. So if those three letters stand for something. [20:12] Chad: They don't. Okay, they don't. [20:14] JD: I'll say it again then. Hub lands. 1.6 billion minority stake from T row. Oh, that's probably one T lope. I said it twice. LED investment group. All right, here's. This is. This is again a last minute ad. Currently, Hub is valued at I'll drink 29 billion. I'll drink again with annual revenue of 4.8 billion. ANN. So the company is valued at like 6 times revenue for anyone that gives a. Screw all the details. Here's my question for y', all and I'll go to our guest first. And I hate to keep putting the conspiracy theories on you guys setting you up, but when a record keeper, and by the way, also a money manager, buys stake in an advisor shop, does this create a conflict of interest or concerns? What say you? Hunter Benefits. Sorry, you do not speak on behalf of Hunter Benefits on this show. You're here drinking bourbon and speaking your own. [21:19] Catherine Tibber: Christopher, what do you think? [21:21] Christopher Tibber: Well, I was going to let Catherine go first for this one. I do have a response, Catherine. [21:25] Catherine Tibber: I mean, it does definitely seem like, you know, will plans ever come to the. To the rest of us? They just go from one place to the other and it's. Yeah, I was until California. You never come out. But I don't know how you feel about that reference. Well, okay, it doesn't come out. [21:43] Christopher Tibber: Yeah, well, I'm really glad somebody mentioned conflict of interest because I would read through this article a couple of times, I'm like, why is this here? Because it's. What percentage is it? Six, seven percent. Okay. It's. It's a nominal interest. Yeah, it's a couple. [21:57] Catherine Tibber: It's. [21:57] Christopher Tibber: It's. [21:58] JD: Excuse me. Excuse me. It's 1.6 billion in total. [22:03] Christopher Tibber: Yeah, but the value is 29. The value is 29 billion. Okay. And I still is. I don't know, the people I've met, maybe. This is obviously, I guess, offense to T row. If you're a Hub guy and you've got a 55 million dollar plan and your choice is fidelity or. Or T row. Where are you going to put it? You're going to take care of yourself. They might weight their metrics so that they're more rewarded by having more money at AT T, you know, on the T. Rowe platform, but that seems to be a smaller Smaller stake. You're probably going to be more pushed to have this on the, the wealth management, wealth management side, more private equity than specifically on the retirement plans. [22:48] JD: Well, first of all. [22:49] Christopher Tibber: My guess. [22:50] JD: Yeah, first of all, okay, you made two great points. One, I agree. One, I agree with you in the concept that I don't think individual advisors at Hub necessarily are going to make decisions based on this relationship. Of course not. But it's possible that corporate pushes. [23:11] Chad: It's not possible. It will happen. [23:13] JD: Okay. And somehow over the course of the next 10 years, you look back at their book of business and go, interesting. Seems to have a lot of T row in there, whether that's investing investments or rec or record keeping. To Chris. Shit. Chris, for second point, you're 100% right. And that went right over my head. These people at Hub are not all 401k specialists or only do foreign. They're. They're wealth managing. They're helping personal clients. And I think you're right, Christopher. That seems to me to be a bigger area where this conflict of interest could exist. Let me also see, and I'm going to kick to you, Chad. Conflict of interest is okay. Did I just say that? No, it's okay for companies to invest in other companies and especially in the same industry, especially if they see that they're thriving and growing and doing well as. So long as that relationship stays prudent. But Chad, you seem to have a more, which I love, a more aggressive stance here. So go take it away. [24:15] Chad: I mean, I think we say it on just about every single show. This is all about access. And if you look at Thomas Rowe Price, the whole pitch here is we want access to advisors who are selling in the retire. I did. I know. I chat cat. [24:32] Christopher Tibber: I farted. [24:33] Chad: I farted. I chatted cat. I farted. [24:35] JD: I just did the same. You farted on the cat. Go on. [24:39] Chad: But it's a play at Access, right. You have Hub advisors who are prevalent in this space who are writing big plans, and you have Thomas Rowe Price wanting access to these advisors. Remember, they have a double play in this product. Yeah. Asset gathering. Absolutely. So they've got a double play in it with, with the record keeping chassis, but also with their asset management. And they're looking at it and saying, here we go. I get access to all these people who are doing K plans and all I need is a sliver. I just need conversation with them. [25:11] JD: By the way, T. Rowe, I think what you're saying now is a, is a sin here. [25:15] Chad: I don't, I don't know if it is. JD is not one, so it shouldn't. [25:19] JD: Is. No, no, it's just me is a massive leader in the target date fund space. And we all know that target date funds pick up the lion's share of assets in these retirement plans. So there's another little nuance. Anyways, we're. We're going deep here, and I think we're just jealous. I think we're just jealous. Go ahead, Christopher. [25:39] Christopher Tibber: Well, what I was going to say is probably going to happen is that the insurance company that got this infusion of cash is probably going to be giving a deal or more likely to give a deal on the target date funds. There's only so much you can do. Maybe for junior advisors. I don't know what the real name is. They have a certain percentage of their plans have to have the investment management. Oh, God. Yes. You're kidding, Chad, right? No. [26:14] JD: Yes. [26:16] Chad: No, I'm saying that that exists, but I can't see in this Hub positions themselves at this as this independent true consult. I can't see Hub falling victim to that. [26:28] JD: Wow. I think Christopher could be right. I think when you look when you walk those cubicles in those offices and you sit down with those younger rookies, they're definitely told what to do and how to do it and when to do it. And so. [26:40] Chad: Yeah, but are they paid in competition, compensated differently? I thought that's what Christopher was getting at, is that there's a requirement. [26:46] JD: Those practices may be gone and dead at this point. Catherine, I'm about to close this subject, so I want to give you the last call here. [26:55] Catherine Tibber: You know, I've heard that wealth advisors really care. They're trying to keep a relationship. Right. And so they're trying to keep. Keep, keep it in house and, you know, on the street. Thomas Rowe Price. Is that what wealth management clients really want? Or would they go fidelity sounds better or something else sounds better? Do you really. Are you tying yourself to a name that's actually going to make your clients happy? [27:21] Chad: But that's what JD's point was earlier, is that conflict of interests can be okay if what you're conflicted with is actually what's right for your client. [27:29] JD: And by the way, from the. In our space, that sounds great. [27:34] Catherine Tibber: You're conflicted by what's on. Going good for your client. That's. Yeah. [27:38] JD: I think the Thomas bro, I hate saying that. Does not roll off the tongue. Thomas Row Price target date funds are, depending upon how you measure them, are pretty phenomenal. Like, they're pretty Solid target date funds these days. So if you looked back and saw a high percentage of their clients using those, both personal clients and retirement clients, you might say, well, that's prudent. Like it's, it seems to meet all the marks, you know, and pass all the tests. But yeah, I don't know. Like I was saying earlier, I didn't get to spit it out, but I think we're all just jealous of these billion dollar deals that go down in these dark boardrooms where these people laugh at each other and go, finish it. This deal. And they finish it and they make tons of money. Go ahead. [28:22] Chad: You're right, J.D. let me finish it. With Katherine said earlier is like, it's left pocket, right pocket, right. You have these big institutions that are like, all right, this partnership has fizzled. Let's move our sales over here, exploit that one, blow this one up, transition all those assets, make a whole bunch of money here. And then when that one fizzles, we'll jump to the next. And we've seen that. Look at it with the, the record keeping wholesaler space. They crush a territory with one record keeper and they're like, I'm out. I'm going to go get a bunch of money on a guarantee. I'm going to take all my relationships and I'm going to do it somewhere else. [28:53] JD: We do have to move on because I've only allotted for a six hour show tonight, so I got to keep moving to these other topics. Good. Okay. [29:01] Christopher Tibber: So I'm missing both episodes of Matlock tonight, JD Is that what you're saying? [29:08] JD: Oh, boy. I'm gonna add. Wait, hang on, hang on, hang on. I need to make an adjustment to my note. Or dope. It'll just take two seconds. Matlock. Okay, let's. I'm gonna go. This is kind. It's not pop culture. This is business. But we don't do this a lot. I want to go out to YouTube, out to the world, look at someone talking about something and then discuss. I got two chief executive office officers here. Oh, I'm getting there. People starting to get a little drunk. I almost went with the ossifers. Almost went ossifer. So that's a good sign. Good sign. We got the skims Chief executive officer and we've got the Kim Kardashian. [29:57] Catherine Tibber: Yes, it is a Kardashian. [29:58] JD: The Jonathan Paul Morgan. That's wrong. That's wrong. Chief executive officer. And. And two little kind of viral CSA opinions. And. Or with the. I'm gonna drink with the J.P. morgan one. It was a hot mic. Like he. He literally so. But let's start with the skims. So let's listen to the Skims Chief executive officer. Chiefs. Chiefs. Play it, Brannon. Give me one second for that second. Oh, Jesus. No one wants to see your handsome face. [30:32] Chad: Not ready. [30:32] JD: He gets on there because all the chicks come out when he shows up. They're like, oh, it's Brandon, the producer. This morning, new comments on work life balance from the founding partner of SKIMS and CEO of Good American. Emma. Greed is facing scrutiny. [30:49] Chad: Work life balance is your problem. Like, that's yours to figure out. [30:53] JD: Greed. Appearing on the Diary of a CEO [30:55] Chad: podcast Monday, telling host Steven Bartlett she considers this a red flag in a job interview. So can you talk to me about [31:03] JD: work life balance in this organization? Sorry, babe, I'm leaving. So when somebody talks to me about [31:11] Catherine Tibber: their work life balance in an interview process, I'm like, something is wrong with you. The. [31:16] JD: Okay, Brandon, cut it, cut it. That's good. All right, Catherine, I'm going straight to you. So this woman runs a very big company. Obviously she was talking about the interview process, right? And I get it. Her perspective is, well, I'm about to hire you and you're telling. You're asking me about how I'm going to take care of your work life balance. Where this woman feels like your work life balance is your responsibility, not fucking mine. You come here to do a job, Katherine, you. Where do you sit on this debate? [31:49] Catherine Tibber: Well, you know, she probably has a posse of what, like 40 people who help her with her kids and her job and everything else. So there's a little bit like you're in this beautiful room that's staged perfectly and you're talking about work. You know, work life balance. Like. [32:04] JD: Catherine, Catherine, pause, pause. God, I love you. Continue. [32:10] Catherine Tibber: Okay, so there's a. There's just a little. And then also her talking about when she interviews people. Well, come on. She. [32:19] JD: Who is she? [32:21] Catherine Tibber: She's the last interview in the process. Like, the people didn't make it through. And I'll say somebody talking about, like, who actually, like, how crappy is your interview process that somebody asking bad questions makes it to you and really, like, the work life thing can be a thing. Thoughtful question if asked correctly. But she's punching down and it's ugly, so stop it. [32:45] JD: Okay, so Katherine very intelligently went after the chief executive officer of skims, and I agree with. With her comments. And I. You. You hit something, Catherine, that never dawned on me. She's not in the interviewing process. [33:00] Chad: No chance. [33:01] Christopher Tibber: I'm not in the interviewing process and my company's smaller than hers. [33:04] Catherine Tibber: It's like Martha's Stewart talking about all the time she spends in her garden digging. [33:09] JD: Yes. [33:09] Catherine Tibber: Yeah, she doesn't. Right. [33:12] Christopher Tibber: She does not paint the horses. Yes. [33:14] JD: Christopher, let me go deeper with you on the actual concept of the employer and the employee and the concept of work life balance. Whose responsibility is it? And. Or. Or can it be some type of symbiotic relationship? Like, how do you see this? You're an employer. You got employees. [33:34] Chad: Okay. [33:35] Christopher Tibber: Speaking as, without a doubt, the oldest person on this podcast, perhaps ever, I used to have the very boomer attitude. Now I understand that work and life, when you put them in balance, it does not like, you know, a combustible experience. Okay. The. It's part of culture. The woman has completely given over company culture over to entry level staff, which doesn't make any sense culture. [34:02] JD: The. The. [34:02] Christopher Tibber: The chief executive officer. The chief executive officer needs to have an input and a say in culture. And the concept of work life balance these days is definitely that. I mean, this person is definitely stuck in 2019 or before. Very. Doctor. Yeah. [34:20] JD: Wow. Interesting. Chad, wait. No, Chad. Silent J. [34:25] Christopher Tibber: Not really. Please. [34:28] JD: Silent J. Your. Your work life balance. Is that my responsibility or yours? [34:37] Chad: Oh, that's not a fair question because you. You're the first boss I've ever had [34:41] JD: that is all about what I've always referred to as life work balance. [34:44] Chad: Like, you care about that, right? [34:45] Christopher Tibber: You're. [34:46] JD: Don't tell the people that. I'm gonna take a different role tonight. [34:49] Christopher Tibber: We're gonna take that out. [34:50] JD: Slave driver. Yeah. [34:52] Chad: I hate working for you. [34:54] JD: And so I think we have a [34:55] Chad: different perspective of it where she got it wrong. I felt like is. She was speaking to an audience. Well, first she was very kind of just. [35:03] Catherine Tibber: She was. [35:04] Christopher Tibber: Sorry. [35:05] Chad: She was a. [35:05] JD: About the whole thing. Yeah, [35:09] Christopher Tibber: I think she'd be using a different word, Justin. [35:12] Chad: Oh, I like that one. That's one of my favorite words. I don't know if I could put it on here, but yet it is. I can't do it. No. [35:19] JD: Strength is good with an Irish accent. But she. [35:24] Catherine Tibber: She was. [35:25] Chad: She was speaking as if everybody wants to come work for her and should be privileged to it and they should [35:30] JD: grind and grind and grind. [35:31] Chad: Not everybody wants that out of a life. [35:33] JD: Right? [35:33] Chad: Like, you gotta. You gotta think about, yeah, there's gonna be employees. [35:35] JD: No, no, he's nailing it, Chad. The grind, grind, grind is what I wanted to talk about. So, Chad, you're a grind, grind Grind guy. If someone's gonna come work for you because you're our national sales director, I mean, do you expect grind, grind, grind, or do you want someone who's looking for work life balance? [35:54] Chad: I want, I want. I'm gonna say both. I want you to grind, grind, grind when you are working. I don't. If you are doing things efficiently and you are focused and the effort is there, you don't need what she said, which was to work seven days a week. Her comments were, if you're going to climb to the top of company, you're probably gonna have to work seven days a week. That's not the way it should be. Your expectation as an employer should not be. My employee should be working seven days a week. It should be. My employees should be crushing it in the amount of time that I expect them to get their job done when they are working. So, but, but let me, let me play the other side of that, J.D. and I'll be honest, one of our newer folks on our sales team was, was having a little bit of struggle getting running at the pace in which he wanted to. He's got a young family. He's pushing. And I said, look, let me be honest. The way I had success when I was in that position, I got up at 5 in the morning and I worked before my family got up. I'm not telling you you need to do that, but I'm telling you that that was successful for me. I had to grind, grind, grind to make it work. The number of hours in the day that I was supposed to work wasn't enough for me to grow the territory at the pace I wanted to. If I wanted to grow the territory for five years, then I could have worked eight hours a day. [37:06] JD: When my daddy called me and I was sitting on the beach in San Diego and he said, hey, son, I want you to come take over the family business. And I showed up and I knew that my daddy was going to give me his company so I could buy Lambos in the future. I also, like Chad said, was committed to showing up before any one of my employees were at that office. I got there before them and I stayed there before they left. Now, this was early in my career. A lot of things have changed since then, but in the beginning, I was grinding, grinding, grinding. And I will give the same advice to my children when they start off at a company. So I think there was a bit of a generational thing happening here too. Not to excuse Katherine, the chief executive officer of O Ossifer of Skims but that the younger generation wants all these handouts to them. They want all these, like, yeah, things to happen. And the fact of the matter is, I agree with Chad. You gotta work hard to make happen. Real guy, I would go to you, but everyone knows your opinion on this, so I think we should probably move on. Christopher, close us up. [38:26] Christopher Tibber: But impatience and work life balance are not the same thing. [38:32] JD: Impatience, okay. [38:34] Christopher Tibber: Oh, people want to. I've been here for six weeks. I need to be senior manager. No, you don't. [38:44] Chad: And remember, not everybody is the same. JD used this analogy when you interviewed me, which is you're not punching a clock or you're putting bottled tops on Coca Cola bottles. And that resonated. I'm like, you're right, dude. I'm not. I'm not sitting there. I don't want to work an 8 to 5, and I don't want to make $30,000 a year and. And spend the rest of my life there. I want the opportunity to succeed, and I will put in the effort and I will learn this space and I will grow. Not everybody's that way. And kudos to the people that know they're not. To the people that say, hey, I need to make a fair living and I'm willing to work, but I don't. I don't need to make X. I don't need to grow, I don't need to promote. I want a job. I want to clock in, I want to clock out, I want to forget about work when I go home. And I think that's fine. At least the way she positioned it where she got it wrong, Right? I agree. Just not everyone is the same by any means, from the same cloth. And hey, you know, jd, in your example, you had a much bigger carrot in front of you than someone who's just going to come in and. [39:43] JD: So true, Right? So true. That's a great point. You can grind 5am to 9 at night when you know you're going to be buying Lambos, right? Like, yeah. All right. Did I mention how much this whistle pig cost tonight? I mean, a lot. Okay, let's go to the next one. Brandon, I would like to play the video for the I'll drink because I just like drinking this guy, the JP Morgan one. This one's great. Listen up, people. Turn your volume up. A lot of you were on the fucking zoom and you were doing the following, okay, you know, looking at your mail, sending texts to each other about what an asshole the other person is, okay? Not paying attention, not reading your stuff. You Know, and if you don't think that slows down efficiency, creativity creates rudeness. It does, okay? And when I found out that people are doing that, you don't do that in my goddamn meetings. You go to me, with me, you got my attention, you got my focus. I don't bring my goddamn phone. I'm not sending texts to people, okay? It simply doesn't work. And it doesn't work for creativity. It slows down decision making. And don't give me the shit that work from home Friday works. I call a lot of people Friday. They're not a goddamn person to get a hold of. But here are the problems. They are substantial, which is the young. [41:04] Chad: This guy sucks. [41:05] JD: No rub guy. I'm going to let you start this off. Rob guy. I, I love that he's like, work [41:13] Chad: at the still shot of his photo. [41:16] JD: Doesn't work from Friday. Doesn't work. You know, people are calling Friday. Nobody's fucking got in there that actually happened. [41:22] Christopher Tibber: He must be calling advisors. [41:25] JD: He's calling his staff. All right, rogue guy, take a stab at him. First of all, what he's referring to is the work from home vibe is, that's specifically what he's talking about, is that he'd rather see the people that work for him in a live conference room where he can see them sitting around the table and he can talk to them. And these zoom meetings he feels like have made it a lot worse. So he's, I can tell you through context, he's specifically talking about people working from home through computers instead of being at the office where it seems clear to me he thinks he'd be held more accountable. Your thoughts, Robbie? [42:05] Chad: Well, I, I think the work from home debate is, is always going to be one that gets torn right down the middle. And I think it's always going to be dependent upon the type of jobs, the type of industry, the. Your employees. Right. I mean, I, I do think it all depends, right? It's a very gray area in my mind. I'm not gonna sit here and say that like he's right or wrong. What I'm going to say is I've been working from home for a while now, and I never want to go back to an office again on a [42:42] Christopher Tibber: day to day basis. [42:43] Chad: But I, but I do, I do. Like, like today I went down, drove [42:47] JD: down to Monterey, went saw some people. [42:49] Chad: I, I enjoyed that. I enjoyed going into those offices, sitting down, seeing someone eye to eye. And it did feel like, you know, a good use and productive use of time. [42:58] JD: Robbie. While I Have you. Could this also be a generational thing? Is he yelling at the younger employees that don't have respect for business that Chad and I discussed earlier? I, I don't, I don't want to [43:14] Chad: agree with that because I think that there are also young people who take their jobs very seriously and who are the ones who are going to be leading in the future and doing the right thing. So now I don't want to say that I think we all have our moments, but it definitely, I would say, trends probably more towards the younger workforce, for sure. [43:35] JD: Christopher and Catherine, at Hunter Benefits, you must have different ages of employees or different kind of generations. Do you feel like there's any validity to the difference in them and, and their, their opinion about what work should look like? Go ahead, Catherine, because I saw you biting at the bit. Go. [43:57] Catherine Tibber: So, I mean, we've had people from the older generation coming to work every day and almost getting nothing done. [44:04] JD: Right. [44:05] Catherine Tibber: Just because they sit behind a computer and smile at you when you walk by. They did. You know, we've had those folks. Right. So, you know, the whole thing is, I think it's the wrong argument of where the person's placed and who is the person and what is their worth work ethic and what's the culture and how do you motivate them? Do you know? And so if, you know, part of this is, I think we have a problem in this industry where, you know, I really worked harder. If I hand calculated every, with a spreadsheet, all the brokerage accounts. Right. Does that really make you a better person or is it better to. I'm going to do the shout out to AI. Have the AI do the work for you. [44:45] JD: You're right. [44:46] Catherine Tibber: And so, you know, I. Okay, I like missed. So it's going to be a generational thing that, I don't know the finger things, but artificial intelligence. [44:55] Chad: I was giving you two. [44:56] JD: That was just a you have to drink twice thing. That's all that was. Oh, fill that, fill that up, Catherine. Oh, my God. [45:05] Catherine Tibber: Okay, bringing it back up. [45:08] Christopher Tibber: You're my favorite. [45:10] Catherine Tibber: So I mean, you know, the whole thing's actually like people bitching, right? And how good. [45:18] JD: What? [45:18] Catherine Tibber: There's a difference between leadership and people bitching. And he's bitching, right? He's like, he's supposed to be what, [45:25] Christopher Tibber: the world's best leader and he can't lead culture. [45:28] Catherine Tibber: And so this, this is him bitching about his staff and oh, I've worked so much harder as he makes I don't know how many hundreds of millions of dollars. Yeah. He can work seven days a week. He makes that much money. [45:38] JD: Right. So by the way, he never, he never plays golf or goes on his yacht, so. But go on. [45:46] Christopher Tibber: Yes, other people do that. [45:47] Catherine Tibber: He has a yacht that he did. [45:48] JD: I'm kidding, Catherine. [45:51] Catherine Tibber: Right. I hire people to go on my yacht. So it, I don't know, it's like old guys bitching. [45:59] JD: Yeah. Yeah. [46:00] Catherine Tibber: Okay, [46:05] JD: let me, let me set you up though. I mean, I don't wanna derail your thought, but I mean this Venn diagrams from our last conversation a little bit, but. Because I think he is talking to the youth sometimes or different generations. He likes things the way they used to be, you know, and he feels worked for him. Business used to run well in the old days. So what I want to ask you is a totally off the cuff question is to Catherine's point, sometimes the old way looks good but is ineffective or not efficient. Is it possible, Chad, that we could have a future strategy of workplace where people look like they're kicking back or having fun, but they're actually getting a lot more done than this guy from J.P. morgan, Jamie Dimon, his name I believe. I'll drink for the other one. But generation. So it's like if they're getting more done, but they look like they're kicking back and having fun at the office, then, or via Zoom, then so be it. My question to you, Chad, is could the future be different? Like why do we have to agree with this? [47:15] Chad: Absolutely. And it wasn't until you guys all know the dingoes. But our friends who are from Australia, I say you guys, the Teppers, don't know them, but our friends are Australia. He's a developer and I would watch him work in the kitchen table, work on the patio, work in his chair, work at his desk, and he'd move around. By the time the day was done, the amount of work and accomplishment that that man had, I couldn't do it personally. I have to be sitting at my desk personally. But I looked and said if I'd watched him from an outsider not knowing that he was working all day, I would have thought he was just shooting the and watching videos. But he was, he was producing, he was productive. And it was an eye opening for me that not everybody needs to work like I do. They don't need to sit at a desk and get their shit done. People work better in different environments. And I needed to be open to that. And I think that as a whole we all need to be open to that. Some people Will work better from home. Some people will work better from different locations. And bouncing around and being on zooms and never seeing another physical human being during their day of work. That's fine, but you have to be able to monitor that. [48:25] Christopher Tibber: I generally come in at least 15 minutes late. [48:29] JD: Yeah, I use the side door. That way lumber can't see me. And after that, I just sort of space out for about an hour. Hey, space out? Yeah, I just stare at my desk, [48:43] Christopher Tibber: but it looks like I'm working. [48:45] JD: I do that for probably another hour after. After lunch, too. I'd say in a given week, I probably only do about 15 minutes of real, actual work. [48:56] Catherine Tibber: I need to drink to watch this. [49:02] Chad: Times are changing. [49:04] JD: Christopher. If you have a thought, close us out. But I gotta go. [49:07] Christopher Tibber: Just very, very quickly, it. Whether it's a zoom meeting or a in person meeting, Jamie Dimon is not setting his expectations for the meeting very clearly as to what he expects from the participants. And that's a failure on him. [49:27] JD: Fair enough. Fair enough. I. I have. I have a weird fascination for wanting to be that old school, hardcore business guy. Like, I don't know why it fascinates me so much, but. [49:38] Christopher Tibber: But I looks cool in the movies. [49:40] JD: Yeah, maybe. Maybe. If any of my employees are listening in, better work hard and make me lots of money, they shouldn't be listening right now. [49:50] Christopher Tibber: Aren't they supposed to be working? [49:52] JD: No, there is no. They're at home with their families now. We're in the west. [49:55] Chad: After five. [49:56] JD: Yeah, yeah, it's early. Okay. This is Christopher. Sorry, Remind me again of the French phrase we're using tonight that. [50:06] Christopher Tibber: I farted. [50:07] Catherine Tibber: Had. [50:07] JD: I farted. This is brought to you by Chat Cat. I farted. Brandon, God damn it. He loves you, Brandon. He or she. Brandon, roll in the pop culture gauntlet. Shall we noer dope? Shall we noer dope? Catherine, Christopher, this. Do you even know what's happening right now? Okay, this is the totally original no or dope game. I came up with this. I was. I was surfing, actually. I was on a wave. I was sitting on the wave Yogi style. And this idea came to me. Let's have this segment on the show. It's called the totally original noperdub game. No one else came up with this but just me. No one else. And it's a thing where I'm going to talk about pop culture. I'm going to ask you about a subject and you're going to let me know whether you're dope on this subject or you're not. Subject. And you tell me why the first one is. And I'm gonna go to you first, Catherine. It's a combo. It's a weird combo. We don't do this often on this, this topic, this segment, but it's a weird combo. Berets and what I'm gonna call flat caps or newsboy caps or what I personally would call peaky blinders. And by the way, I didn't know that you both would be wearing these tonight when I wrote these words on my iPad. But. But go on. Note your Catherine on these. And wine. [51:59] Catherine Tibber: Dope on. Dope on these. I mean, I love them. Do you know. And practical as well as fun. [52:08] JD: And explain the practicality. [52:11] Catherine Tibber: Okay. Like do you have to curl your hair? Do you have to have bangs? [52:14] Chad: Right? [52:15] Catherine Tibber: I mean, it's. It's practical. Put it in the suitcase, it doesn't get crumpled. You know, it's. And you are original when you wear it. Even in France, you are original because nobody else is wearing them. Flat caps. You know, I'd say they fit better than baseball caps because when I wear a baseball cap, it kind of moves up and does all sorts of strange things and. [52:39] Chad: Yeah, that's because you have hair, Catherine, by the way, not an issue. [52:42] Catherine Tibber: Okay. [52:43] Chad: Baseball cap doesn't move. [52:44] Christopher Tibber: Yes, but that's why I wear this, by the way. [52:48] JD: Oh, sorry. She's got more. Go on, please. [52:50] Catherine Tibber: I was just gonna say, you know, and we do have our favorite hat shop in Seattle that we go to all the time. And she just hits us up with really great hats. So when you ask if you ask if it's nope or dope. I mean, I have at least six berets, right. And I'm always looking for more. [53:07] Chad: So by the way, it's more impressive that you have a hat shop in Seattle and you're not in Seattle. So that's amazing. [53:14] Catherine Tibber: What she says. Here's my Chicago friends. And Right. One time she even opened up a bottle of champagne for us and we chatted for a while. [53:25] JD: Can I let you guys know, Catherine, Christopher, our. Our very first live retireholic show on a stage was in Chicago and it was at. What was that old hotel called? You guys remember. Oh, God. Oh. [53:42] Chad: Toasty was our brewer. Right? [53:45] JD: It's a famous. Yeah, but it's a this old. The Drake. [53:51] Christopher Tibber: The Drake. [53:52] JD: The Drake. Anyways, that was our very first live on stage show. But let's continue to make this about us. Okay, Next. Nope. Or dope question. I'm gonna give this to you, Christopher. What's going on here, we don't get [54:09] Chad: to answer the question about the hats. [54:11] JD: No, no, no, no. It started changing. I got some coming for you. This one is. [54:18] Chad: Remember my termination letter. [54:21] JD: Happy wife, happy life, sunglasses on a podcast. And I believe you even have a backstory from your cousin here. But yeah, no for dope on this [54:33] Christopher Tibber: and absolutely 100% dope. Okay. It's. People wonder what's going on. I've got a cousin of mine who's an expert in you user interface, and at one point, after he'd been watching some of the. Thank you. Some of the videos, he texted me, is Catherine going blind? Why is she. Why is she wearing those sunglasses? [55:01] JD: Christopher. Christopher, why does the beret with the sunglasses kind of add to the blind thing? I don't know, but go on. [55:11] Christopher Tibber: We try to do things that are not normal. Flat caps for me, berets for her. I have berets. I have worn berets in France, where I am the only person over the age of 10 who's not in the military wearing a beret. Okay. In all of Paris, I am probably the only person. [55:31] Catherine Tibber: He was asked for directions, and I [55:34] Christopher Tibber: was asked for directions because I was wearing a beret. [55:38] JD: Okay. [55:39] Christopher Tibber: No, I just. [55:39] Chad: She's. [55:40] Christopher Tibber: She's got to look. People look for it. And, you know, I'm not going to give her secret away for why she wears sunglasses. [55:45] JD: Well, here at the Retireaholics, we like the status quo. We don't like to do things different than other people. So the fact that you guys are being edgy and doing things outside of a standard deviation makes us very uncomfortable. But I have to say, Catherine, your glasses, when I. I didn't know you guys, and when I saw the 401k couple podcast YouTube show, and by the way, we haven't pitched that yet, so this is on YouTube and everyone can go out there and look at it. When I saw you, you can only not look at it. You can also listen to it. But. And those glasses on, I was like, who the is this chick? What the is going on here? It was literally the glasses that drew me in and the fact that you had them on every episode. I personally, as a consumer was like, I'm all in right now. I need to know what's going on right here. There was a rock star element happening to this that I needed to know. And that was the moment that I reached out to you guys and said, hey, I'm a fellow third party administrator. I've seen what you guys are doing. And what the fuck? I'm behind this. This is cool. This is dope. Okay. [57:06] Christopher Tibber: So clearly was that you thought we didn't know who you were. Really. [57:10] JD: Yeah. Clearly, Sunglasses on a podcast is 100% dope as. [57:17] Christopher Tibber: Absolutely. Absolutely. [57:19] JD: I'm gonna break from tradition, and I'm gonna go to you, Rob Guy, for the next one. Liver as a food as opposed to, I guess, the organ you need. Your liver. Right. You have to have your liver. So you were dope on having a liver, but liver to eat, Are you? Nope. Or dope on this? [57:41] Chad: I. I can honestly say I don't have an answer to that. I. I'm a pretty experimental culinary person. I'll eat whatever. [57:50] JD: I don't. [57:51] Chad: I've never had it just in it of itself. I'm sure it's been, like, a part of something, but I've never been, like, thought out. I mean, I know people have liver [58:00] JD: and onions or whatever. [58:01] Chad: Like, I've never. I've never ordered that, eaten that, been around it. So I have no answer for this because I don't know. [58:08] JD: Okay. [58:09] Chad: It's very contact. [58:10] Christopher Tibber: It's very contextual, very geographical, and you need it to be very fresh and somebody knows what they're doing, and then it can be good. [58:17] JD: Christopher knows I'm going to come in to close this out. Bavaria, Chad and Justin, as a group. Do you guys love liver? Do you order it? [58:26] Chad: Never had it. Never going to try it. I'm good. I have had it, and I will never have it again. [58:33] JD: My opinion is if I served my liver to someone else, they surely would die. You seem much more sophisticated than us traveling to Paris with your berets and your. Did we decide we just couldn't call it a PD binder? [58:55] Christopher Tibber: Flat cat. [58:57] JD: How do you feel about liver with a nice wine at a fancy restaurant? Yes or no? Yes. [59:06] Catherine Tibber: So I think liver and onions is disgusting. And I was served it as a kid, and the dog underneath the table really benefited from me slipping it to him. So that's how I dealt with it as a kid. Liver sausage, where, you know, we've had German. You can have some amazing liver sausage, and it's quite yummy. It's like a pate. So I would say preparation is. [59:30] JD: It's like a. What? [59:33] Christopher Tibber: French for really ground up stuff. [59:35] JD: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. [59:36] Chad: Is that called. Is that called a liverwurst? [59:39] JD: Is that what it's called? [59:40] Catherine Tibber: Yeah. [59:40] Christopher Tibber: Well, liverwurst is German for liver sausage. That's. [59:46] Catherine Tibber: Yeah. [59:46] JD: Don't take this the wrong way, anybody on this show, but I love tubular meat. Tubular. Christopher And Catherine, don't let my appearance fool you. My daughter, who is now 23, schooled in Paris, France. And I went there many a time, many a time. And I sat on small corners of a, of a, of a cafe or whatever you like to call it, sipping on a cold Coors light, watching the Parisians walk by. I've. I've been there. [1:00:22] Christopher Tibber: What the hell corner of Paris were you in? [1:00:25] JD: Many times. Many times I actually owned property in Paris, if we want to be clear about this. Did I mention the bourbon prices? Okay, let's move on. [1:00:39] Catherine Tibber: Well, you're bearing it. You're bearing the lead. Like, where did you live? Come on, tell us. [1:00:43] Chad: Yeah. [1:00:44] JD: Oh, I didn't live there. I just owned property for my daughter to go to school. And when I say own property, I'm lying about that. The same way I'm lying about my lamb I rented in a flat in downtown Paris. [1:00:58] Chad: For me, hey, it was right outside the Eiffel Tower and it was beautiful. [1:01:03] JD: Catherine, stop ruining my vibrate. Now this is a show. This is fiction. Stay with it. Okay, Come on, pay attention. [1:01:11] Chad: I'm not gonna lie. Catherine scares me. [1:01:13] Christopher Tibber: Like you, I'm just unique to be scared. I have to go upstairs later tonight. Okay. [1:01:21] Catherine Tibber: Come on, man. [1:01:23] JD: Never mind. We're gonna, we're gonna move on from the Nober dope segment. And I want to finish with kind of a, kind of final topic, because you know what I'm thinking tonight I got an expensive bottle. Cheeseburger, cheese burrito. No, no, no, no. We might go, we might go after show for a bit. Just for a bit. Okay. Another topic, the 15 minute or less install. Okay, You've got, you've got human interests, you've got guideline. And I thought of Catherine and Christopher when I came up with this discussion topic. But all these disruptors are very proud of this technology they've built to allow a client to set up a plan in 15 minutes or less. I mean, they literally do like media blasts on it. And this is a very third party administrator specific thing. But when you're deciding what provisions you want, what eligibility, what type of plan, I want to go to Catherine first. I'm going to go to Christopher. They say this is the bee's knees. Like that's actually not their marketing. That was mine, but yeah, they love this shit. I wonder if this is a bad thing. And so I want to ask you, how do you feel about the 15 minute or less install of a plan? [1:02:52] Christopher Tibber: Well, it generates more revenue for us because we have to charge more Fees to unfuck their shit. Okay. I mean, you know, it's a lot quicker and easier here to get stuff done right the first time. All right, we. What we have found out is our. And I think I'm going to be collective in this. I'm not saying the two of us, the five of us and probably some others watching, our collective superpower is being able to fill out forms correctly. Okay? That's basically what we do. No, I mean, seriously, [1:03:24] JD: Devin, if you're listening, take note. [1:03:26] Christopher Tibber: Yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's for. You can't explain. You can't explain. 5,500 safe harbor notices. Pre tax deferral. Roth deferral vesting, automatic enrollment, automatic escalation. Pre tax credits form. 5500 Fidelity Bond. What the else am I missing? Okay, in 15 minutes, it's going to take 20 minutes for them to understand. [1:03:51] JD: What the. For a second, I don't even think it's all in the fine print, bro. It's all there. [1:03:58] Christopher Tibber: Exactly. What? [1:03:59] JD: I don't even think you can have a real conversation about your employer contribution. [1:04:05] Chad: That's cute. It's cute. It's really cute that you use the word conversation in talking about a plan establishment in this conversation. It's, there's not a conversation, it's a. Check these boxes and we will draft the document. Guys, there is a, There is a world that we all live in where people are administrators and they administer a plan based upon the data they are given. They will set up a plan based upon the boxes that are checked. We're not all consultants. We're in a TPA world. Shit that we believe we are. But, but the average wizard, the average plan consultant, they're not. And I'm not talking about the community we live in. I'm talking about the community of people who are filing 5000 500s bundled providers, volume shops. They're going to, they're going to write a plan in 15 minutes based on the box you check. And then they're going to do your compliance work. Inaccurate. Get you in trouble, and probably do that in 45 minutes. [1:05:07] JD: Catherine, what I want to ask here is like I, I, it was many, many years ago. I had a record keeper wholesaler and I was, I was underneath my dad at the time. This is like 25 years ago. Yeah, I know. [1:05:23] Christopher Tibber: Is that appropriate? [1:05:31] JD: We loved each other. It was fully contention, okay? And, and he was like totally against this person. And this person came to me and was like, I'm a record keeper wholesaler. I love Your firm as a third party administrator. I'll go sell this. I don't need any of your involvement. And I will send you a little email that says what the plan is, what the eligibility is, what the age requirement is, what, you know, they give us all the design, we'll design it for you. And my dad is like, jd, I was young. He's like, this is a bad move. And I was like, this guy's gonna bring us fucking business. Dad, shut the up. Let's do this. I mean, 75 of that like crashed and burned because the plan sponsor didn't understand what this sleazy wholesaler was selling them. And that I had to deal with the aftermath, right? [1:06:27] Catherine Tibber: Like what? [1:06:28] JD: I have. What? I have a vesting schedule. [1:06:32] Catherine Tibber: What? [1:06:33] JD: I don't have loans. I have loans. [1:06:35] Catherine Tibber: What? [1:06:35] JD: All these questions. And so when these disruptors claim that through some cheesy technology they can walk someone through a decision making process to decide that they want. Do you want a safe harbor? Yes. Would you like a non elective? A match or a quokka? I'll drink. I don't know. I'll take this one. [1:06:56] Christopher Tibber: Great. [1:06:57] JD: Next thing. Would you like a profit sharing? Sure. Guessing schedule. Make a choice. I could go on and on. So Catherine, tell me, why are these people so proud that they're advertising this across our industry when it seems like a total disaster? [1:07:15] Catherine Tibber: Because they're like the cool kids that make things easy, right? Like we're the troublemakers because we make things hard, but they're easy. It's, it's sales. It's, it's just, it's sales for treating a 401k as a, as a product, not a product with a service. Right? And what we represent is that we actually say we have knowledge of people who can work you through things. And I'd say I've had a very specific example of customer service recently where I've used QuickBooks online for a whole bunch of things, right? And I started something out for a non profit that I used. I've had a fuck up, I've had to deal with for 10 days because it wasn't working the right. Right way, right? And then on the other hand, I hate to give them the heads up. I mean the, the high five is bank of America. I wanted to set up an account with them. They had a human being on the phone with me for an hour and they got it set up, right? And I had a, I had a, an account the very next day. So I would say that spending that hour with the client Getting it right, getting it set up is an elegant way to get things done. And spending the rest of your life fixing something that you set up improperly is a total waste of time. [1:08:40] JD: Chad, hang on, isn't this the classic Silicon Valley mindset? They've grown up with this. They think the best products are the things that just happen efficiently and easily and with less time. And so you can't blame them. The guideline, the human interest, the vessel, the four one go, they've all advertised this and so I get where their mindset's at. But are they missing the boat with like how serious this is? [1:09:17] Chad: Oh yes, it works every time. If I answer your question, yes, they're missing the boat with how serious this is. But the two comments that I wanted to make that both support that thought is number one. We have, we have conflicting thoughts here. Catherine, when you spend one hour with a client and you explain everything and you design a perfectly beautiful, well written document and it's cross tested and you have end of year because you're using a safe harbor match and it's, do you think they understand what you just designed? Because they don't. You could spend six hours with them and they don't understand. So let's not be naive and think that because we understand it and we can display wonderfully what we're designing, that they get it because they don't. And then the second the conflicting thought is we have to understand what the consumer wants. And when I thought of this analogy as you were saying it, I'm on the beach and right now, Guideline and these others that are selling a 15 minute design, they're selling sunscreen on the beach and the rest of us are sitting there saying, you shouldn't be in the sun, it's bad for your skin, you should go home right now. Sunscreen won't help enough, you've gotten too much vitamin D. And the truth is that's not what the consumer wants. You guys, I'm a believer in a full design call. Let's not phase that out. But what we're trying to sell and being over analytical and designing the perfect plan and spending two hours with them to set it up, that's not what the consumer wants. So we need to stop trying to sell it. Otherwise we're battling against the bundle providers who are going to win. [1:10:55] JD: Katherine, what I want you to do is challenge Chad here because I think you did this with our first topic and I think as third party administrators, we need to understand where these disruptors are succeeding and they're succeeding by telling our prospects and our clients what they want to hear. And so, Catherine, as a, as a, as a person, Hunter Benefits, do you think your prospects would like to hear that Hunter Benefits could provide a 15 minute or less design setup? [1:11:33] Catherine Tibber: So maybe they'd like the 15 minute setup, but you know, what they actually want is me to be able to answer the phone the next day and help them out. And I'd say interest sells them in 15 minutes and then ignores them the rest of their lives. If you want to say back to Chad, if you want to say, let's make it easy, let's make it 15 minutes, but I'm here for you for the rest of the stuff and we can talk it through, that's great. But I'd still say, yeah, we can. Yeah, but can we, can we really compete with things like payroll companies where it's like adding a side of fries [1:12:09] JD: to adding a side of fries. Oh my God, I love that. Adding a side of fries. Christopher, it's not. [1:12:15] Chad: Yes, we can. Completely apples to apples, by the way. And again, I agree with everybody's comments so far to some degree, because what they've done to do this in 15 minutes too is they've limited the options. Right. We, like, we come to them and we give them a plethora of different ways. We, we talk about it first. We come up with creative ways to do things. They've said you can only use this type of eligibility. You can only do this. You can't use hours like they have. Put a guy coming up. [1:12:46] JD: Christopher, you're coming up. Hold on. Go ahead. No, Robi, thank you so much. Jump in. [1:12:54] Christopher Tibber: So. So, Chad, the problem is the bottle is packaged SPF9000 and inside is coconut oil. [1:13:01] Catherine Tibber: Okay. [1:13:03] Christopher Tibber: It's. They're not. [1:13:05] Chad: That's fair. [1:13:07] JD: I like a good tan. I'll take it. [1:13:09] Christopher Tibber: Oh, no, you're. You're gonna be leather. Okay, so now I don't remember what Mark said. Okay, what was. [1:13:17] Chad: I was just, I was just saying from a third party administrator perspective, our designs can be a bit more robust [1:13:25] JD: and complex because they've limited the option. So it can cut down on time when you're not talking about 40 to 50% of the things that we might go over less options quicker. When you have integration, you have a safe harbor match. It's hard to that up. [1:13:42] Christopher Tibber: Give a minute. I'll try. Okay. We tried to have two less complex solutions. Okay. [1:13:50] JD: You've done this. 100 benefits. [1:13:51] Christopher Tibber: We've done this. And everybody comes up to the bar. And says, oh, I would like to pay that. Yes, I will have a plain scoop of vanilla in a paper cup. I'll bring my own spoon. [1:14:03] Catherine Tibber: Yes. [1:14:04] Christopher Tibber: Oh, can I have some nuts? No. Yeah, I want some nuts. Okay. You know what I mean? Everybody starts off the equation saying they want super simple. I want the most basic thing you got, by the way. [1:14:17] JD: Christopher, can I stop you? Especially their advisor who's representing them wants them to have that right. [1:14:25] Christopher Tibber: And wants us to cut our fees. [1:14:27] JD: Yeah, and that too. Yeah, yeah. So I don't want to sound like it doesn't work. [1:14:33] Chad: Let's, and let's, let's. Before you move on, J.D. let's quantify a little bit about what we mean by a 15 minute plan establishment. By the way, I hosted with lance today a 30 minute design call where we're writing a 2024 profit sharing only plan. [1:14:49] JD: Give people context who Lance is. [1:14:51] Chad: Lance is our implementation manager. So he's the one that is onboarding clients and writing docs for us. But it was 30 minutes flat. In that 30 minutes, we asked the question, do you have any related employees? Because they didn't fill out our information showing that had related businesses. Both doctors had their own S corps. We uncovered that the existing doc didn't have their S corps. We're going to write them in as adopting employers. We went on to draft a 2024 profit sharing only doc for them because they didn't have it for 2024. We're talking about merging here in 20. I'll say 2025. We covered the fact that we're going to transition the type of automatic enrollment they have. My point being, in 30 minutes we did everything that was needed from a design perspective. Why? Because I had gathered a shit ton of information ahead of time and I had done the work to come back and say, this is what you need to be doing. I didn't ask the client, do you want 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, 12 months? No. I came back and said this is what you should be doing. That's the difference between the 15 minute setup that we're hearing about and the 15 minute 30 minute in my example setup that we're doing now. Let's also not forget, when you're talking about setting up the trust for investments, that's different than what we're talking about as this little compliance administrator group. And we're talking about drafting a document versus getting assets to leave one record keeper and come over to the next. And Sarbanes, Oxley notices and all these other things that exist but what are they doing? They're pitching something that the consumer wants. Let's not fucking look past that team. This is what they want to hear. So we have to find a way to bridge the gap. [1:16:39] JD: What we need here's got what plants crave. [1:16:42] Chad: It's got electrolytes. [1:16:43] JD: So wait a minute, what you're saying is that you want us to put [1:16:48] Chad: water on the crops? Yes, water, like out the toilet? [1:16:52] JD: Well, I mean, it doesn't have to be out of the toilet, but yeah, that's the idea. [1:16:56] Chad: But Brondo's got what plants crave. [1:16:59] JD: It's got electrolytes. [1:17:02] Chad: Oh my gosh, that's so perfect. [1:17:05] JD: Catherine, I'm about to go to you is that, I think forever. We've built this business as third party administrators, as this like, service business where there's details stating the obvious. And now these disruptors are coming in and being like. And the, these guys, like, they're up from a marketing perspective. They're. They're telling these prospects that things are more difficult than they need to be. And they're idiots because they think they can code it. They're Silicon Valley guys and they can make it happen. My question to you because in, in the very first question, this podcast, you had a really intelligent response where you, you kind of went over to the other side. But should we as third party administrators, learn from them a little bit, and I've said this before on the show, and start to tell our clients, our. Sorry, our clients, our prospects, what they want to hear so in the end we can win more and they can lose more and then we can give them a better. It's almost like a shell game. We'll tell them that it's easy and cheap and whatever, but when they come to us, we'll give them a better solution. Catherine, what do you think about that? [1:18:28] Catherine Tibber: Deep breath. [1:18:30] JD: Be honest. Tear me apart. [1:18:32] Catherine Tibber: It's exhausting to do a shell game, isn't it? Right. I understand and appreciate that sales market. They have market share. I've been to networking things where I've had somebody who was with this human interest and this person knew nothing about plans. Right? [1:18:51] JD: About Catherine. Are you ready for this, Catherine? Well, human interest has sold. What is it, Chad? [1:18:59] Chad: End times. [1:19:00] JD: No, no, no. 15, 000 plans a year over the past two years. So about them all you want. They're kicking the out of you and they're kicking the out of me. [1:19:12] Catherine Tibber: So. So, JD, do you really need 15,000 plants or would you be happy? [1:19:16] JD: Damn, I do great. Catherine, I want that okay, well there's, [1:19:22] Catherine Tibber: there's probably easier, but that's to do it than do it as a third party administrator. You're like, fair point. [1:19:28] JD: Aren't we? Well, now you're cutting deep into my soul. Catherine, stop. [1:19:32] Catherine Tibber: You're hurting, feeling, you know, so that. So the question is, what kind of business do you want to do? And I fully appreciate, Chad, that we can make things way too difficult. Right? We can be pain in the ass about everything. So how to make this elegant so it doesn't take too much. But I mean it's, it's. Yeah, surgery could be easy, but actually you want a doctor who knows how to do it well, right? You want history and teaching and everything else. Everything can sound simple, but. But it really isn't. And so maybe there's a part of the business where people are willing to put up with crap and so sell them crap. If you're that cynical that you just want to sell them a bunch of crap, what's the. Make your money and retire, then go for it. And I'm not actually being sarcastic, but Catherine, Catherine, to make money, go do it. [1:20:24] JD: Right, Catherine. Catherine. Sorry, Chad. [1:20:27] Catherine Tibber: Yes. [1:20:28] JD: I don't want your opinion about hunter benefits and I don't want my opinion about plan design consultants, because you're right. Like we can probably continue to survive for, and even flourish for a certain amount of years. Where I, I'm sure that Catherine, you and Christopher want to flourish the same way I want to flourish. But what I'm trying to point out is, is that these disruptors are tapping into something that the consumers clearly like. Like they've built a better fishing lure than you and I have over the past 30 years. And I just want to know if, if we can actually acknowledge that and start to say, like, could we change our lure a little bit? And I'll give you one example, Catherine, is they say that when you get a retirement plan, they take it all on them. You have nothing to do. We felt like that's. How would you say that that's not true. You could not say that. But third party administrators over the last 30, 40 years, that's exactly what they do. They take everything that the plan sponsor is responsible for and they take it upon themselves and they make sure deadlines and all these things happen and they reach out to them and coddle them and make sure thing. They're almost like 316 fiduciaries. [1:22:01] Catherine Tibber: I mean, that's the thing is you could do a pep and you do, you roll all that up and you Take care of things for people. [1:22:07] JD: So we should be marking ourselves that same way, but instead we've. We've been marking ourselves as white glove service. This is very difficult. It's very complicated. It's very expensive. You need us to do it because no one else understands it. This is aspa. I'll drink doesn't sell aspa. This narrative needs to change, and I think we need to learn from guideline human interest. Catherine, am I, am I psycho or Chad? [1:22:42] Catherine Tibber: I think that's actually, I've heard some pep. People talk about this as the solution, right? You just say we're gonna do. We're gonna take care of it. We're the experts. We know how this works, and we're going to take the responsibility and make it right. But the thing about it is it can't be the lowest price, right? Because no, we're going to take the responsibility and make it right. Then we need to charge for it, and we need to figure out how to do it. [1:23:09] JD: They don't. But they don't. [1:23:11] Catherine Tibber: They will say they are not cheap. They really aren't if you look cheap. [1:23:17] Chad: So connect those dots. Connect those dots. What once sold as being lower cost is not as what is selling now? [1:23:26] Catherine Tibber: Right? [1:23:26] Chad: Connect the dots. What is selling now is ease. Ease. Businesses don't want to spend time on this employee benefit. They want ease. They want it set up in 15 minutes. They want payroll integrations. Even though they don't know the benefit that that leads to, they want it to be easy to operate. So. So why? And Catherine, to JD's point, do you want 30,000 plans? 15,000 each year? He's not asking for 100 benefits. He's saying, do you want 30,000 plans to end up in the TPA community versus the bundled community? And the answer to that is yes, we do. Yes, because we will do better for them. But to your point, we can't charge less. We need to continue to charge. And that's not a deciding factor in the buying process. [1:24:07] JD: What is ease? Chad, I'm going to derail our agenda, which is for six hours. So, rogue guy, we've got a lot left, so chill out. You say the. What everyone wants is efficiency or ease. But Brad Bartel says, who's the ease person? So who's giving ease like? Because I feel like, honestly, a lot of those disruptors are selling low cost, and then ease just kind of sits behind that. But you. You think ease is driving all this? Oh, wait, hang on, Chad. Catherine, I'm going to you because you're Shaking your head no. And Christopher, I'm sorry, I like a beret. I like a beret better than a flat cap. Oh, there we go. Is it? Go ahead, answer. I'll shut up. Okay. [1:25:15] Catherine Tibber: So, you know, actually it's almost like pricing model. Right? And so when you talk about ease. So really when you look at the pricing model for all of these things, like you go to QuickBooks, you look at the different things that connect with QuickBooks, they're charging like so much per participant per month and so much for the plan. And it's our prices. It's our prices. Sometimes it's more, but the perception is because it's a monthly fee, it seems cheaper to them. So there's a little bit of like moving, moving it around a little bit. It's not cheaper. Guideline is not cheaper. They actually have, I believe, their own investments and they get money out of it. Right. And I really think that they're just trying to put together a whole bunch of quarters of having a client and making profitability on it. [1:26:07] Christopher Tibber: Selling the next private equity firm. [1:26:09] Catherine Tibber: They're not actually not in the plan compliance business. They're in the get. Get assets business. [1:26:17] Christopher Tibber: They're in the private. [1:26:18] Chad: They're asset gatherers. They're asset gatherers. [1:26:22] Christopher Tibber: Know their. Re their monthly income. Revenue gatherers. Their whole purpose is to get the next exit for a private equity firm. Which goes back to why when you're talking about private equity, it makes me squeamish. Okay. You know, it's, it's just, they just want the next exit with a larger multiplier. So, yeah, that's what the problem. The one thing. [1:26:46] JD: Let's double click on what Christopher just said. Sorry, Catherine, but he's right. We've been in an industry that has built business models to generate revenue and profits and service our clients. For the first time, we're being infiltrated with business models that have exit plans. They're here only to generate investment in themselves. [1:27:17] Christopher Tibber: Yeah. [1:27:18] JD: And. And then somehow find their exit plan. That could be an initial public offering. That could be a who knows what like, or a merger or an acquisition. Bought by, bought by Fidelity or Voyeur, what have you. And so yes, Christopher, their goals are very different. Not their goals, their, their trajectory. They're are very different. And so right now, Catherine and Christopher, we didn't talk about this tonight. Human interest guideline. Their profit is not good. [1:28:00] Catherine Tibber: Amazon, they haven't made a profit yet. [1:28:02] JD: Right? [1:28:02] Christopher Tibber: I mean, name a fintech that's made a profit the second year on. [1:28:07] Chad: Not, not in Paying their investors none. [1:28:10] JD: None. But Christopher, I will tell you that [1:28:13] Christopher Tibber: just come out and say they finally [1:28:15] JD: had their first problem. Yes. Thank you, Justin. Thank you, Justin. We had the founder of Guideline on this very show. And recently Kevin Boosk said that they have turned a profit. And it was actually Melissa Torito who last week said, well, how much is that profit? Which is really. But so, yeah, I'm sure it's very minimal. And so there are hundreds of millions of dollars being invested in these companies to turn a profit at some day. And I think, by the way, I actually, I recently had a lunch with a venture capital guy. I don't know how big he is because I don't know that industry. But he goes JD because I explained to him our industry and he was like, buddy, they don't need all their investments to work. They just want one or two of them out of 20 to actually come to fruition and work. And which shocked me because human interest guideline, they could fail and the investors behind them would not give a because they've got 20 other things that they're gambling on. And so here's my problem and we're gonna end this show because I feel like we've already gone. The after show is if they come into our industry and pitch low cost shit and that jar all of our prices down and they are, and I don't think I've ever said this, and then they fail and they will leave and they leave because they got to go on to other, other pastures. Then we're left with the fact that they drugged down prices, influenced our consumers, did these things because they were trying to make a buck. And the whole time we, as an industry, we're trying to help people. Do we want to make money? Those Christopher and Catherine and jd, I kid about the Lambos. Hey, do we want to make money? Yes, we did. Yes. We're here to unfuck their. [1:30:35] Chad: It's fine, right, Christopher? [1:30:39] JD: Yeah. Did we want to make money? Yes. I don't know. [1:30:42] Chad: We don't know about. [1:30:43] JD: Did my father want to make money? Of course he did. But he wanted to do it in a responsible like way. Not like the Silicon Valley. VC backed. I'll drink right. Private equity backed investors. And so I say, let's keep a close eye on these motherfuckers and start [1:31:04] Chad: a subscription revenue model. [1:31:06] JD: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. [1:31:08] Christopher Tibber: Revenue. I'll call you back. [1:31:09] JD: What? Why would you go after revenue? [1:31:12] Chad: Because. [1:31:13] JD: To make money. No, if you show revenue, people will ask how much? And it will Never be enough. The company that was the 100x or the thousand xer becomes the 2x dog. But if you have no revenue, you [1:31:25] Christopher Tibber: can say you're pre revenue. [1:31:27] JD: You're a potential pure play. I apolog. [1:31:32] Chad: You're so good. [1:31:34] JD: He is great. I apologize. I. I'm. Go ahead. [1:31:38] Catherine Tibber: Actually, jd, you've actually said something with a lot of heart. That you care about the industry and you care that plans are done well and clients are taken care of versus this, this game of everybody rolling the dice. [1:31:52] Chad: Do you know what they're looking for? Dollars. They're looking. They're looking for wins. They're looking for money. [1:32:03] JD: Putting it up. Throw him the graphic rope guy. Someone. Jesus. [1:32:10] Chad: There you go. [1:32:11] Christopher Tibber: Oh, sorry, there's no audio. Apparently I didn't watch it enough. What? Full house, [1:32:19] Chad: everything around me. [1:32:20] JD: Queen. Get the money. [1:32:24] Chad: Yeah, There you go. [1:32:25] JD: Go ahead. You're gonna give us our final thought. [1:32:27] Christopher Tibber: Well, the, the thing is. Thank you. What? We have a huge problem. Probably everybody listening. Everybody here is showing value. Okay? We're talking about the 15 minute install, okay? If you went out to a very, very nice restaurant, okay, you're going to go to a steak restaurant and you're going to order, you know, you're going to order a sirloin medium. And if you had that sirloin on your table within 15 minutes of walking in the door, you know something's wrong. Okay? You, because you have some expectation of how to value a good steak meal and getting wine or whatever, okay? Do you understand what I'm saying? We don't have a way. We don't have a way to value until you lose in an audit. People don't have a way to value the service we give them. And so the only thing they're looking at is time. And it's a false metric. It's an easy metric. [1:33:28] JD: Okay, but, but Christopher, you just described the same conundrum my father faced in the 80s, in the 90s. Like this is no different. [1:33:43] Christopher Tibber: Right, I know. [1:33:44] JD: So what I'm trying to say right now to any third party administrators that are listening in is we need to not to just like condemn this stuff. Right? Like that they're doing this like oh, them. Why are they doing this? It makes no sense. We need to realize that they're winning a lot of business from this. And so can we spin this in some kind of third party administrator way that would make my father happy? That where we like we can do this. But, and I'm being cheesy now, maybe it's not 15 minutes. It's 30. Go ahead, Christopher, chime in. [1:34:25] Christopher Tibber: Catherine, what's your favorite phrase? What do we have to do? [1:34:27] Catherine Tibber: Make our own weather. Right? We have to make our own weather, which means we show our value. We show how we're important and how we help clients. And it's when we're defined by other people. And, and it, we've got to figure out what that is. It's, it's how to show value and be able to do a value sell and not make it seem funky and weird, but just kind of like, you know, if you hire a cheap ass plumber, they're going to stop the leak, but you're going to have it in six months. You have craft, you have knowledge, you have a plumber that actually does an amazing job and your plumbing works and to actually value that craft, and that's, [1:35:13] JD: Can I tell you this? And Chad, you're gonna close out the show. Yep. I am a business owner and so I, I have accounting needs. I need to file my taxes every year. Very similar to 401k. I'm not a massively big business. I've got 35 employees. I, I, I do about 5 million in revenue. I, my, my, my accountant is right down by where I surf every day. I can literally park my truck and drive into his office. Okay? I trust this motherfucker because I give him my data, my payroll, my revenue, all my shit. And he lets me know. And every year he tells me, this is your taxes you owe. Here's what you need to fucking send the money to and sign or whatever. And I feel so good, comforted, because as a business owner, which is who we serve, right? What I don't want is a letter from the IRS or the part of labor saying that I up somehow if, if I get that letter, I lose, my, my stomach drops. I'm like, oh my God, what's going on? [1:36:27] Christopher Tibber: Okay, so, jd, you have a relationship with that cpa? [1:36:32] JD: Well, yeah. Chris Farah. It's a yes or no. But, but my point is that I've decided that if someone offered me those services for $3,000 less, I would decline because I know that that solution is smart, experienced, intelligent, knows what it's doing and it doesn't have to be the person. I don't want to get old school. Now. It could be technology or whatever, but I just believe in it. And so I feel like that we need to understand that as tpas that people will pay more for quality shit. [1:37:16] Chad: You're wrong. You're wrong. [1:37:19] JD: Go, Chad, please. Go. Because. Yeah, you're right. [1:37:22] Chad: And. And Catherine said it earlier. The problem is, is it between your analogy and what we're experiencing here is that you understand the value of what that. That CPA is bringing you. People don't understand the value that we are bringing to them in the 401k compliance world. [1:37:44] JD: So. [1:37:44] Chad: So going into that same analogy and saying we're gonna. We're gonna do all of these things, and they don't understand it. They don't care. So when they see something through, in your example, $3,000 cheaper, they're gonna go, JD, they don't want us. You have to look at what the consumer wants. And forgive me, guys and gals, I get it. We're consultants, we're smart, we know what we're doing. All of that is true. Leave that to the side now for a second. What does the consumer want to buy? [1:38:12] JD: Catherine, Chad says you're gonna Hunter Benefits is gonna lose all of its business to the disruptors. No, I'm not. [1:38:25] Chad: What I'm saying, I'm exaggerating. [1:38:27] Catherine Tibber: I love that you're drinking from the bottle, Chad. That's beautiful. [1:38:31] JD: I wanted. [1:38:32] Catherine Tibber: I would say that. Really. Chad, you're not solving for all 800,000, [1:38:38] Christopher Tibber: 814 million employers in this country. [1:38:42] Catherine Tibber: You're solving for 202,000, 3,000 plans. That's what you guys are solving for. So solve well for those plans and not try to do every. [1:38:55] Chad: That's why the TPA community will not thrive. Catherine, you're still trying to solve for the small. We just want our sliver. Please let us win this business. And I'm looking at it going, we want more. We know we're better. You know you're better. So don't let the bundle win then, Chad. [1:39:12] Catherine Tibber: Have your. Your special group that does it that way, and then have your cleanup group. [1:39:18] Chad: I think the difference is here's my fight. Here's my fight. J.D. hold on. My fight to you, Katherine, is there's a difference between selling and doing the work. You're trying to say that we want to continue to say, we're great, we're going to do all this dial up, and we're going to be a wonderful administrator. And I'm saying keep doing that. Keep doing it and charge for it, but sell with what the consumer wants to hear. We're easy. This will be clean. It won't take long. Sell with that and deliver the value that you know they need. [1:39:52] Christopher Tibber: Yes. [1:39:52] Catherine Tibber: That's where we're full of a spoonful. [1:39:56] JD: Yeah. Catherine, right now If, If I was a. Just like a mediocre analyzer of where this is all going to go, TPAs might cease to exist at some point. [1:40:13] Catherine Tibber: I. I actually agree that. [1:40:16] JD: I know you agree. And so what I'm saying is what we should do to Chad's advice is figure out, Wait a second, how can we leverage where we are powerful, like where we have great things. Because I don't think this is going to be a five year, ten year thing. Like it could go further. But my point is a lot of association of pension professionals and actuaries. I don't know all that group, A lot of them, Catherine, will die. They're gonna get killed because they don't understand you guys at Hunter understand artificial intelligence. You're evolving. You're doing different things. Yes, yes, yes. But I just want to back up Chad and say TPAS as a, as a community. Oh, they're not doing it. I got it. [1:41:16] Chad: They're not. You're right, jd, they're not. [1:41:19] JD: But they. And we're going to end this show with this. They are in the best position to actually do big. They've got data from their own clients, census data. They've got data from the record keepers. Right. With a record keeper. Catherine, you know what a record keeper download is, right? [1:41:43] Catherine Tibber: Absolutely. [1:41:45] JD: Of course you do. So you not only have your clients personal census data, you've got the record keeper data that puts you in a very powerful position. That. Thank you. Granted. [1:41:58] Chad: Thank you. Yeah. [1:42:00] Catherine Tibber: What you're saying is own the space. [1:42:02] JD: Can we dominate by our own show? Here's the good news. Here's the good news. Really? By Brandon's Oscar nomination. Dating has become too drunk, which is great. That means it's been a phenomenal show. So everyone, let's do this again. [1:42:22] Christopher Tibber: Sometimes you know what? It's a lot quicker than you're doing it than we watching it being. [1:42:28] Catherine Tibber: Yeah, we're being stage. [1:42:30] JD: Okay, everybody tuned in. Everyone who tuned in. I love you kind of, but yes. Yeah. [1:42:39] Chad: Don't champion tonight. The champion. [1:42:42] JD: No chap. Champion. Chapter champion is Stacks do AI. I'll drink. I'll send them some next week at their office. Justin, you got the shiniest bald head in the industry. And rub guy, you're just a little. Christopher, you were great tonight. I appreciate that everything you did in your little piggy binder hats. But you know what? You know who the was? The. I'll drink because I did some purpose. Catherine. Mvp. It was Catherine. [1:43:19] Christopher Tibber: Oh, yeah. [1:43:21] JD: Catherine was the most valuable player tonight. My God, the insights. The. She brought change of color in her beret. That was a quality call. Let's end it. Catherine, you sent us out. Tell everyone how much you love them and they should tune in next time. Oh, Catherine. Yes. I'm so drunk right now. Next show, June 5th. Can I get a drum roll? Can I get a drum roll, anyone? Drumroll. Okay. And it shamanda. Oh, God. The next show. [1:44:16] Catherine Tibber: My girls. My girls. [1:44:19] JD: Send us off. Send us out. [1:44:22] Catherine Tibber: Hey, we all have hearts. Let's do it. Let's sell the out of this. Let's own the market. [1:44:29] JD: Yes. God damn you. I love you. Cheers. Cheers, guys. [1:44:33] Chad: Thank you, guys. Thank you so much. [1:44:35] JD: Cheers. [1:44:36] Christopher Tibber: Thank you. [1:44:36] Chad: Great time. [1:44:44] Christopher Tibber: See you guys later, man. [1:44:46] Catherine Tibber: No idea. People are still watching, right? Are they.