Pooled Employer Plans: Complexity Over Cost Savings

[0:00] JD: Pretty impressive. [0:01] Chad: We've got a. I was going to sing an ACDC song, but Justin went to work on the old AI keyboard and came up with this. Little diddy. [0:13] JD: No diddy. [0:14] Speaker C: 10 years deep in the 401k grind changing the game with a beer in hand Unwind. Nerdy Chad's got a swing like a pro RO Guy seeing off in slippers Let it go Silent J yeah, he drinks and he knows what he knows man, nobody knows Jake Dizzle's in a Lambo neon green revving up the future It's a retirement dream where the retired are holics Crack a cold one Cheers Rewriting the rules Been at it for years one beer at a time yeah, we're changing the scene Cop cards, Lambos and a pensioner's dream. Chad's calculator always on his side Rogue guys, rogue man it's his daily pride Silent Jay's got secrets locked up tight he won't spill em even after all night Jay Dizzle screaming down the freeway fast Planning your future while he's burning gas we're not your average GPA team we're a pop punk beer drinking 401k dream grab a beer, grab a plan Live your life, make a stand who says finance has to be blessed? That. Old one Cheers Rewriting the rules Been at it for years one beer at a time yeah, we're changing the scene Golf course and a pensioner's dream. [2:31] Chad: Hey, well done, Justin. [2:34] Mark: That was fun. [2:37] Justin: I was blown away. I wasn't even watching that. [2:40] Chad: Get AI to transcribe those lyrics for me. There's a couple little, little things in there that I like. I want to grab there. That was pretty good. What does Will Hackler think? Oh, who cares? We can't hear him. Welcome to another episode of Retireholics, everybody. God bless our producer, Brandon Carlson. I don't know if you all know this, but he's been. He's been sober on these shows for a long time. And it's really made me sad because the good old days, he was usually drunker than we were. Up all kinds of things. And I want you all to know that today. That right there, people, that's his. Count him five. That's his fifth Guinness. So we're kicking it old school today. [3:26] Mark: Yeah, B. [3:27] Chad: Let's just make sure it's not one [3:28] JD: of those Guinness non alcoholic ones. [3:32] Chad: Gonna be a good show. Gonna be a good show. A quick public service announcement. Hey, if you're. If you're having trouble getting a hold of me or I'm not answering your your private messages or your emails, bro, I'm an owner of a TPA shop. And look, man, this is the first two weeks of October. It's challenging for me. Have some, have some, you know, some kindness. The water temp in San Diego is at its warmest south swells are, you know, summer are combining up with some primo west wells from winter. All the tourists are gone. So this is prime surfing season for me. People understand I might not be able to get back to you on top of that, you know, I got greed. I got to get that hour in on the driving range. And I'm not even talking about my short game and my putting. So before we intro our guest, I would like to take a moment and and pay homage to last show's chat bar champion, Brian Brassa. Has. He has won. And I promised him, he did the old, if you remember finish this sentence, Chad. Nerdy Chad loves spread sheets so much he blank he won that one. And I promised him a fancy dinner and he got back to me and said, yes, this is the fine dining establishment I would like to get my dinner from. It's called Talus Spirits and Sustenance. It was one of his local favorites. Well, I hate to tell you this, Brian. Is he here? He's here. I hate to tell you Brian, but those, those guys, those ain't on door dash. So check your front doorstep. I got you Taco Bell instead. And what I'd like for you to do is I, I want you to to taste test these things for me because I've always seen these odd ads on Taco Bell where they smash together burritos and tacos and donkey meat and all kinds of weird things and I wanted you to try them out. And then in the chat bar you let us know on a 0 to 10 what you think of these. So I got you the Doritos cheesy Gordita Crunch wrap Cool ranch thing. I got you a Discovery Lux box which has got a bunch of shit in there. I got you a Mountain Dew just to wash it all down. But what I really want to know is how is the Mexican pizza? Because that looks fucking disgusting. And how are the nacho cheese Doritos Locos Tacos supreme, and how do you feel about the nacho fries? So please let everyone know in the chat bar, has you never had a [6:23] JD: Mexican pizza from Taco Bell? [6:25] Chad: No. Wow. [6:27] Mark: Hey neither. And I remember you ordered it the moment they came back in stock and had them sent to the house. And it was pretty good. I will give you that. [6:36] JD: So if you call it, you're. [6:39] Mark: Wow. [6:39] JD: Jd. [6:40] Chad: Yeah, I'm not a big. Yeah. Yeah. Not a big kitty. [6:43] Mark: Did you also send him a bidet? Because he's gonna need it after he eats all of this. [6:47] Chad: Yeah, well, Samson's already vying for chat bar champion with his role of toilet paper comment while he's on the show. But jk. Oh, shit. I'll drink. Just kidding. I also did Brian B.B. i'll drink again. Check your email. I did get you $125 gift certificate for your favorite restaurant there, the Talos. So go check that out as well. [7:11] Mark: Wow. [7:13] Chad: By the way, you might want to check with your compliance department because I purposely went over the hundred dollars to see if that would get me in trouble. Let us know. [7:21] Mark: Hackler's a little frustrated down there. Prior winners are like, where's my gift card? [7:27] Chad: Silent Jay, take it away and intro our very, very special guest. [7:32] Justin: He is a God among mere mortals. Here in the chat bar, legends of his wit have already been scribed in the archives of the PDC headquarters, wherever that is. And just as the greats like Michael Scott, Ron Burgundy, and Ham Porter are remembered for their one liners, he too will always be remembered for his famous guideline sucks. And the job of the hut. Looking floating around the screen, down here at the bottom, drinking it will be drinking on Jim's Afresense. Today is none other than runner up. The chat bar wins. Mr. Will Hackler, the national practice leader of retirement advisory services at Hill Group Retirement Plan Services. Fuck, that is a mouthful. Mr. Jim Samsonite. [8:09] Chad: You know what's interesting? [8:10] Mark: Samsonite. [8:11] Chad: Thank you. If you Google Jim, the amount of awards he has is insane. Like a best advisor in the west coast on this day. He's got like, like 15 of them. Now, granted, they're all from, like 10 years ago, but still, he's got a lot of awards. Welcome, welcome, Samson. How you feeling about today? You ready to rock and roll? [8:32] Jim Samson: I am ready to go. It is an honor and a pleasure to be here, boys. [8:36] JD: All right, eight minutes to allow for you to say a word. [8:40] Chad: So, yeah, it's called the monologue, guy. That's the monologue. It's how we start these shows off, right? [8:48] JD: I thought we were just gonna sit here and let him be in the chat bar while we watched him. [8:52] Chad: Brandon, let's do headlines. Come on, let's go. We got to talk about. [9:05] Mark: You can tell Brandon's been drinking. The audio is struggling tonight. [9:09] Chad: I don't think he's. I don't think his drunkness affects the audio, but maybe I left one thing out. Next show in two weeks. Don't forget October 16th, which is my anniversary with my wife. So my wife's really excited about the guests we're going to have. We're going to have Lisa Gomez, the former head of the Employee Benefit Security Administration. So that's a big one for us, almost as big as Samson. So tune in for that. Okay, first headline. I think this is pretty big news. This is my buddy Butterbeer. Brian Graff has and the American Retirement association have sent their their response right to the Department of Labor. Their kind of guidance, if you will, for them to consider on pooled employer plans. And the title of the article is to seek a balanced approach with future Pooled employer Pooled Employer Plan Guidance. A lot of pooled employer plan advocates have been pushing for and talking about this potential safe harbor or these like these new rules that were going to be potentially put in place that they were getting all giddy about. And it looks to me like the American Retirement association, which I will for today say the voice of our industry is saying that would not be a good idea. And these, all these things should be put on kind of a level playing field, if you will. Sampson, I'm imagining you read this. So just, just go free willing on me here. How do you feel about this whole situation? [10:51] Jim Samson: You know, I think you and I have a similar opinion on pooled employer plans in the fact that, you know, you can probably achieve everything in a single plan that you could in a pool plan. There is one exception to that and that's the audit getting out from under the audit. So, you know, when I read this, it reminded me of back in the day when the Department of Labor put out a sample for automatic enrollment default percentages at 3% as a sample with no kind of rhyme or reason. And now. And that everyone does it. Yeah, everyone does it. And you have to explain away why that is not good. I think this is similar to that. [11:38] Chad: Well, you're right, they mentioned. [11:39] Jim Samson: I'm glad they spoke up on this to say, hey, wait a minute, this isn't the be all, end all. It's not. And quite honestly, I don't think pooled employer plans are right for most small employers. [11:50] Chad: But we don't, we don't even. I love that. I mean that's music to my ears. We don't have to get in all that tonight. But just because just talking about this is good enough. Chad Sampson nailed it. Because I think Graph even talks about the fact that if you put these kind of safe harbors in place, decision makers tend to think it's the only choice for them. Like they have. [12:11] Mark: Tend to think it's the superior choice, is what he's saying. If you start giving them blessings that standalone plans don't, then people are going to start thinking that that's the route we should go. That is the future we should go there. And even the American Retirement association is stepping in and saying we don't really think that that's the way to go. [12:30] Justin: Are. [12:31] JD: I don't know how he did it. [12:33] Mark: Yeah, sometimes you can bring the hands forward but keep the bat head back. It's all right. [12:38] Chad: I think that's, by the way, a bold move that they had to sit down and contemplate. Or maybe not. Maybe they realized, God, if we put this type of support behind pooled employer plans, were going to piss off a lot of vendors and stuff. But remember that they did this. [12:56] Mark: Remember some time ago, J.D. when, when this push for pooled employer plans was coming and we saw legislation hit in 2022 and there was this, this small little area about simple 401ks and this thought of having. That is not. Mark. That is not. No, that is not. I didn't say the, the version that goes with individual Retirement account, which is indeed an abbreviation, but when it goes with 401k, it is not. And I said on the show, and I continued to say we have state mandates pushing these small market solutions. What do you think is going to be the next push? Something that's low cost, that's easy, that doesn't have the complexities of a traditional 401k like this simple 401k. And here we are with the American Retirement association stepping in and saying we need something that doesn't. We don't need to stress the fiduciary responsibility. The way we have and have tried to create a solution with these pooled employer plans. We need something low cost and efficient and operationally easy. That's what they're telling them in this article. What is that solution that we saw come out a few years ago? [14:06] Chad: Go ahead, Sam. [14:07] Mark: Tim, small market, simple 401. [14:09] Chad: Jameson, that low cost, low fee thing that he said, did you read that in this article? And then yeah, that makes you feel angry, doesn't it? Let it drive me nuts. [14:17] Jim Samson: Can we please stop touting pooled plans as a low cost option for small employers? It is not. Stop. It's got to stop. [14:27] Mark: Did you feel like that article did that? I felt like it did the opposite. It said these pooled employer plans were focused on fiduciary responsibility and fiduciary governance and that comes with a cost. So I'm not really sure that that's the right thing. That's the breadth that I got from it. [14:42] Jim Samson: Yeah, that was a word, Chad. [14:44] Justin: I agree, it is now. [14:45] Jim Samson: I think there's a narrative in the industry that somehow these plans are supposed to be this low cost option for small. It's not. [14:54] Chad: What's funny is that the, and I've said this numerous times, a lot of pro pooled employer plan people already admit to that. Like they've already come to Jesus on that topic and said, no, no, no, that's not cheaper. Because the reality is it's in many situations it's, it's more expensive, as it should be. But I digress. We're not going to go deep in. That's. Hang on, I want to get to the other part of it because graph also brought up, which I thought was really interesting in this interaction with the Department of Labor because the Department of Labor also asked about conflicts of interest. It wanted to know from us, the industry, how we felt about pooled employer plans and these conflicts of interest. And so there's a whole several paragraphs in this article allotted to that. And it looks to me like what the American Retirement association is recommending is some type of disclosure template, some type of universal thing that all plans might. Now I'm probably gonna on that idea because who needs more disclosures and everything? But I at least like that the conversation is being had with the government that a lot of these pooled employer plans have serious conflicts of interest. So it seems that smart people are aware of this. [16:05] Mark: Yeah, but I almost read in there that they're asking for forgiveness in some of those potential conflicts of interest in order in an effort to drive down costs. [16:17] Chad: Yeah, it says you're allowed to have them if you can like kind of prove their prudence. Right. Did you read that part, Jim? [16:25] Jim Samson: Yeah, I mean, I probably scanned over that part. I, to be honest, I, I got to a point in the article, I was like, all right, enough. Yeah, I see. You know, I, I like what Brian's doing is basically saying don't give this preferential treatment because again, it's just going to tell people where to go. But you know, at some point it's like, all right, it got a little in a minutia and I'm just not that smart. So. [16:46] Chad: Well, I, I would love to see how this evolves. And I'M going to just one more time while everyone's listening in is I'm totally with Sampson on stop spreading the lies of the lower costs. Now we're clear that the more from this the American Retirement association says, hey, it's not really fiduciary responsibility that these small plans are interested in. I'm going to go back to Sampson's statement of the only thing that pooled employer plans have that standalones don't, which is the whole sidestep the audit or lower the audit costs. Which again, let's not forget, I know everyone heard me say this a million times. This was developed for, to, to help the coverage gap. Everybody, this is, this is for small startup plans, not for audited plans with hundreds of employees. And then lastly, and this is my biggest problem and this is why I'd love for everyone to check out this article and read through the second half. The conflicts of interest to me are like the craziest part. Like, this is nuts that that the government said you could have a pooled plan provider and that this pool plan provider was going to be this new higher level fiduciary that was going to choose and monitor these different providers and the fee structure and everything. And again, we'll move on. But you all know that's up there. These are little deals happening amongst all kinds of different people in our industry. These are business deals that are happening. There are very, very few independent pooled plan providers running pooled employer plans of any size. And so this has to stop in my mind, like I'm literally going to go and start picketing out in front of the goddamn Department of Labor. It's ridiculous. Maybe I'll call my, my buddy Rona Wits, who finally got filled in. I, I have a text. I have his text. We text each other here and there. So maybe I'll, maybe I'll move the needle a little. Watch out, you little peppers. [18:52] Mark: J.D. i, we can't move past before. I just have to ask Jim, because of the response on pooled employer plans being cheaper or need to, need to be less expensive are less expensive. I got from that article the American Retirement association acknowledging what the small market is really seeking, which is not fiduciary protection or governance. They're seeking operational efficiency, ease of use. I'm not going to say cost is an issue anymore because of the tax credits, but that's pushed in there a little bit. Yet we continue to come out with more legislation, more rules, more complexities that make it even harder automatic enrollment. Now there's some Good to that don't be wrong. But automatic enrollment, auto escalation, all this [19:40] Chad: mandatory Roth catch up, long term part time employee, like Jesus fucking Christ, slow down. [19:45] Mark: Yeah, so you. We're endorsing this as an industry. There are, there are folks that speak for us in Washington. They're saying what we have all been saying, yet we continue to pass legislation that shows otherwise. [20:00] Chad: How do you feel about that? Sampson? Give us a quick read on security point zero and some of those provisions we just talked about. As a financial advisor, are you happy with this stuff or is it a pain in your ass? [20:10] Jim Samson: So I think for the, for the startup plans, I think the, the cost break or the tax credits is been a big help because there's a lot of companies that wouldn't have done a plan otherwise. At least we're getting them started. So that's been, that's been good. A lot of other stuff is like window dressing, right? Who's, who's using the student loan match thing, who's using emergency savings accounts. These are just more headaches that plan sponsors have no interest. [20:38] Chad: Who really wants to help battered women that are in tough relationships? I mean that. What? I'm kidding. No, you're right. No one's choosing those. But what about the mandatory ones, bro. What about the, what about the mandatory Roth catch ups and the long term part time employees? Those aren't window dressing. Those are things that. You're right, even large sponsors are struggling right now to work with payroll, work with a record keeper, figure out how they're going to execute on these things. Like what a nightmare. [21:05] Jim Samson: Yeah, this Roth ketchup thing. We're literally every day having conversations with our clients about what the heck is this, how the heck are we going to do this? And you know, is our payroll company ready for this? I heard recently that one of the large payroll companies. You know what? Hackler looks thirsty. It's adp. [21:30] Speaker C: Yay. [21:30] Chad: There we go. [21:31] Jim Samson: And so he's like, finally. There we go. It's about time. [21:35] Justin: Hack. [21:36] Jim Samson: Are you really thirsty? I could rip out adp, acp, qdia. I mean I can just go to town for you three more, whack a mole, you back down. [21:47] Chad: But do you agree with Chad Sampson that the government's job should, if they're, we're telling them, should be to make these things simpler, not more difficult. And they seem to be going in the opposite direction. [21:58] Jim Samson: Yeah, no, I mean we joke that it's job security, but at the same time the article did hit it on the head when it said Small employers are looking for operational efficiencies. That's why one of the biggest conversations we've had over the last couple years is payroll integration is taking that off the employer's plate. They don't have time for this crap anymore. [22:21] Mark: Right. [22:22] Jim Samson: So how can we make this easier? [22:23] Mark: Amen, Jim. [22:25] Jim Samson: Operate a plan. So we've spent a ton of time getting payroll integrations in place between their payroll provider and the record keepers. And you know, so that's been a huge piece of what we've been doing. [22:40] Chad: Have you looked into, for your own clients, have you looked into like guideline like I, I've heard they can do a lot of good stuff with that. Let's go to another. Hold on, wait. Chad wants one more. Everybody, one more point. [22:53] Mark: Just overflowed my beer everywhere too, which is not good. No, I was gonna say to Jim, we talked about this a little bit on the last show. We're doing an internal study at one of the organizations I'm spending or one of the calls groups I'm spending time with. I guess where we're looking at how many 8,880s have actually been filed. Because the scary piece is we're all talking tax credits. We're all telling them to get tax credits, we're all educating them, we're all sending them information for their CPA to then request data to get that. Nobody is doing it, Jim. [23:27] Chad: That's not happening. [23:28] Mark: Nobody is. As a third party administrator firm, we have the data. People are not asking us for it. The, the certified public account community is not filing those forms. So it's a terrible thing that's happening right now. [23:42] Chad: We talked about this briefly on a past episode. What a great opportunity I feel like for advisors to ask those types of questions of prospects because my understanding is you could still help them go back and get those tax credits. Even after the fact, like there's some, there's some interesting detailed rules there where you can help them go back. So imagine going into a prospect. Those of you who are, don't mind going after, you know, smaller plans that [24:09] Mark: the cows for you hack. [24:11] JD: You can't use acrosins in the chat. [24:14] Chad: You're gonna get rung up that started up in the last couple years. You could go ask them those questions and potentially win that business by just saving them thousands of dollars. Okay, let's, let's jump to the next one. I'm, I'm starting to fall in love with Leaf House's founder, Todd Keating. This is a338 out of Austin, Texas. And I'm loving his. I think it's called, it's called say anything or something but just saying, just saying, just saying love it. This is becoming a habit of his. A very like, well written, well thought through but controversial piece. And he did it again. He did it again. And this one is basically, and I'm sure this comes from his frustrations of running a338 and wanting to. I would know nothing about that but I'm assuming he's wanting to get tickers and data and information from different record keepers and, and it can, I'm sure it can be a shit show for them to, to, to figure all that out and, but, but he makes a bigger point just about data in general. And I would say 401k data where we live in this world where like record keepers or whatever like house this stuff and almost like dare I say like think of it as their own, you know and, and don't share this with other prudent service. [25:39] Mark: They have a responsibility to put walls around that data. It's a plan asset. They can't share it. I mean that's what they're going to tell you, right? [25:50] JD: They like money, they want to make money. [25:54] Chad: Well let me ask you. I like money. Let me go to you rogue guy then first and just say do you believe or do you agree that in 2025 or soon to be 2026 so much more can be done from three 38s to financial wellness tools to administration to even advisors jobs if we have the free flow of I'll drink APIs and data obviously in a secure and professional. I'm not suggesting that it's just open source for anyone to deal with but for the right people in the right jobs, isn't that the way this. I believe this is part of the argument that Todd Katie's making. Do you agree with him or not Mark, that that's the way this should work, [26:40] JD: that it should be free flowing? [26:42] Chad: Yes, you should have access to it. [26:45] JD: I guess if I'm siloing the things that we do and the fact that people want to do the right thing and they're trying to make it about making it better for people who are trying to achieve goals. Like I understand that kind of feel good story and necessity to try to guide things in that path but the reality is there's too much at stake for people and they, they want to capitalize on it and so they're doing what is necessary to try and to capitalize. Now Todd even said it, things are going to Change. Things are going to become like you think. It's not already there. It's going to be there. There are things that are working and yet you're disadvantaged. So why not take advantage of it now, knowing it's going to dissipate in the future. Now again, let me build. Last thing is do I agree? Yeah, I think. I think that we should have a away for things. If it's for the greater good of human beings and it's for a good reason, then yes, of course I agree with that. [27:41] Chad: Okay, let me ask you Silent Jay, in like a simpler manner. As a third party administrator, we have lots of data in our system and in our actuarial services corporation system and in our customer relation management system. Is that right? [28:03] Mark: Relationship. [28:04] Justin: Relationship relations management. [28:07] Chad: Tons of data. Tons of data. If advisors we partner with that. By the way, I'm going to sweeten the pot for you here that brought us those plans like those are their clients and those clients give us the thumbs up. Shouldn't we be giving them that data if they want it? Shouldn't it flow to them? [28:27] Justin: Oh, you know my stance on this over the years. [28:30] Chad: So you're going conspiracy protect your. [28:34] Justin: As long as the individual says yes, you can share my information. Now this is kind of twofold. You can share my information. I'm fine with it. Just giving people, you know, the. The ability to decline or not. [28:48] Jim Samson: Now sharing. [28:50] Chad: Hold on. [28:50] Justin: Sharing across like TPA to record keeper. Like it's all the same. Like we, we're all should all be [28:57] Jim Samson: able to share that data. [29:00] Justin: Talk about selling data to other entities and like that. [29:03] Mark: I don't know. [29:04] Chad: Well, my example was the financial advisor on the plan. So I'm gonna let Samson tear you a new right now. [29:09] JD: That's fine. [29:10] Chad: So if. If Samson is the advisor on the plan, he's gonna. The record keeper and the third party administrator, Samson. You do believe that I should give you that data if you ask for it, right? It's your client. [29:25] Jim Samson: Absolutely. [29:26] Chad: Yeah. Right. [29:26] Jim Samson: Hold on. [29:27] Justin: But hold on. Do we. Maybe I'm just naive. Do we not? He's a contact on our. In our system, are we not? [29:34] Mark: He's an authorized person. [29:36] Justin: So what are we talking about? They should like everyone within this umbrella of advisor Record keeper and us should have access to all the same information. [29:45] Mark: So let me ask an extension of that same question. [29:48] Chad: Chad, can I have you answer this one? It what Justin just said. Isn't that what Todd Kating's saying right here in this art? Isn't that all he's asking okay, Yeah. [29:59] Justin: I thought it was about sharing the data outside of that. [30:01] Mark: So let me ask an extension of that question then to, to everyone here. I am fidelity and I have sleeve inside this John Hancock plan. [30:16] Chad: Yes. [30:17] Mark: Should I get access to the data? [30:19] Chad: I'm pretty sure that happens these days. [30:22] Mark: I get access to what data is within my investment. [30:26] Chad: Oh, you're saying my sleeve. You're saying beyond the data of the investments or what's in there? Actual participant data, Participant related data, Asset level data. Samson, wouldn't the easy answer here. Wouldn't the easy answer here be. Well, it just needs to be relevant to the job that you're doing. [30:43] Jim Samson: Yeah, absolutely. If you're, if you're using that data for something you shouldn't be, you shouldn't have access to it pretty soon. [30:50] Mark: So. [30:50] Chad: That's right. [30:51] Mark: This is, this is what has always bothered me about that. Hold on. [30:57] Chad: Real fast. [30:58] JD: Worse. [30:58] Chad: Let's, let's. [30:59] JD: Let's pretend I know what this means and I know every aspect of it. But there's like 8, 000 people currently watching this live around the the nation right now. When you say data, what are you talking about? [31:11] Chad: What data are you talking about in Todd Keating's. Casey. [31:17] JD: Okay, I'm asking two guys over there, nerdy Chad and Samson, when they keep saying the word data. Let's, let's define that for the people. Not me. I know exactly what it is, but the 8,000 people who don't. [31:30] Jim Samson: So for me, it's data about the participant behavior in the plan. Because what we're trying to do is we're trying to use that data to form the next round of employee education campaigns. How are we going to move the needle is a cheesy cliche we like to use. How are we going to improve this plan for the employee? Well, if we don't know how people are using it, we don't know how to improve the usage. So that's, that's where I would want to have. [32:04] Chad: So, Jim. So Sampson speaks on behalf of the advisor. That's the data that a typical advisor would want. Chad. The data that Todd Kading wants is a little different. [32:14] Mark: You know, more on the investment related side. But Mark, I would say you look at participant related data, whether it be date of birth, whether it be participation rates, whether it be their investment mix. All of that is data that would be valuable to someone who has a, a product to pitch, service to pitch. And so that's why there's this fight over the data is because it can be leveraged. And this was why I tried to slow down right before you asked the question is because I don't have an issue with that as long as what. And this is what Jim said. They're trying to provide value essentially from that data for something I need. Now if they're just going to blanket statement try to sell shit by getting access to participant data, I'm not cool with that at all. But if I'm, I'm 41 years old, I'm getting ready to move. If someone came to me right now via data they access and said we saw that you, you're getting ready to move or you pulled back your deferral a little bit because you wanted more money to cover this house cost. Have you looked at homeowners insurance? Have you looked at a heat like your he like if they came to me and gave me thoughts valuable to my current life situation, use that data. Absolutely. [33:28] Chad: Let's be careful that we don't go too wide and too far on this subject right now. Because Todd Keating's article I don't believe is about any of what you just talked about. No, he's Talking about running a 3 solution and having access to the data that he needs in the way he needs it. The same way that a third party administrator taps into if and if people [33:51] Mark: don't be naive, it's a gateway. [33:54] Chad: Okay, I want to, I don't want to go there. I think that's a fair comment. But don't be naive out there. When that's a third party administrator, we tap into Voya, we tap into Empower, we and we have access to all this data because it's necessary for us to do our job. I'm saying the same thing is true of an advisor. And by the way, advisors have access to empower Voya and can pull data and have access to data. I just think that if a plan sponsor signs someone up to be their vendor like Samson, or signs us up to be their third party administrator, or signs up lean beef house to be their 338 though that data should flow pretty soonly. Now to Chad's final point. Yeah, of course we need to be careful. If the data gets in the hands of some bad, not bad actors, that's like criminal stuff. Some, some people trying to, trying to sell products that aren't in that ecosystem. But let's, let's use what, what could someone like that be? A wellness tool. Okay, they're not all evil, but let's go claim that one isn't away. Well, if the plan sponsor signs off on that wellness company, then they should get access to the data. So to me, I think someone said it in the chat bar. So long as the plan sponsor is contractually involved with that entity and it's been clear in the contract we need to open up these lines, these pipelines of data. And I think that's what Todd Kating's talking about. [35:16] Mark: And I agree, I would agree. I personally agree. [35:19] Chad: And I also think Freddie B. Earlier said in the chat bar that it is happening. He, he sat in on those fancy round tables and they are starting to do more of it. [35:28] Jim Samson: So I think you also need to understand the extent of the data they're gathering. They're basically watching everything you're doing on your self directed brokerages and all your movements on a website. Like it's not just general data. Like it gets pretty, pretty deep. Like it's, it's watching a lot of you. You have to think pretty abstractly about, you know, what does it mean to have someone monitor everything you're doing on a website for financial institution. [35:59] Chad: I would be, I'm going to get crazy here and we'll see what Samson thinks. If I was a financial advisor and I wanted to be very forward thinking, I might want to know all that stuff Brandon just talked about. Like wouldn't you want to know Samson, if someone's jumping over to the brokerage account and, and buying nickel dime stocks or something? [36:18] Jim Samson: I mean, yeah, I mean, so I think there's a lot of financial advisors out there that want the data for selfish reasons for cross sale type stuff. [36:27] Justin: Sure. [36:29] Jim Samson: That's not, we don't, we don't do that. So I, I have no interest in trying to gather your rollover so I can put it in my, you know, wealth man. I don't have wealth management. It's just not, it's not our thing. It's not what we do. So. But there are, but if done correctly, [36:45] Mark: is that not right? [36:47] Chad: You don't think it's evil, do you Sampson? [36:49] Mark: It's okay if done correctly. That was Kate's point is not everybody's held to the same standard. But my, my example earlier was tough but like right now we're getting ready to move into a house. If someone came back and said you need more life insurance, Chad, what's going to happen with Brooke if she tries to cover the mortgage on that new house? Well, she's, she's screwed. And so I do, I do need more coverage. If someone were to come to me and say that at the right time, I'd be like, thank you. You're right. Make this easy for me. Let me buy insurance. [37:17] Jim Samson: If they're just trying to pilfer the plan for their own personal gain, as an advisor, obviously, that's not what we want to see. [37:24] Mark: Right? [37:25] Jim Samson: But no, if you're providing holistic planning, you want to know all those things so at least you have a better understanding of the bigger picture so that you can at least give good advice on the plan itself. So that's kind of where I was going with the whole, you know. But one other thing I will mention is. [37:45] JD: And we do this quite a bit, data or data. You can't say both. [37:48] Chad: You gotta [37:52] JD: gusto. [37:52] Mark: Gusto. [37:53] Chad: Right. But Samson. [37:55] Jim Samson: Don't worry about it. [37:56] Chad: Samson. What Roby's saying is that you, as a human being, need to choose one. You can't see my chat. [38:02] JD: Nobody laughed at it. I said, po po that. [38:06] Chad: Come on, man. [38:08] JD: Hilarious. There you go. [38:09] Jim Samson: I love it. But one of. [38:12] JD: Hackler didn't like it. [38:14] Jim Samson: Hackler doesn't like anything. Don't worry about him. Whack a mole him down here. I think with a lot of, you know, with a lot of our plans, one of the things we look at is we get a report that looks at how participants of a certain age are investing their money. And we're looking at, you know, Those folks over 50 that are investing way too much in stock and the people who are investing way too much in cash. And it's great to identify those people so that we can try to have a conversation with them just to make sure they understand what they're doing. So that's an area where data becomes very important to us. We're not using it to sell anything. We're using it to maybe look out for the employees so that they don't lose their shirt when the market goes down. [39:00] Chad: But I would agree this isn't. [39:02] JD: I don't know if I. I appreciate how this is happening, where you're saying really smart things and you seem like you know what you do for a living. We're in the chat bar. I just think you're down, pounding beers, saying stupid. I can't get this balance, man. You're throwing me off right now. [39:16] Chad: You think he slants more stupid in the chat bar? Verse versus intellectual. [39:21] Mark: He's stupid. [39:22] JD: Very witty and joking. Not super serious. It's great. [39:28] Mark: He slants more robe guy. And on the show, he's slanting more nerd. [39:33] JD: I was like, I thought, we can be friends. Now I feel like you're just too smart. [39:38] Jim Samson: Okay, I've got you fooled, my friend. [39:40] Chad: Well, we'll move on from that. But one, one final thing that Todd Canning did say in there is that everyone should pay attention to is that artificial intelligence will allow regular people without sophisticated software systems to interpret and deal with this data and collect it and organize it in a far more efficient manner. So this whole world of gathering and utilizing data is going to become easier and more efficient and more accessible to all likes of small businesses and products and solutions. And so I just think Todd kidding. Knocked it out of the park there. But we will. We'll see what his next just saying looks like. And I'm happy to say that when I buy my ranch in Texas and I got cows and like Kate Clark, Todd Kating's gonna come on over to my ranch and we're gonna drink some tartaritas together. [40:37] Mark: Oh man. [40:40] Chad: Margarita. Let's play. [40:42] Justin: Lambo's gonna survive on a dirt lot? [40:45] Chad: No, I'm gonna take my truck out to Texas and I'm gonna have it wrapped in camo and I'm gonna keep the Lambos out here in Cali. [40:54] JD: Why don't you just push the lambos on some big ass mud tires? [40:59] Chad: But I am trying to, trying to fit a gun rack for my truck for the back. [41:09] Justin: Do you even need a concealing carry out there? I don't think you do, dude. I don't know. [41:12] Chad: What's that? [41:13] Justin: No, you need a concealing carry out there. You just buy it in and go walking around town. [41:17] Chad: Okay. Shoot in your backyard, bro. Okay, let's you know this game, Samson. I think you were around at the time when I had the epiphany and I started it. I, I have lots of great ideas. I'm sure you're aware of that. This is probably one of the greatest ones. It's called the Noper dope game and it's totally original. So let's give it a shot. Samson knows the rules. Samson knows the rules. But for the rest of you out there that are new to this game, I'm going to bring up some pop culture, some just normal thing in regular life. Could be 400k related, probably won't be. And we're gonna ask everyone what they think of it. Are they dope for it or are they nope on it. And we're always going to start with our guest first because that's just kind of guy I am when I make up totally original games like this. So Samson first to you. That fabric thing that hangs in your shower or some people shower the Loofah or the shower puff. Like it's little fabric and you're supposed to put soap on it and apparently. What's. Are you down with that thing or [42:38] Jim Samson: do you have one Negative ghost rider. [42:41] Chad: Why not? Any particular reason why you do not utilize this product? [42:47] Jim Samson: They are filthy. They are disgusting. They just gather all the moisture in the mold and. [42:56] Chad: Yeah, thank you. [42:58] Mark: What is on your body with moisture and mold? What on your body leads to mold there, Samso? [43:08] Chad: No, the mold could happen later. [43:10] JD: It's just the moisture in. [43:12] Chad: All right, Chad, you are pro. [43:16] Mark: It's an extension of suds. [43:18] JD: You don't use a loofah. [43:19] Mark: So are you a bar sub guy? [43:23] Jim Samson: Me? Oh, absolutely. [43:24] Chad: 100, just as disgusting. Okay. [43:29] Justin: He's doing individual rags. [43:31] Chad: Okay. Is your soap bar have hair on it right now? I bet it does. Chat. Do you use a. [43:36] JD: You. [43:37] Chad: You. You're pro loofah? [43:38] Mark: I'm pro. I'm pro loofah. I switch them out fairly often. [43:43] Chad: Pink, violet like a carnation, yellow like [43:46] Mark: whatever brook hangs in the. Whatever brook hangs in the bath. In the shower for me. No, we have two separate ones hanging up in there. It's about the suds. The extension of. [43:58] Chad: It's self cleaning. All right, well, next time you take a shower, think about the last thing I wash and the first thing you wash. [44:11] Jim Samson: For the record, my wife and I each have our own soap bar soaps, okay? [44:16] Mark: She knows better. [44:18] Chad: Chad, please make your point. Your point is the efficiency of suds. [44:21] Mark: The efficiency of suds. You don't have to use as much soap. It spreads well. You can clean yourself. It's like. It's like when you choose to wash your hands, you just put soap on them and let it run off. Or do you actually, like, rub it together and scrub and try to get some of the dirt off your body? Yeah, you need a little scrub. You need a little loofah. [44:37] Chad: Love in your life, Justin. I think where Samson and I struggle is post cleaning, where it's hanging in the shower. [44:46] Mark: Do you not rinse it and clean it off? [44:48] Chad: Dad. Not your turn anymore, Justin. [44:52] JD: I mean, that's how it's done, jd. [44:55] Justin: I do a pretty damn good job of, like, wringing it out and getting all this out of it. You gotta. You know, even you can see this one. It's a great exfoliator, let me tell you. [45:05] Chad: Oh, my Jesus Christ. Holy cow. Yeah, Road guy. [45:09] JD: No, no, thank God. I just go body wash in hand. Hands, hands. Get it sudsy and then it's all good. [45:19] Mark: Hands don't get it sudsy. Hands do not get it sudsy. [45:22] Chad: Now they do. [45:23] Mark: Prove it. Put the camera in there, Mark. [45:26] Chad: Okay, let's remember the video of you [45:28] JD: and I in a hot tub. [45:30] Mark: I do. [45:31] Chad: Since we're talking about our bodies, let's move on to adult pajamas. Nope. Or dope. Or, like, while we're talking about this, I just want to go pajamas or sleeping naked or something else. Where are you at, Samson? [45:52] Mark: Hold on. Timeout. [45:53] Chad: What? [45:53] Justin: Sorry. [45:54] Mark: Samson, go. Samson, go. [45:57] Jim Samson: Somewhere in the middle, JD Somewhere in the middle. [45:59] Chad: Oh, because I'm all the way to one of those sides. Yes. [46:05] Justin: Hold on. You're worried about body stuff on Aloofa, but you sleep naked and sweat in your bed and all that. [46:12] Chad: Justin. [46:12] Mark: In hotels, too. Justin. He says in hotels, too. [46:16] Chad: Dustin, when you have a very high thread count like I do, you want to feel that. Okay, Silent Jay, you got to get the high thread count, buddy. Then, you know you got. Do you have jammies, like, with little Charlie Browns on them or. What's going on? [46:33] JD: No, dude, I just. It's gym shorts and a T shirt, dude. [46:36] Justin: And so gym shorts. [46:38] Chad: How often do you know what you. [46:40] Mark: Basketball. Basketball? [46:42] JD: No, they're. They're sleeping shorts. They're meant for sleeping. They only go on when they're clean. They don't wear. [46:47] Chad: How often do you swap out your sleeping basketball shorts? Every day. All right, all right. Everyone wants to know. Chad, what do you sleep in? [47:00] Mark: Follow Mark's suit there. I've got basketball shorts or gym shorts that I wear regularly. Rotate them. Not every day usually, but I take them off in the morning, put them on at the night. [47:10] Chad: Okay, let's. Let's think about this as a home security measure. Okay? Assume someone breaks in your house, and you grab that basketball. A basketball. That baseball bat or the seven iron next to your bed, and you go running down the steps. Who do you think they're gonna be more afraid of? You guys in your basketball shorts or me butt fucking naked? Okay, let's move on to the next one. [47:33] Mark: I've thought about that, J.D. if I, like, wake up dead in the morning, I really don't want all the paramedics rolling through while I'm just laying there completely naked. [47:41] Justin: You guys seen the videos of the guys, like, starting to stage a fight on Social? And the one guy goes, hold on. And he starts just undressing, and the other guy just runs off. That's exactly what you just described. It's pretty good. [47:51] Chad: All right. Energy drinks. Samson, this is real Red Bull monster energy. Are you. Are you not burned up on these? [48:01] Jim Samson: Nope. This is my energy drink right here. [48:05] Chad: Oh, that's. That's coming close. [48:07] JD: I feel like that was the. That was the original energy drink. [48:12] Chad: It was Diet Jolt. Are you. Are you into energy drinks? [48:16] JD: I just. No, I don't like the taste of them. Yeah. [48:19] Chad: Are you afraid of them or you just don't like the taste? [48:22] JD: I, I, I. Yeah, their. Their taste is gross. It's not real. It tastes, like, chemical. [48:27] Chad: I don't know. [48:27] JD: I. Now, I'll be honest. I. Back in the day, have I had a Red Bull and vodka? Sure. I tried that drink, but I, I don't like it. [48:35] Chad: You're diffusing it with the alcohol. Anything's good with vodka. Silent J. [48:41] Justin: So I. When I was down. When it came down the office, what, last Tuesday, it was. Your son was walking out the door. He's like, hey, you want an energy drink? And I'm like, dude, I haven't had an energy drink in, like, 12 years. Sure, let's do it. I got through probably four sips of that thing, and my gut was in just shambles, like, no, I'm done. Sorry. [48:59] Chad: My son, who's at our office in San Diego, now has the office refrigerator full of. Of monster drinks of some kind, like monster ice or something. Chad, do you drink Red Bull or Monster or any of that? [49:13] Mark: I, I will be on. I absolutely love the taste. I love the taste. I crave. Justin and I used to drink rock stars a really long time ago. I was driving to a ball game. Brooke was in the passenger seat. I was playing adult league baseball at the time, and she's like, I just read this thing where some guy was 35 and his heart exploded because he drank so many of them. I've not had a single one since that day. She asked me to stop, so I stopped. [49:39] Chad: I miss it. [49:40] Mark: I really love that taste. [49:42] Chad: Samson. I got. I got one more I want to go through, but I want to first ask you, what are your. Your three favorite acronyms of our industry? [49:55] Mark: Why is Will's glass always empty? [50:00] Jim Samson: You know I love a good qdia, right? [50:03] Chad: Of course. We all do. [50:04] Jim Samson: You know, I don't love a good quadro. [50:07] Chad: No, that's no fun. [50:09] Jim Samson: Reasons. [50:09] Chad: That's no fun. [50:12] Jim Samson: But let's see. How about. Let's go with a little EPCRs. How about that? [50:18] Mark: Oh, wow. Look at this guy, right? [50:21] Chad: Nice. [50:21] Mark: Now he's showing off. [50:24] Chad: Final one. And I did this today, and I know you guys are all dope on this, so we'll just end the Segment with this. Unless someone, unless someone's against it. Going to the gas station. You're at the gas pump. You get out, put in your credit cards, put in there, start pumping it. And even though you maybe think you need to go to 125 or 136 or fill it up, it's a lot more fun to see if you can pull that trigger. Right on a hundred flat, right? Get all the zeros or like, is that not dope? Do you do that still? Or you've grown too old and too pessimistic in life. Who does it? [51:03] Jim Samson: I don't try to time it, but I do always ratchet it up to [51:06] Chad: the nearest and then let it go. You gotta catch it on the perfect 0. 0. [51:11] Mark: JD I live in central Missouri and haven't spent more than $44 to fill up a tank of gas. [51:18] Chad: You nail it at 42 or something, I mean. [51:20] Mark: Oh, yeah, I will try to stop. [51:22] Chad: Like, how good are you at this? [51:25] JD: Are you like, I don't do it and I intentionally leave it on a really random bad number, like 57.33, just because I know it's gonna piss the next person off. [51:38] Chad: Okay. All right. [51:39] Mark: Sounds like a robe guy. Answer. [51:40] Chad: Let's, let's go to our final subject of the day, which is a doozy, really. We're gonna have to kind of like pump through this a little bit because I know we got Yankees, Red Sox going on. It is Freddie B. Freddie B's top 10 products or services that are impacting 401k in this current day. He's got a nice little slideshow. It's@wealthmanagement.com. i know I've been all up Freddie B's whatever recently, but you know, honestly, the guy puts out good stuff. It's, it's well curated. What did I say there? Up Freddy's what Freddy Bees be. Yeah, I guess we're gonna go from the. I believe we're going from the bottom to the top. And the number 10 on the list, I guess is cryptocurrencies. I'm just going to go to you, Samson. I'm guessing you're such a prudent, conservative guy that you have the wrong viewpoint on this and you think that this shouldn't be in 401k plan. So let us know how wrong you are. [52:51] Jim Samson: Put it this way, there's no way I'm putting my name on that right now. [52:56] Chad: Someday your clients are going to be pissed at you. Okay, we'll go to the next one. [53:02] Mark: Okay. I was gonna say. His terminology was right now, by the way. Just acknowledge that. So there's no way I'm putting my name on that right now. [53:09] Chad: Okay. Okay. [53:10] Jim Samson: Yeah. [53:10] Chad: Right. Private equity is the next one. And you're our guest tongue out from Samson Private Equity. Now, do you. You do get this, right? Because a lot of people out there on the private equity right now are like, oh, it's. It's not liquid. Oh, I. Blah, blah, blah. Like, you can't let participants decide they want private equity. They're not smart enough to do that. You're like, listen, you dumb. We're going to put it in target date funds. It's going to go into managed accounts. It's going to be a sliver just like everything else. None of your participants nor your plan sponsors know the asset allocation breakdown of your target date funds right now. I dare you to go ask them. They have no idea. And so if I tell you, Jim Sampson, that in three years and you do a scrub on Retirement Plan advisory group or Fi360 or Morningstar or whatever you use. Use to. To look at investments and the top seven of the top ten target date funds have private equity in their asset allocation, will you still be against this? [54:17] Jim Samson: I'm against it as a standalone option because nobody has a goddamn. [54:20] Chad: It's never going to be a standalone option. [54:23] Jim Samson: That's insane. But again, you know, I. I come from the standpoint on this, where. And, and by the way, everybody who knows me knows that Fred and I are friends. I love Freddie. But this top 10 list. First of all, you lose points for the slideshow. Come on, cut that crap. [54:38] Chad: Yeah, that's a little weird. [54:39] Jim Samson: Cut the. On that. [54:40] Chad: But I'm kind of liking it right now. It's kind of fun to click through it. [54:46] Jim Samson: Most of the things on this top 10 list are just shiny new objects. They're just distractions. We. We just. We gotta master the basics before we get to all this other. Okay, so that's. I saw the. I saw the list and I was like, ah, Jesus. Really? There's like two. [55:03] Chad: I get that. [55:04] Jim Samson: That I'm even interested in. [55:05] Chad: I get that viewpoint. I'm gonna take the counter argument here, because when I saw Fred go for a top 10 list, I was like, oh, boy. My expectations were pretty low. I'm like, where's he gonna find these 10 things? And as I went through them, I must say, as a 401k professional, I was very pleased with each click as I went. [55:27] Mark: Completely agree. [55:28] Chad: Yeah. [55:28] Mark: Like, I thought when I saw bitcoin and I, and I saw private equity, I figured those were one and two. And then I realized we were going down and I'm like, okay, kudos. I'm looking for what is actually one and two now. [55:40] Chad: Yeah, so I thought he actually did. All right. But I also do understand, Samson, you make a classic advisor argument, which is a good one, which is, hey, let's focus on the basics, the nuts and bolts. We don't need to worry about all this kind of. But don't forget, I feel like what Freddie B's bringing to us is like high level what's happening in the industry. And I think that's important to even us on the front lines because as I just mentioned, eventually it'll impact your target date funds or your managed accounts or it could impact like legal legislation and all kinds of things. Okay. After, after private equity, he gets to financial planning and employee education. We'll move on from that boring concept. [56:22] Jim Samson: Oh, you're for that basics, baby. Of course. [56:27] Chad: Oh, yeah, he gave you one of your table stacks. Okay. Okay, let's move on to the next one. Custom target date funds. What's your thoughts on this, Samson? [56:40] Jim Samson: Yeah, because, because I'm smarter than the people who run target date funds. Cut the. [56:44] Chad: Okay, yeah, so custom target funds, you're, you're thinking of these as, let's put some power in the hands of the advisor to kind of choose what investments may go into these, these different slices of the pie and how much. I, I, I, I feel like custom target date funds can go further than just that to where instead of just having everyone gets the same 2050 fund at T row or whatever. Do I have to drink for that? I think so. Instead, instead, that target date fund might actually like go back to our data conversation. It might actually say, wait a second, yes, you were born in this year, but we have these, this other information and data on you and therefore we will tweak your glide path or your asset allocation for your 2050 fund differently than your co worker who sits down the hall from you. Are you okay with that type of thing? [57:51] Jim Samson: Well, Fred's, Fred is clarifying in the, in the chat bar what he meant by custom target date funds. [57:57] Chad: I'm sure I just told you what he meant. Tell me I'm right. [57:59] Jim Samson: Freddie B. Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure that's where he was going with that. So when I, when I hear custom target date, I, I think back to when the record keepers would come to us and say, we'll manage or we'll get Morningstar to manage. [58:14] Chad: We hear you. Yeah, yeah. [58:16] Jim Samson: And you pick the funds. Like, come on. [58:18] Chad: I call those. I call those almost like advisor driven models, which are still a thing. They exist today. But I'm assuming a lot of you are. Are okay with the idea of what I just explained as custom target day funds. Like, could be good. [58:33] Jim Samson: Yeah. I mean, I. [58:35] Chad: Why not? [58:36] Mark: We're not there, though, J.D. i don't think we're there, though. I think what you're saying is you have target date funds. You have target date funds to what Jim kind of said, where you're using the underlying core menu for certain. For certain sleeves within it, but that's because they want their fixed account inside that target date fund program. Then you see target date funds from record keepers that now have a risk tolerance base within the target date. [59:03] Chad: A hybrid. [59:04] Mark: A hybrid. [59:05] Chad: Still a little different from this. [59:07] Mark: That's what I was going to say. And then I think you see what I believe Fred was trying to get to, which is a truly customized God, this nat. This customized PDF sleeve, where it's a little bit of everything I just described. Well, and it is set up to use participant data and create better outcomes for individuals that are still going to default into something. [59:34] Chad: They're going to default in a target date. But then, like I was telling you earlier, you might actually look at that participant data and say, like, oh, look, this is their current account balance. It's very high. Oh, this is their salary. You know, they're making a large salary or they have a higher. A low contribution rate or, you know, all, all kinds of information to. To kind of tweak and customize that target day fund. And according to Fred, it's not a dream. It's. It's not. It's something that's happening right now. Like it's being done by American funds. It's being done by Pimco and T Row [1:00:13] Jim Samson: Pacific Investment Management Company. [1:00:15] Chad: Nice, Samson. [1:00:17] Mark: Damn. [1:00:18] Jim Samson: There you go. [1:00:18] JD: Well done. [1:00:19] Chad: Oh, God. [1:00:22] JD: Samson, I need two more acronyms for me that you really like to use. [1:00:28] Jim Samson: Actually, somebody. Somebody put one of my favorite ones in the. In the chat bar. Quacka, [1:00:37] Justin: we need to settle this right now. And I'm willing to drink. [1:00:39] Chad: Yeah, it's quokka. [1:00:40] Justin: It's quokka. [1:00:41] Mark: It is. [1:00:46] JD: Qualified. [1:00:47] Justin: Automatic. Well, you don't say automatic. You say automatic. [1:00:51] Jim Samson: A duck doesn't quack, my friend. [1:00:54] Mark: There's no duck involved here. [1:00:57] Chad: It's more fun to say. [1:00:58] Jim Samson: Thank you, Chad. [1:00:59] Chad: It's more fun to say it the way Samson said it. I'm gonna. I'm gonna give you our number. Number six. But we're gonna move on from number six. But it's, it's the whole managing held away assets like Pantera is doing with different stuff. I'm gonna move on just for time. Number five. This one to me is interesting retirement income and I don't want to slant any of you right now, so Samson. Okay, good. What? Aren't these people getting desperate? They really wanted to make this work, but it's. When are they going to give up? [1:01:35] Jim Samson: It's one of my least favorite terms in the industry. It really is. Because, you know, I get what we're trying to do. I get we're trying to help people. But putting some kind of retirement income program in place when the average account balance is still in five digits and not at least six, what is that going to do for them? We're going to guarantee them 100 bucks a month in retirement. I mean, what are we doing? [1:01:58] Chad: Well, I think you're hitting on a bigger problem. I think if you really have watched the evolution of the retirement income companies that want to profit from this, they quickly realized that the only way they were ever going to be successful is if they defaulted in some way. Like if they got us as an industry to default it on people. And I just think you think plan sponsors got issues with private equity and crypto guided by their advisors. They, they have no clue about that. They're not going to default their participants into guaranteed retirement income solutions with the fee structures that are involved and the nuances and the detail. It's never going to happen. And so to me, when you realize that, that the defaulting strategy will never work. This shit's about as successful as pooled employer plans or worse. Like it's just, it's just never going to happen. And I love Wolnowitz and I love all these people out there and I get the concept. It's just. Give up already. It's not gonna fucking happen. It's never gonna happen. But, but is it? [1:03:07] Mark: Let me ask and, and Sam, so you pull out an extreme case, right? Someone didn't save enough. Why would we make them pay more and put them into this solution? Let's not, let's not go the automatic side. Let's go someone a bit little Lex to get into this. Can we not acknowledge accumulation? Can we not acknowledge the decumulation? Support is important. [1:03:29] Chad: Oh, for sure. [1:03:30] Mark: Like my dad just. My dad just retired. Thankfully he has a very good advisor who I, I've spent a lot of time listening to him in Quality checking. Like he's doing a really good job for my parents. But my, my dad has saved his whole life. He's got pension access, he's military retired. Like he had no idea what to do with all of this money that he had saved. And will it last me? Like, this is an important part for people. We just haven't found how to really help them yet. [1:03:58] Chad: Yeah, yeah, John, John, that's a great point. You know, I love you John, but I don't know what that has to do with guaranteed income right now. Oh, decumulation stages. Yeah, I, I, I totally agree on the decumulation. Of course we help all these people save all this money, get to the retirement and then we kind of just send them off on their own, hoping by the way that certain financial advisors will help them. I'm just telling you that the, the concept of putting products into 401k plans is just doomed for defeat. Like there's, there's no way to do it. To Chad's point, you're gonna get 1% of 1% of a participant that goes, oh, I like this product. I've researched it, it works for me. I want to, to sign up for it. But the rest of them are not going to do that. It's too difficult. And so we know this, we, we can't even get them to do very simple things. So we're not going to get them to elect to a guaranteed income. So then like I said earlier, your only other option is default them into it. And that's just not going to happen either. So I, I just think this thing we need to stop talking about, to be quite honest. And I apologize to Wolnowitz for saying that, but someone tell me I'm wrong. Someone reach out. No, come on the show. [1:05:10] Mark: I don't mind the talking about it. The industry has pushed it. We have pushed it. We have forced it. That's the issue in my mind. [1:05:18] Jim Samson: It works for like 2% of the population. [1:05:20] Chad: Yeah. Did the industry push it or think of Think so. [1:05:25] Mark: Here would be my way in saying the industry has pushed it. Think of all of the conferences that we were going to. It was everywhere. That's the industry choosing to say this is what people should be listening to. This is where we want our sponsors. That's what's happening there. [1:05:39] Chad: Breaking news alert. Go ahead, Samson. [1:05:41] Jim Samson: My wholesalers, one of my wholesalers came up to me recently and he said, hey, I need you to be interested retirement income. And I said, okay, well maybe you can be the first one to explain to me why it works. And he goes, no, no, no, no. I just need you to be interested. [1:06:02] Chad: These are not the droids you're looking for. [1:06:04] Mark: Gotcha. And then he handed you three sleeves of golf balls and said, go out. Go out there and be interested. [1:06:10] Chad: Chad, I think you feel like the industry pushes it because then this is kind of my breaking news alert for everyone is the industry is always looking for ways where they could, like, pat their wallet a little more and so they're willing to try things that they think they might be able to make money on. And I, I'm more with Kate Clark in the chat bar where of course, it's the insurance companies that want to push it or it's the new companies that are invented, like Income America and stuff that want to push it. If you're a record keeper, that's an insurance company. You're probably thinking, oh, wow, this could be fun. Like, we, we might be able to make some money here. But to me, it just. The basics of it make no sense. I don't understand how it actually comes from to fruition in any way, shape or form. The next one is capturing individual retirement account rollovers. We've talked about this with Empower and all this kind of stuff. I think that's a very interesting topic. But I'm running out of time, so I'm going to keep moving on. The third one is, is group plans, like pooled employer plans. I just threw up in my mouth. Let's move on to the next one. That's. [1:07:14] Mark: There's some validity there. No validity there. [1:07:18] Chad: I love Freddy B. When they tell us these days that they've got like, give me the billions of dollars that they have. And then when you do it, take a on and take automatic data processing. Is it them or paychecks? It's automatic data processing. I think paychecks. Oh, paychecks. Take paychecks. Take a on, remove them from the equation. I'll explain more at a later date and then tell me how many billions of dollars has gone into pooled employer plans. And I'll show you a larger plan down the street in, in the city in San Diego that has more participants and more assets. I'm around, but let's go to the manage accounts. Is number two. Okay. Samson managed accounts. Bro, you're a. You're a very successful qualified advisor. Does. Does this ever come into your business model at all? [1:08:12] Jim Samson: I don't have a problem with having it in the plan as an option. If somebody wants it, it can be a valuable service. [1:08:17] Chad: And you would, you would then vet out the provider that you'd slot in there to do that or oh yeah, [1:08:23] Jim Samson: like the record keeper's gonna let me do that. [1:08:25] Chad: Oh, you're gonna go with the record keepers. [1:08:29] Mark: That is not true, Sam. So they will give you options like three. [1:08:34] JD: But. [1:08:36] Chad: So Chad. Yeah, I mean, maybe I should ask Samson. He just said he's okay for it. Tackle the age old question of is is there more value in a managed account than a. Oh, let's play fun than Freddie B's custom target date fund, [1:08:52] Mark: not for the cost in which those managed accounts typically come from. I think the difference, I think the difference there, JD is is it goes back to the default conversation. And that's where managed accounts have argued, are we a better solution than people who are going to make their own decisions? Yeah, they are. So is a target date fund for that matter. So if we're going to look at where we're defaulting people, if you're, if you're not going to default people and people are going to be making their own elections and not rebalancing, I see where those two things fit, but I don't think it's worth the cost that comes with it versus the normal target date fund or asset allocation. [1:09:33] Chad: Kind of goes back to the age old argument that wow, I mean we should get into this someday in the future. Active managers or Wall street people really struggle to make the right picks and it's really about asset allocation and kind of prudent diversification and that type of stuff. Not someone picking the right things to somehow outperform the market. I don't know how I feel about that. Love to talk about, about that at a future show. [1:09:58] Mark: I sold it back in the day just to say like the stadium tactical management, like I really did. I really thought that it was the right thing to do. [1:10:07] Chad: I will tell you this. I know current client that had an advisor and the advisor was with one of these national aggregators and the advisor made that move to put in their own proprietary managed account account service for that national aggregator. You know, this happens hopefully out there. People you know this, you've seen this. And in the end it was the, it was the reason why this advisor got replaced by someone else. The client agreed to do it, they went along with it, but then someone prospected them and the person that prospected them highlighted this and explained why they thought it was not the right move for them and that they were being sold a proprietary thing to make money and it was enough for that person to to get this plan and win it from the incumbent advisor. So anyways, I don't know whether that means you should or shouldn't. Just giving you some facts. And the final top 10 product or service that does. Does Freddie B. Get paid for all these ads I have to click through is. I know what the final one is on my slideshow. I gotta click through these ads. Yeah. Fred just checked his account. It's like Cha Ching. He just made 4 cents on that last one. Artificial intelligence. And you all know I'm a fan of this. But let's go to our guest. Could this be. Is this the correct choice for the number one product or service that will impact 401k? I guess I should. Give me two answers currently or do you think it's all hype? What do you think about the future? [1:11:48] Jim Samson: I do think it's going to have a huge impact on all of us someday. It already is starting to have a huge impact on all of us. You know, am I using it like crazy? No, I'm not. [1:12:02] Justin: We using it for songs. [1:12:06] Jim Samson: That's a great use for it. [1:12:09] Chad: Waves AI. I use it for far more than that. Check it out people. But go on, Samson. It's okay. [1:12:14] Jim Samson: Yeah. No, I mean I think it is going to have a major impact on all of us whether we like it or not. Right. [1:12:21] Chad: I personally think it will be the single greatest efficiency tool of our generation. [1:12:31] Justin: I was just about to write. Kate's right. That's what I think. [1:12:34] Chad: Okay, let's. Let's go to Chap. Our champion and. And then let's wrap it up. Let's go watch the Red Sox play the Yankees. Silent J. Your vote for Chapar champion tonight is. [1:12:48] Justin: Ah, geez. Our certified public accountant buddy. What's the name? [1:12:52] Chad: Brad. [1:12:53] Justin: What's the name of his company? What company is he with? [1:12:57] Chad: Cpa. Muni. Cpa. [1:13:01] Justin: Both of you. That's an Ackerson. [1:13:04] Mark: Oh, well done, Justin. You've been holding on to that one for a while. [1:13:08] Chad: Since Del Mar stings the bottom of my mouth. Tell me your vote for trap bar champion. [1:13:16] Mark: Who did he. Who did he just ask? [1:13:19] Chad: Rob Guy. [1:13:21] Mark: Oh. [1:13:21] Chad: Oh, okay. [1:13:23] JD: Clark. [1:13:25] Chad: Ooh, good call. Silent or a silent nerdy chat? [1:13:31] Mark: I'm gonna. I was gonna go Kate. Clark. Since she's in there, I'm gonna go Brasha. [1:13:36] Chad: Well, you don't shot a good night. [1:13:38] Mark: He had a really good night though. I was like. I was right. Both. I thought they both did a great job. [1:13:43] Chad: Imagine Kate's face right now at home. I literally think she Just cussed you out. Okay, Samson, who's your vote? [1:13:52] Jim Samson: Let's see. I was gonna go Greg Greenfield, but he left. [1:13:57] JD: Yeah, he did. [1:13:58] Chad: Yeah. So him. [1:13:59] Jim Samson: I. Yep. Rachel had a. Had a good night. [1:14:03] Chad: Always does. But last show's champ. But you can go back to back. [1:14:07] Mark: Ed had. Ed had a really good night too. [1:14:10] Jim Samson: Yeah, Eddie D. Had a good night, but I think he left too. You know what? I, I, I was gonna go Kate Clark. She's very consistent. [1:14:19] Chad: Okay. Okay. Well, God dang it. I was gonna do the old. Finish the sentence, but I'm voting for Kate Clark. That's three Kate Clarks, and that's a winner. And so, Kate, if you could run down. [1:14:33] JD: Make a right. [1:14:35] Chad: Kate Clark, if you can run that, congratulations on being chat bar champion. If you can run down to your local cow store and pick out a cow. One of those black and white ones, maybe you want a tan one. You know, typically, I don't think she [1:14:49] Mark: wants a milk cow. [1:14:50] Chad: You just send me a picture of that cow and the place, and I'll. I'll buy it for you and we'll have someone bring it all right. On down to the ranch. Okay. You just let me know, everybody. Thank you for tuning in. Jim Sampson, thank you for being a guest. [1:15:06] Justin: Such a pleasure. [1:15:06] Mark: Samso, man, you are a beast. [1:15:10] Jim Samson: Thank you for having me, boys. It's been a blast. [1:15:13] Chad: I have no idea how expensive that is. Who wants a cow, bro? It's got to be a low price. It's got a low price. What was I gonna say? God damn it. [1:15:22] Justin: What about a baby cat? [1:15:24] Chad: You know, we need to do more. We need to have our retireholics community on the show more often. Like, I, I don't know why we don't just kind of do that. Because it's more. [1:15:36] Justin: I'm sure you're responsible for booking the guests. [1:15:38] Chad: Yeah, I know, I know. I shouldn't say we. I should say I. I should say I. [1:15:43] Mark: But I remember when we used to do, like, the, the jump in JD's, like when, when Samso is having a great night, Kate's having a great night, and they're. Their points are so good. Like, bring them in for 10 minutes for a topic. [1:15:54] Chad: Maybe. [1:15:55] Mark: You used to do so good. [1:15:56] JD: Just have Nate Moody on the show every time. [1:15:59] Chad: Yeah, Nate Moody tonight. I didn't make it. [1:16:05] JD: I love Justin's idea of having, like, Shamanda, but making it will and Samson, that would be, [1:16:14] Jim Samson: that would be collabs. [1:16:16] Speaker C: Here's a thought. [1:16:17] JD: Jd, Here's a thought. But I think for Chat bar champion. We should have an option either. Option one is you buy them a bunch of Taco Bell or a cow or whatever it is you want to buy them. Or B, maybe we give them like a. Like a five minute part of our show to say whatever they want to say so you can be on the show the next. In the. In the next two weeks. [1:16:42] Chad: I don't know how many people would want that, but I guess it might [1:16:46] Justin: go like you, You. [1:16:47] Jim Samson: You're cool. [1:16:48] Justin: You. [1:16:49] JD: Yeah, no, hey, hey, you know what? [1:16:50] Chad: That's a risk we have to take. [1:16:52] Justin: You are right. [1:16:53] Mark: I was thinking you were going to say like a donation to a nonprofit. [1:16:56] Chad: But sure, Mark, I'm open to change. But for now, stupid for now, let's stick to the script. And let me just say thank you to everyone and we'll get out of here. Thank you, Samson, for. For joining us. I believe this is your second time on Retire Holics and we need to make that happen more often. Thank you. Not just for. For being our guests tonight, but thank you for being part of our chat bar community. And as much as I love to say rude things to people, I mean that from the bottom of my heart. Thank you so much. It's awesome to have you as part of our whole. Whatever this is. And thank you to Rogue Guide Chad and Justin. Justin and I had a great time at Disneyland together the other day. I don't know if we're supposed to tell anyone that or not, but I [1:17:40] Justin: haven't told anybody that yet. [1:17:41] Chad: We were. Were both dressed as me. [1:17:44] JD: I didn't. I didn't even ask. [1:17:45] Chad: We were both dressed as Obi Wan Kenobi. Kind of sorta. I was supposed to be. [1:17:50] Justin: You were Luke. [1:17:51] Chad: I was supposed to be an old Luke. But I. But a lot of people told us, hey, there's Obi Wan. They pointed at me. But a lot of people looked at you and they're like, oh, there's the Padres mascot. And I was like, that's weird. He's so. [1:18:03] Justin: Pictures for a while. [1:18:04] Mark: I want pictures. [1:18:05] Justin: We didn't take any for a reason. [1:18:07] Chad: I'm kidding. Okay, thank you, you guys. Love you. And thank you, most importantly to all you out there listening, the ones that are here tonight live and the little weirdos that are watching on YouTube several days later and. But we love you and we love Your interest in 401k and your interest in us. So let's play our new hit song and let's get the out of here. Oh, two weeks. Don't forget Lisa Gomez. The former head of the ebsa. [1:18:35] Mark: He's not doing it. Mark. [1:18:37] Chad: What? What? [1:18:39] Mark: Mark wants the wheel really bad. [1:18:41] Chad: Oh. Play. [1:18:48] Mark: I told Mark I would drink it with him. [1:18:50] Chad: I think it's gonna be a cool show, too. [1:18:54] Speaker C: Finally. [1:18:57] Mark: All that heavy waiting and it finally lands on him. [1:18:59] Justin: Mark brought me this when we went to coffee this morning. And I. I sure thought it was getting on me. [1:19:04] JD: J.D. [1:19:04] Justin: it's okay. We're almost done. [1:19:05] Chad: Anybody? You? You? [1:19:08] Justin: You? [1:19:09] Chad: You're cool. And you? I'm out. Let's just end on that. Brandon, play out a new song. Good night, Justin. [1:19:21] Mark: Good night, Jim. [1:19:22] Chad: Oh, I just cracked my smearing off on. Totally. [1:19:26] Mark: Gotta drink it, gotta drink it now 10 years. Appreciate you, Samsung. [1:19:36] Justin: Oh, man. This brings back memories, boys. [1:19:45] Speaker C: Yeah, he drinks and he knows what he knows man, nobody know J. Dizzles in a Lambo Neon green, revving up the floor Future it's a retirement dream where the retired are holics Crack a cold wine cheer Rewriting the rules Been at it for years One beer at a time yeah, we're changing the scene Golf carts, Lambos and a pensioner's dream. Chad's calculator always on his side Rogue guys, rogue man it's his daily pride Silent Jay's got secrets locked up tight he won't spill them even after all night J. Dizzle screaming down the freeway fast Planning your future while he's burning gas we're not your average GPA team we're a pop punk beer drinking, 401k drink grab a beer, grab a plan Live your life, make a understand who says finance has to be blood? We're the retireholics Crack a cold one Cheers. Rewriting the rules Been added for years One beer at a time yeah, we're changing the scene Golf gods, a missionary dream. [1:21:42] Chad: What does it say? [1:21:44] Mark: Out of office, [1:21:47] JD: everybody. [1:21:47] Chad: See you next time, you're cool. Fuck you.