Fiduciary Education & the Center for Board Certified Fiduciaries

[0:00] JD: When? Next year. [0:02] Justin: No. [0:03] Mark: Yes. Next year. [0:05] Chad: Are you going to the LPGA tournament at Aviara? JD Isn't that right in your neck of the woods? [0:11] JD: Yeah, it's close. [0:12] Chad: Yeah. [0:14] Mark: It's saying it's 2021. JD this year. June 14th. This year, Tory Pines, I'll be sleeping on your couch. [0:24] JD: Tiger should be ready by then. [0:28] Mark: Too soon, JD for sure. Rory said he might be coming out of the hospital. That got me excited. [0:34] JD: Hey, I got a. I got a carpenter contractor working at my house on a fireplace. And he said, you know what? I don't give two shits about Tiger woods and his injuries. He's got hundreds of millions of dollars and houses all over the world. He'll be just fine. Be okay. [0:55] Chad: Thought about that, dude. Actually, I'm not even a Tiger fan, as most know. But isn't this a Writer cup year? Like, you need Tiger to be on the Writer Cup. You don't want him to be just on the bench. [1:06] Mark: Well, he's already the assistant captain, right? [1:11] Chad: There's no way he's already that. Because he was playing well enough to be on the team. Yeah, but that. [1:17] Mark: He elected himself to the team. [1:20] JD: The team. Go, team. Go sports. [1:23] Mark: Go sports. [1:24] Don Trone: Yeah. [1:25] JD: Yes. Tory pines is probably 50 minutes. Here we go. And, yes, everyone can stay at my house if they'd like to. Where your head out. With your head out. [2:16] Chad: I like that one. Good job, B. [2:20] Mark: That was awesome, B. I was at [2:22] JD: a national 401k conference, and I was in the whole little sponsors area, and I saw. Across from the hallway, I saw Mr. Fred Reich. He was standing there. This is a true story. And he was drinking coffee out of, like, one of those disposable coffee cups that you get, you know, the little plastic tops. And it appeared like he had finished his coffee, and he placed it on one of those circular high tabletops and walked away. Well, I thought I could have that coffee cup for myself. So I went over, I grabbed the coffee cup, and I kept it. And I still have it today. Is that weird? Is that weird? Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Retireholics. [3:16] Mark: It is true. [3:17] JD: Welcome, everybody. Retire. Alex. My name is J.D. carlson. I'm here with Chad Johansen, Mark Palmedian, Justin McNeil. Thanks for tuning in. We appreciate it. Justin, who's our guest? [3:26] Mark: Ready? [3:27] JD: Who's our guest? [3:29] Justin: Well, geez, I feel like we keep increasing the level of, you know, quality of our people on here, and it's. This guy certainly needs no introduction whatsoever, [3:38] JD: but kind of hurts. That kind of hurts. If you're Last week's guest, you're like, well, no, I mean, just they. [3:43] Justin: I mean, they didn't start here. [3:45] Chad: They started already been on once. Then you level up again. [3:49] Justin: I think one more and he's in the official hall of fame. But since this is the only time I ever talk on the show, and for anyone who's been living under a rock, everything about this guy is intimidating to me. He's the co founder and CEO of 3 ethos. He's the original founding CEO of Fi360, the founder and president of Fiduciary Studies. He has a master's from. From the American College of Financial Services. Go Greenbacks, I'm assuming. What was that, Don? What was your mascot? [4:19] Don Trone: Oh, I have no idea. [4:21] JD: Oh, cool. [4:22] Mark: He's a co author. Sports. [4:24] Justin: Yes, He's a co author of 10 books. And thank God he hasn't tried to hawk a single one of them off on our show yet. Ladies and gentlemen, the father Nate, the godfather of fiduciary, Mr. Dontrum. [4:37] JD: Nice. [4:37] Don Trone: Thank you. [4:38] JD: If you're out there in the audience, can you rate Justin's intro 0 to 10. Because definitely compare it to last week. [4:46] Justin: Compared to last week. [4:47] JD: Solid 7, 8, 8, 5. Yeah, very good. [4:50] Justin: That's a big jump from negative two last week. [4:52] JD: Very good, Justin, Very good. [4:54] Justin: Fuck you, Mark. [4:55] JD: If you're here last week, you're a negative 8. [4:59] Chad: You can only go up so far, Right? [5:01] Don Trone: Right. [5:02] JD: Make sure you're in gallery view. You know how to do that, cbc? Yep. We're going to do Chat bar champion for sure. So, Don, make sure you're kind of scanning that chat bar a little bit because you're going to have a vote to send someone to the finals. Hang on, I got a burp. And then you, the audience, you will vote on the champion of the chat bar. And it's a distinguished title. And Sherry Fitz will create a certificate for you to show everyone. Daniela Gross. Shady Daniela Moisty Fair. Moisty F. Moisty. Moisty. Fd. So, yes, we're gonna be doing Chatbot Champion and we're playing acrosan. Okay, so Mr. Fiduciary, be careful. If you say any kind of acronym once. I say starts now. Not yet. Like PEP or ARISA or FA or whatever. An acronym. You have to drink from your nasty drink. And that's the game we play across 10. Yep, there we go. And we're going to play our new version of the Wheel of Ice. But I'll talk about that when we get to the Wheel of Ice. [6:17] Chad: So let's just Jump start it. [6:20] JD: Oh, starting [6:23] Chad: now. [6:24] JD: Okay. Headlines or just kind of things that are going on out there in the 401k world? I set up a LinkedIn group. It's called Retireholics Anonymous and it's Retireholics with a C. I would. We would. Mark hates the group, but he still would love for you to be part of it. Join our group. It's really kind of invite only and you've just been invited join that group. [6:57] Chad: I don't know what's going for exclusive now. [7:00] JD: Well, yeah, it's only for people that actually watch the show. We're not going to grow it to fricking thousands of people in there, just the people that watch the show. Check it out. Get in there and let's see what we make of it. Mark's already got a poll in there. I put a little question there for you for after the end of this show. I'm hoping that you guys can have fun in there and do what you want to do, but also maybe give us some feedback on things. Tell us who you think should be the next. You're welcome. Alice, you're invited to anything. I do. Let us who you think should be the next guest. Let us know subjects. Yeah, blah, blah, blah. Make it what you want. We'll see what it turns out. [7:35] Mark: Mark, your polls good in there? I hadn't looked at it till now. [7:39] Chad: You know what they say if I. [7:41] JD: Brandon, can you pull up the website? [7:43] Mark: You know what they say of the [7:45] JD: company that starts with a B? There's a. There's a new company I want to. Chad, how would you pronounce that company's name? [7:54] Mark: Benetech. [7:55] JD: Benetech. [7:56] Justin: And the tech. [7:57] Mark: That's an I. [7:58] Chad: That's an. How about you? [7:59] Mark: Mark is a different company. [8:01] Chad: Yeah, I was going to say Benetech. Yeah. [8:04] JD: Jeremy, I'm really hoping that that's not [8:07] Chad: an acronym that you set us all up for. [8:09] JD: No, no, it's like. It's like genetics. So kind of a tough, weird name. I don't know if anyone's ever going to figure that out. But I caught wind of this and I didn't know it exists. I apologize. What a 401k doofus am I? But how would you guys feel about a tech. A solution where an advisor could go, let's say they've got a $5 million prospect or a $5 million client and they want to get four proposals from record keepers. And you know how difficult that can be. But they could just hop right onto this tech, put in their specs and voila, they've got proposals from these four different record keepers. Is this a good thing? Is this cool? And does this exist in any way, shape or form today? Chad? Mark, it does exist. Who does it? [9:08] Mark: We saw it eight years ago when we were part of RPAG offering this. We get those requests from our PAG every once in a while. 401k advisors. Oh, man. [9:19] Justin: Oh, yeah. [9:20] JD: Oh, I said that too. [9:22] Mark: So, yeah, it does exist out in the open world. And I will say my perception of it, jd, as you know, over the years, when we get those requests, the proposal is only good as the person putting in the data. And often, as I've seen these 401k advisors come back to us with the quotes that they've been gathering through this tech. It is very inaccurate. Different assumptions used for some of them. One has proprietary funds, the other one does not. One's using a fix, the other one does not. Someone went in and put in 25 comp, but the one at American Funds didn't have 25 comp, so they used a one in 40 to make it look like 25 comp. I guess it's nasty. [10:03] JD: I was going to ask what are the pitfalls of this? And because I think Retirement Plan Advisor Group, in a sense, kind of failed with that. Like, it never really came to fruition the way you would hope. And I agree with you, Chad. It's all those difficulties, all the flexibility and proposals that creates problems. However, I had a sit down with Josh Jeffrey at this firm, and he was able to clue me in on quite a few things. This was yesterday, and I think that. And the jury's still out, but. But I think this might be different. I think they might actually have something here. The guy that's behind it is an MIT grad. There's a lot of gnarly coding going on behind it. [10:48] Mark: Got him. [10:49] JD: What is that? Massachusetts Institute, Institute of Technology, Massa. [10:54] Chad: What [10:57] Justin: sounds like Daniela's last name. [10:58] JD: I'm from California. I don't know how to pronounce all that stuff. [11:00] Mark: Yeah, that's so far. [11:03] JD: I don't know. What I'm trying to say to everyone here is, take a look at it. You can sign up for it. Oh, I think another thing that has stopped those things from succeeding is they cost money. Right. This one, this one's free. Free, free, free, free, free, free, free, free for advisors. [11:20] Chad: I wanted to add, just real quick, you know, where it also exists is, you know, Chad, Justin and myself, we're [11:30] Justin: kind of like takes our value out [11:32] Chad: of us Benedict right now, right. Advisors come to us with info and then we go out and do all that. So we're, we're kind of the tech for them in a way. [11:42] Mark: And yeah, it's free. Free, free, free, free. [11:45] JD: Nice. Tony, Tony, remember, Tony goes, if it's free, you are the product. Well, not, not particularly in this case. This has got an interesting thing. I first asked if the advisor is not paying for it, then who is? And I thought for sure they were going to like charge the record keepers to be on it. The reality is that the money is coming from the money, the asset managers. So it gets a little deeper. And this, this product may be evolving to ways where it might even help with corporations menus and stuff. So I don't know, I'm just letting the industry know, take a look at it. [12:24] Justin: And Yellow has got a good point. [12:25] JD: I'm with Chad. I'm like, who? It's a lot. And that's what I said to Josh on the call was, man, this is so complicated, dude. Like you guys are climbing Mount Everest here. You know, any roadblocks you're going to run into and problems with different proposals. Like people have tried, been there, done it and failed. But we'll see, we'll see. [12:44] Mark: I'm optimistic and I would argue as long as you know your internals, you know your externals, getting the proposals ran accurately is quite simple. Now you need the metrics, you need to share with them what you're expecting. This was different in my point of view back in the day when, when advisors were taken up fronts, when there was so many different platforms, you were using the investments to generate the advisor comp. Like it was dirty back then. Now almost everybody is institutional based. It's pretty clean to get these quotes. I don't think it takes a ton of time. [13:19] JD: It's not as hard as it used to be. Well, well, the firm paid me $2,000 to talk about them today, but Chad just basically shit all over them. So that kind of screws that. [13:31] Mark: Hey, you know what? I would like to see if they're, if they're listening, which I know, I know they're not, they are be able to step in there and say, here's what I've got. I've got a $3 million plan and this is the number of employees, this is their payroll provider, this is the number of education meetings they need. And I'd like to see it list the providers and say here's what they offer based upon what you need. Because I can't rpag, dammit. Used to do that in the past where it would show you each provider and kind of metrics, call it 30 metrics from provider. Number of service people, number of enrollers, number of money invested in technology, shit like that that I thought was relevant. I don't see that anywhere anymore. [14:19] JD: Hackler brought up two things. Hackler. One brought up that the blackrock Citizer, God damn it. Are involved and which is smart guy. Hackler doesn't miss a bit. But then he's also going like, hey, you guys have Don Trone on the show, so can you like ask him a question? Because I'm tired of listening to you guys. Don't. From a fiduciary standpoint, we're going to dive deep into fiduciary with you tonight. When you see these types of programs, not this one specifically, but programs that are helping advisors and clients kind of determine core menus, kind of nudging them towards fund selection, inserting in collective investment trusts. How does a fiduciary look at that type of stuff? And do you have concerns? [15:11] Don Trone: Yeah. The answer is yes. Let me kind of take a thousand foot running head start on this. For the most part, I've been out of the fiduciary world now for 12 years, back in now. And I mean, I always had an eye to see what was going on, watching what was going on and so forth. And as I come back in 12 years later and I see what's going on. Investment option, due diligence is one area where I've seen we've moved the other direction. We're backsliding. [15:47] JD: Right. [15:49] Don Trone: 12 years ago we were better at due diligence than we are today. The packaging has made us lazy. We're not applying the same type of rigor that we once did. Now that's not to say the technology isn't more sophisticated. You know, the technology now can run, you know, four decimal points to the right. Did I say that right? 4. [16:14] JD: We get it. Yeah, keep going. Because you've, you've just said the most intelligent and valuable thing since the show started. So don't stop. [16:22] Don Trone: Okay? So no, I'm not impressed with a lot of the platforms that I'm saying. [16:28] JD: I like, I'm picking up what you're putting down. You saying back in the day before we had a lot of this kind of consolidation and technology. We spent a lot of time on the details and they were important and they were severe. And I'm with you. It's kind of like now we're heading Backwards to where we've talked about this. I don't want to grab the tinfoil hat, but people are starting to show shift towards proprietary options or they're trying to smuggle in things that are revenue producers. And on the one hand, I can't blame them because of fee compression. You know, like we've taken a lot of money out of their pockets, so they're just scrambling, trying to find a new way to make some revenue. But in the Don Tron world of being a proper fiduciary, that's a scary thought. Where they're trying to rig the game now and build things into the program where they can make money. And so it's an interesting world. I would argue that acting as a true fiduciary might be harder than ever now with the landscape that we're confronted with. [17:32] Don Trone: I think that's a good statement. I mean, between the litigation, but also the number of products, the sophistication of the products, the increase in regulations, In fact, that's what put me, that's what pulled me back into the fiduciary movement, was the fact that I think we've reached a tipping point now in our industry and 401k industry where it has become so complex that we cannot expect the average plan sponsor, trustee, investment committee member to get it, no matter how much training we try to provide them. And the movement now needs to be towards outsourcing to professionals who actually can demonstrate that they understand what they're doing. [18:21] JD: I don't want to, I don't want to head down the pep trail or rabbit hole here, but thank you, Don. You're on top of the game here. [18:32] Chad: Attaboy. [18:33] Speaker F: Don. [18:35] JD: You talk about outsourcing because that's a conversation all on its own. Because I agree with you. I think outsourcing to a professional is smart. I would argue that when you outsource to a third party administrator or when you hire a third party administrator, in a sense you're outsourc a lot of tasks to them. But even outsourcing to a 316 or a 338 I think can be really logical and really smart things to do. My fear now though is with like these pooled employer plans is like a lot of times these, these outsourcing things are part of a packaged product and there's potential conflicts of interest. You know, anyways, it just. There's a lot. It's a scary world. And so maybe that guide, that advisor, is the one that can help the client navigate and see those conflicts of interest, put a spotlight on them and help the client make decisions that they're comfortable with. Because I feel like it's getting nastier now with all this stuff than it used to be. Are you seeing that in your space chat or no? Because maybe in the south of 10 million that you're not seeing a lot of these collective investment trusts or proprietary fund requirements or things like that. [19:49] Mark: I'm not. And what I was going to respond to is I feel like the move to technology has allowed more advisors to say their fiduciaries because they're using the protection of leveraging procedures versus knowledge of the space and leveraging procedures. And quite often I see folks who are signing honest fiduciaries to plans, but they don't really understand what that means, what their obligations are. And that's why I thought the term best interest was super insightful to me. Because if you truly are determining what is in the best interest of a client, you have to understand the space to make that determination. And I don't see too many folks in the micro space that can do that. [20:35] Don Trone: Well, let me add to what you just said, Chad. Keep in mind the requirement under the Employee Retirement Income Security act is a procedural prudence standard, not a best interest standard. And that is something the regulators don't understand. Not even the Department of. Yeah, I got it. Department of Labor. [20:57] JD: He's good at this game right now, [21:01] Mark: Mark, press that button. [21:06] JD: No, he didn't say one. [21:07] Chad: Did he didn't say it? [21:08] JD: No, he's good. [21:10] Mark: By the way, I didn't press call was earlier. [21:14] JD: Keep going, you're good. [21:15] Don Trone: All right. The act requires procedural prudence, which means demonstrate your process. Demonstrate. The process incorporates generally accepted investment management principles and includes fiduciary best practices. And what is happening when the regulators start calling it a best interest, you start losing those fiduciary best practices that have been in development for the last 40 years. And that's when we begin to start backsliding on the quality of our fiduciary process. [21:54] JD: I've also said this all along. I hate, and we're going to talk a bit about this a little bit later, but I hate how we're trying to position our thing as what we do is easy and to tell clients, like, oh, don't worry about it, like just, just outsource it to something. Don't you know, this is easy peasy, don't need to, don't need to stress about it. And I've said this over and over and over again, like, I think that's the wrong direction for us. I think we need to go to these business owners and say, hey, look, this is serious. Like, this is, this is a real deal. You're offering a benefit to your employees that is very important. It's, it's overlooked by the Department of Labor and the Internal Revenue Service. There's severe things that could wrong here. You need a proper consultant. You need to spend some time understanding your responsibilities and sure find people you trust that you can kind of delegate some things to. But let's not as an industry head down this path of like telling our clients not to worry about this shit and that, that it's all taken care of for them because I just feel like that's a horrible direction for us to go. [23:05] Mark: Jd, I understand where it comes from, but share with everybody what our three piece tagline is as a third party administrator. [23:15] JD: Smart, easy, awesome. And you know why we start with smart? [23:20] Mark: I do, but I'm just saying that we use the term easy in our discussion and I believe we do it for a reason. [23:28] JD: Yeah, I would say the easy reason. [23:30] Mark: Yeah. [23:30] JD: The easy in our discussion though is that we want to make the experience for the client as easy as possible. That does not mean that there is not a responsibility for the client. I mean, typically when I would sit with them, I'd say, hey, look, it's not that you have to meet me halfway. I'll come three quarters of the way, but you got to come 25% and meet me there. You have a job to do. And then our job as professionals is to teach you what that job is and to help you, help keep you accountable for you doing your job. But we just don't want to head down this path of like, you got nothing to do. Don't worry about it. It's a 401k. It's the same as buying bottled water for your refrigerator in the break room. Like, it's not a big deal, just we'll get, we'll set it up for you, check the box and be done with it. That's not how you do it. [24:18] Mark: Don, can I ask, do you think that perhaps the, The need to be a good holistic fiduciary has changed because so many people can call themselves a fiduciary now? [24:36] Don Trone: No question. That was when the Department of Labor. That was close. When the Department of Labor rule came out in 2015, I believe. That night I wrote an editorial that was picked up on PNI magazine. [24:55] Chad: Oh, you got, you did well. [25:00] Don Trone: I was so close. [25:02] Chad: Superb so far. [25:07] Don Trone: And pension and Investment magazine. And my criticism of the rule was, now everyone's a fiduciary, and yet they're not. And that's going to do more harm than good because the public's not going to be able to differentiate the true professional from everyone else. Now who gets to call themselves a fiduciary? [25:34] JD: See how he's already setting up for his designation stuff? I love that. Set up the chessboard. Well, before we will get to that. We're going to get to that soon enough. I think that's important. Let's go ahead and let's spin the new and improved Wheel of Ice and then we can kind of head towards those subjects. No wheel. No Wheel of Ice. The Wheel [26:02] Mark: can't not do it. [26:04] JD: Fuck. How does this work? [26:06] Mark: Wait, wait. [26:07] JD: How does this work? [26:07] Don Trone: Yeah. [26:08] Justin: What's the rule now? Do I have to do it again to see if I get the stupid drink? [26:13] Speaker F: Yeah. [26:14] JD: Is he safe? He's safe. I don't know how it works yet. We'll find out one day, another at the end if he gets the bonus. But it's 50. 50, so hang. Hang in there. [26:24] Mark: I don't understand. [26:25] JD: How do we know how I don't work? Will knows. Double down. It's gonna. It might happen. He might get this other thing and then he's got to do the freezer maker. But it didn't happen today. [26:36] Chad: Oh, okay. [26:39] JD: I mean, I get you, Mark. It would be. It'd be easier for us dumb people if then there was a second thing that happened and we could go, oh, but Brandon's like, you know what? I got a real job too. I got shit to do. I can't create all these things for you guys all the time. [26:52] Chad: I'm still confused, [26:56] JD: Chad. Moving on, before we talk about Don's mission in life, I've noticed that you have been sticking your nose in with the state run plans. More specifically, California. I'd like maybe to update the attendees here today on what you've been learning and what questions you've been asking of them. And I apologize, everyone out there if this seems like more of a California thing, but We've currently got 10 states out there that have enacted some type of legislation for state run plans. I know they're all in kind of different areas of their timeline, but there's Cali, Connecticut, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, and [27:40] Don Trone: New [27:40] JD: Jersey, New York, Oregon. I'm leaving some out, but California, but. So, Chad, I thought that was cool. You started sleeping with the enemy. You're talking even though we don't really [27:50] Mark: think they're the enemy, I was gonna say. [27:52] JD: What are you learning? What have you been doing? [27:54] Mark: I sat with the gal. Well, I think she's directly below the state treasurer for California and understands this program real well. She's in charge of implementing and running it. And I will tell you, I was so pleasantly surprised because the conversation with her and Jonathan, who's another gentleman that's helping push out CalSavers, they were very clear on their mission and I loved hearing it. While they know they need to show that people are signing up for the state run program, they were hands down saying we, we don't give a shit if people are signing up for CalSavers so long as they're setting up a simple or a 401k or 403b or something else, [28:36] JD: they consider that a success. If they've motivated people to set up a K plan, they do. [28:41] Mark: And one of the issues they're struggling with, and this was something I thought we could help them with as an industry and as a, as a third party administrator, is they were saying we need help tracking that. We need to prove to the people who are allowing us to do this for the state that this is narrowing the coverage gap because that's what this was all about for them. Yes, it's a state run program for sure. They really just want to get retirement savings in front of more employees that don't have access to it. And so I told the guys, like, I threw a new field into Salesforce that says, are we discussing Cal Savers? Is this something that came from a discussion about Cal Savers? And hopefully that never, never. [29:21] JD: They're not. [29:22] Mark: That was a lie. [29:23] Justin: I was, I was in it today, [29:25] Chad: actually getting one of those for that. Don't. We don't lie on the show, Chad. [29:29] Mark: This is Monday, Mark. Geez. [29:34] JD: Good fodder. Good fodder. [29:36] Mark: Anyhow, so here's my kind of thought. [29:39] JD: Go to the fiduciary. Yeah, for Don. [29:41] Mark: Yeah, the fiduciary part for Don. So I sat. I'm really enjoying the fact that CalSavers is trying to narrow the coverage gap. They're not just trying to push products like I was happy to hear that. And I really believe to their core that that's what they're trying to do. But I listened in, I asked them for a set of webinars they're doing and I wanted to listen into how they're presenting it to businesses. And as I listened in today and Justin listened in yesterday, they are very clearly saying that these business owners are not fiduciaries. And they're not only stopping there, they're going on to say that they carry no responsibility. They even went so far as to say that the fiduciaries of the plan are the third parties that are helping you. And in this case they were talking about a census. And I wrote to ask a couple questions going, I get it, maybe they're not legal fiduciaries, but these businesses are still responsible for processing the contributions, for making sure that they're monitoring who changes their elections, for following the auto escalation and making sure that that happens in payroll every year. There's a lot of administrative work that they hold the responsibility for that, that they can't outsource, that they're on the hook for. [30:56] JD: Daniela, Daniela brings a good point. And Don, I want your opinion here. Danielle, that's what these, exactly these things are. Basically, the state run plan in California is a payroll deduction individual retirement account check swing. And so does an individual retirement account payroll deduction at an employer count as fiduciary? It doesn't, does it, Don? I mean, I don't know. I'm not an expert these areas. [31:26] Don Trone: No, I'm going to pass on that as well. You know, one thing I've learned, you know, coming back in is that all the work that I was doing in the fiduciary space was on the investment side of it, not the record keeping side, not the third party administration side. And I'm now running to catch back up to that side of the world. In discussions with a lot of industry leaders representing third party administrators of record keeping and so forth. This question of how do we do our job on the one hand not step into a formal fiduciary relationship and [32:14] JD: another steer clear event. [32:17] Don Trone: Yeah, the whole, you know, you have constructive knowledge, you've got all the information in front of you. If you're not serving in a fiduciary capacity and you see somebody doing something they shouldn't be doing, if you turn a blind eye to that or not report it or not try to correct it, have you not assumed fiduciary responsibility at that point? So I'm not an expert. I wouldn't, you know, when you start talking about record keeping, administration and payroll and how that could lead to fiduciary, that's not an area of expertise. I have. [32:48] JD: Chad, let me, I hear what you said, I get what you're saying. But in terms of the definition of being a legal fiduciary, I don't think that that's what's Happening in a payroll deduct individual retirement account. However, as an employer, you have a liability with all kinds of things. Like I have a liability to make sure that you get your paycheck in time. I have a liability to make sure that I'm doing your withholdings as I'm supposed to. You know, non 401k. I have all kinds of liabilities. [33:22] Mark: Why wouldn't an employer want to be a fiduciary? Is it not because of the liability? [33:29] JD: That's exactly why, yeah. [33:31] Mark: So if you still carry significant liability in that, is it fair for them to say, state to these business owners that are sitting on these calls that they carry no responsibility? [33:43] JD: You're right. [33:44] Mark: Quoted. And again, I'm really happy with what they're doing. [33:47] JD: They say no fiduciary responsibility. [33:50] Mark: They did. Every single time. And which is fair. I felt like your comment earlier of saying we make things easy and we're trying to tell them it's not a big deal. That's exactly what we're doing here. And one of these business owners are gonna get sued because they screwed up the deferrals or they screwed up the auto enroll or the auto escalation or an employee opt out and they kept holding deductions. The employee didn't say anything for a while and then it's all gonna fall down. [34:17] JD: The auto escalate for sure. I mean, come on, how many of these smaller companies. [34:22] Chad: It isn't required. That's an optional feature. [34:26] JD: Optional to the participant or to the employer? [34:28] Chad: The employer. Auto enrollment's required. Auto escalation is optional. [34:34] JD: Well, even auto enrollment could be a problem. [34:36] Chad: No, I'm not. I'm just saying. [34:37] JD: No, you're right. I'm glad that you brought that up. That's cool. I'm glad you brought that up. That's cool. But yeah, I agree with you, Chad. I think the next thing is they're, they're not selling this. They're offering. Well, they're mandating this. [34:50] Mark: Yes. [34:50] JD: At a certain point to some very small employers. [34:54] Mark: Yes. [34:54] JD: Who are not going to have the human resources capabilities. They're not going to have the, the payroll team to deal with this stuff. And it's going to be a pain in their butt. And I'm with you, Chad. It's going to be really interesting to see down the line what comes from this in terms of mistakes. And I might argue that if you're an advisor in California and you're looking to sell 401k plans, maybe that's a little bullet point. Which is, hey, you come with me. We do a 401k, I take care of you. I make sure that we dot our I's and cross our T's. You go in this Cal Saver saying you're on your own and maybe you're not prepped for it. [35:32] Mark: I'll toot their horn a little bit. JD they did, at least in this presentation, do a very good job showing that there is support. Like there's an implementation team to help people figure out how to set up payroll and set up the program. There's a census, has ongoing boots on the ground to help with enrollment. If people want someone to come in in person, like they've. They've done a pretty. It's not a 401k. [35:57] JD: I thought they. I thought they dumped a census. Or is that Oregon? [36:00] Mark: That's Oregon. [36:01] JD: It's Oregon. That's Oregon. And I know, and by the way, we said this before, you live in California. The state mandated plans. I know a lot of these other states haven't mandated it. I think it's the best thing could ever happen to us. [36:17] Don Trone: Right? [36:17] JD: It's the coolest thing ever. Not only is it going to create a ton of new business for us, but I would also argue that a lot of these plans that hop into the Cal Savers and I don't know if we determined whether this was an acronym or not. It's not. [36:30] Chad: It's not. [36:30] JD: Craig said no will will be. Will be opportunities for us. Years from now, you know they're going to graduate to a plan, let alone all the ones are going to win right here that will choose 401k over CalSaver. So anyways, it's very, very cool. Very, very cool. Don, this is your moment, man. You got something new going on. The. I'm going to say the acronym just for fun and you tell me what it stands for. You are coming out with something. You want to let everyone know about it. The cbcf. Did I get that right? Start from the beginning. Take your time. What is the great and mighty Don Trone up to? [37:15] Don Trone: Well, first of all, I want to say it's not just me. There's 35 other industry leaders that have come together. [37:21] JD: Oh, who cares about those guys? [37:26] Don Trone: Yeah, the new, the new organization you're referencing is the center for Board Certified Fiduciaries. And as the name implies, the work we're going to be doing is board certifying professional fiduciaries for all the reasons that you've been talking about this evening. That's Part one, number two is the organization is going to affiliate with one or more universities and begin to develop the first graduate level coursework in fiduciary. In a couple years, we, we hope to be able to offer the first master's with a concentration in fiduciary responsibility and years down the Road, the first PhD in fiduciary responsibility. The other area we're going to be working on, which you've also touched on this evening, is outsourcing. In fact, that's what brought us together eight months ago when we began to talk about this new organization. And the leaders that were part of this initial call were talking about the fact that we're past the tipping point that there's no way the typical plan sponsor can really get their arms around all their fiduciary responsibility. And as professionals, we're putting document after document after document in front of them to sign, knowing full well that the client doesn't understand what they're doing. Signing. And I would argue that's a fiduciary breach on us, you know, for doing that. So we said, all right, has anyone developed a guide for plan sponsors to think through? What are the questions you should be asking to help make a determination whether you should outsource or not? You know, whether you have the capability of managing, properly managing the 401 in house. Furthermore, if the plan sponsor gets to the point where they go, we should outsource. We don't have the time, we don't have the inclination, we don't have the knowledge. Then what guidance is the industry providing to the plan sponsor on who should you hire? You know, who's qualified to take this on? [39:47] JD: Baller move. Chad Baller move in the chat bar. Sorry, don't keep going. [39:51] Don Trone: Yeah. So that's what the new organization is all about. [39:56] JD: Can I ask, first of all, I think the entire industry, I mentioned before we started this show, when we're about to have you on as a guest, I get this outpouring of people from all across the country who are so thankful for all of your efforts or your entire career in terms of developing this fiduciary best practices, et cetera, and bringing some real clout to the, to the term and what people do in the space. But when you continue this, and now you do this on this new venture, is, is this, are you trying to, and I hope I don't make myself sound stupid here, I'm just going to go for it. Are you trying to like make advisors look to the consumer more like a doctor or a CPA or what else? What's another thing that you go to where you have to have actual, like education and training. When did I. Oh, certified accountant. [40:51] Don Trone: Yeah, yeah. [40:52] JD: Oh, that, that's. You don't correct me. So you're, you're nodding your. You were nodding your head yes. So that is what you're trying to do. That is kind of the goal of the mission. [41:07] Don Trone: I'll restate it. To say the goal of the mission is to advance the profession. [41:13] JD: To advance a profession. If, if, if I was to tell you, is the goal to become like a doctor or a certified public accountant or an engineer, or is it is a more kind of. Is a. Is a. Is halfway up the mountain to that goal? Making a designation that is like on fricking steroids. Like one that people really, really notice and take and are into. I can't choose my fucking words tonight or. No, I don't want to put words in your mouth. [41:48] Don Trone: Well, could you put the words back in your mouth? I didn't quite get. [41:54] JD: If you're not going to get all the way to doctor status, are you going to. Is this more an attempt to create a designation that people really respect? I love how he pauses. I'm going to learn how. I'm going to learn how to do that. I'm going to chat. Chad. Ask me a question. Ask me a question. [42:15] Mark: Power move. JD do you color your beard? [42:23] JD: I'll have to think about that, Chad. [42:28] Don Trone: So I listened to your choices. I'm not sure I was able to pick either one. Are we attempting to elevate the professional Fiduciary to a doctor status? No, that's not one of the objectives. Are we trying to come out with a super designation designation now? In fact, we're using what we're going to be filing for a trademark is the acronym Board Certified Fiduciary. BCF being the acronym. [43:10] Chad: Still counts. [43:12] Don Trone: Still counts. [43:16] JD: Yeah. No, fair enough. I like it. You're saying no, J.D. not trying to do that. Not trying to do that. We got a deeper kind of mission here. [43:24] Mark: Is it? [43:25] Don Trone: Yeah. So it's not. And we have no intention of becoming a designation mill. I mean, the people that are going to go through this coursework are going to end up with an academic executive education certificate from a. I'm not at liberty to identify the university or universities that we're going to be working with, but they're top tier business schools in the country. The people that get this new designation or professional mark will have to complete graduate level coursework at these leading universities. As well as go through a peer review of subject matter experts, fiduciary experts who just like, if you're defending a PhD, you have that oral dissertation. [44:21] Chad: Does that count? Does that count? [44:23] JD: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [44:26] Don Trone: Oh, yeah, yeah. [44:27] JD: I don't know what it stands for, [44:28] Mark: but yeah, I don't know either. [44:31] Don Trone: Doctorate in philosophy. [44:33] JD: Yeah, but what's the H and the D here? I don't know. No, I. Go ahead. [44:39] Chad: The more and more you say all this and the. The advanced education and all of that of these high established universities. I hate to be negative in any sort of way, but all I can think about is this is just going to add to the student debt problem, isn't it? Or are these going to be paid [44:58] Mark: for by your foundation that you're setting [44:59] Chad: up that you haven't talked tonight? [45:02] JD: Go ahead. You can answer his question. [45:04] Don Trone: Yeah, they'll be covered by pay to play schemes. [45:07] Chad: That's what I've done. [45:09] JD: I would say Biden's got them covered. It's all good. [45:12] Chad: No, I like. [45:13] JD: I like what you're saying, Don. I just want to say what you said to me, what the way I'm interpreting it is. No, we are about training people and putting people out there in the world, in the industry that will do a hell of a job and do it right and do it to certain principles and do it to certain ways that they've been trained on. I get it. Okay. That's a deeper mission. It's like, look, it's not about the designation. It's not about being looked at as a doctor. It's about putting people out there that know what the hell they're doing and doing it in a great way. And so I get it. Steep, man. Yes, Chad. [45:49] Mark: Well, I mean, I imagine most of the groups that created the AIF and aifa. Yes, Mark. Yes, Mark. I wanted to. They sat back and thought, oh, I [46:02] Chad: only have one branded. What is going on, man? [46:05] Don Trone: I love that. [46:08] Mark: That their thought was this is the designation that people are gonna put behind their signature and feel really good about. It's gonna show that they're a professional. And what I hear from Don is it's not necessarily about showing that you're a professional. Like, I don't. I don't have my college degree behind my name, but it did lead to something. [46:27] Chad: But you have to go to college, Chad. [46:30] Mark: I did go to college, Mark. It led to something significant for me. And I feel like what dawn is trying to say is we need to elevate the status entirely of who is a fiduciary. From not necessarily needing a designation, but to truly being knowledgeable in this space. And that's what I think is admirable about this. But my fear, Don, is that people are going to look at it and go, well, what benefit does it lead for me if it's not a selling point? As PCH mentioned in the chat bar, it's not a designation behind my name. Yeah, you're going to teach me the industry, but I can get that much cheaper through other avenues. [47:08] JD: But can you? And I'm not going to speak on Don's behalf, but not in the, I'm guessing not in the way that this entity wants to do it, you know. Yeah, right, Don. [47:17] Don Trone: Yeah. So a couple things. When I created the. [47:30] JD: You're good, you're good, don't panic. [47:33] Don Trone: When I created the Accredited Investment Fiduciary designation and then the Accredited Investment Fiduciary Analyst designation, Those were just core courses, basic foundational courses there. Twenty years ago, no one was providing any training on fiduciary best practices. In fact, when I began to develop the curriculum, I went and visited. Now you really got me over the barrel here. Chartered Financial Analysts, Certified Financial Planning Board. [48:13] Chad: Impressive. [48:15] JD: Impressive. [48:16] Don Trone: Yeah. Back when it was the Investment Management Consultants Association, I visited all of these well established programs and I said, you don't have anything in your curriculum that's covering fiduciary. Now maybe, maybe they have a paragraph that says a fiduciary duty of loyalty, duty of care. But I mean a true deep dive into fiduciary practices. No one had it. And I said, I do not want to start it as a. [48:46] JD: Watch it, Greg. Don't worry about that, Don. Just keep flowing. Come on, you're a veteran. You're a veteran on the show now let it go. [48:55] Don Trone: I said, I don't want to start another designation. Even 20 years ago I said there's too many designations. But I said, this subject is critically important and I would encourage you to add the content to your existing programs. And I said, we'll build the content. All you have to do is just added as a module. And they all said no, they had no interest. I mean, they had no interest in fiduciary. [49:21] JD: I first want to be clear to the audience, Chad does not have his qk. Oh, checking. He does not have it yet. Don, I hear you. And back to Chad's comment. I, I, I think that if you, we've talked about this a bit in the past on this show, but if, if you truly want to be good at what you do you do have to invest time in your education? And Chad, you're right. In the current world, sure, you can. You can hop on the Internet and learn things and read stuff, and you can go to different organizations to get your designation. I mean, there's lots of ways you can do things. But if you really want to be effective, you're going to get that. You're going to be most effective through experience, right? It's going to take you 30, 40 years to get to a point where you've seen and done all those things. But if you're younger and early on and you want to kind of leapfrog a lot of that stuff and get to a higher level, then you would go to something like this and you would train yourself and you wouldn't do it because it was cheap or because it was affordable or what? Or because you're going to get a designation. You would do it because you just want to be a 401k stud and. Or a fiduciary stud, and that's why you do it. And by the way, human beings do want to be good at stuff because they know that they're going to be more successful. [50:50] Mark: I'm not disagreeing in any way, but I'm trying to ask, and I feel like I made the argument for it, I was trying to ask what the benefit is to them. Like, how are they able to display this other than intellectual capital? [51:05] JD: They're killing it. [51:06] Mark: No designation behind it. Kind of like a college degree nowadays. And I think that there certainly is benefit, but that's what I was pointing out. [51:15] Don Trone: Here it is. [51:16] JD: There you go. Nice, nice. I like it. [51:20] Don Trone: It's the challenge. It's the challenge going, you know, kind of put a ribbon on what we're talking about here. You name the profession, a profession, and what's common to all profession is that the professionals are lifelong learners. There's. There's no such thing as, you know, I completed my coursework for this body and I'm done, you know, for the rest of their life, they're perfecting their craft. [51:47] JD: 100% love that. [51:49] Don Trone: And it stopped, you know, in this fiduciary space, it stopped. It came to a cold stop 10 years ago when the foundation for Fiduciary Studies got sued. That was it. You know, the pioneers, the thought leaders, [52:12] JD: I blame it on the millennials. It's all fucking Mark and Justin and Chad. They come along and they're like, just like, oh, this, this should be a piece of cake. Whatever. I'm good. I know what I'M doing and they. They can't even pass their qka and they think that they got their together, not failed it. I hear you, John. Oh, yes, I'll drink from that. Mark. I'm bringing back an oldie and a goodie. [52:35] Mark: J.D. [52:35] JD: hold on, Chad. I'm running out of time. [52:39] Mark: Go, go. I'll ask him in the after show. [52:41] JD: Yeah, we'll go after show. I'm bringing back an oldie buddy goodie for you guys out there. Yeah, it's not lamer game because I didn't prepare for that. It's not the. It's not the movie trivia. Damn it. It's times with drunk. Was it different times with drunk. Mark and I want to set this up. I want to set this up real quick and say that Mark is talking to my daughter in this, and she is 18 now, but I think she was probably 13 or 14 at the time. And. Yeah. So anyways, that's who he's talking to. Oh, I love this one, by the way. Then turn it off and live your life. Okay, that's got lights in it. Okay. Turn everything off that has a light and try to live your life. Your voice. Where's your phone? It's right there. That's got lights in it. Batman, right? [53:38] Chad: That's right. [53:38] JD: What? It's in your. Your phone's now mine. [53:41] Mark: Oh, my God. Give me my phone. [53:43] JD: Oh, turn off the tv. Okay. Where's the remote? Turn it off. I'm fine. Yeah, you are. I am. I'm g. I'm fine. [53:53] Mark: You got gab. You got to go. [53:56] JD: Mark, you got to go unplug the Christmas. [53:58] Don Trone: I'm not. [53:59] JD: That's too scary, Mark. [54:03] Justin: I don't remember that. [54:04] Mark: When the hell was that? [54:05] Chad: What was that? [54:06] JD: You don't remember that? [54:08] Don Trone: No. [54:08] JD: Apparently Brandon reminded me. We started some conversation about how you could see the stars better if it was dark around you. You were somewhere where there were no lights, but you were drunk. This is after. And you were, like, you somehow got really upset about the concept of living in a world with no lights, and you needed to prove to everyone in the room what a nightmare that would be. [54:32] Mark: You know, J.D. that was that. That was around Christmas time, obviously, because of the Christmas lights. Was that when you used to do your sport challenges where we all came over and we tried golfing and basketball, [54:47] Justin: and I was there, so we never did that. [54:52] Mark: I don't remember that night. [54:55] Justin: Greg's got a good point. J.D. in sports. [54:57] Chad: Yeah. Who was filming that on their phone? [55:00] Mark: And why is that? [55:01] Chad: So still Saved. And that's. [55:03] JD: That's actually on episode 11 of Retireholics. That's on the end. [55:08] Justin: Is that when pot came? [55:10] JD: I don't know. [55:11] Chad: Which house was that in Dublin? [55:14] JD: That was my house up in Dublin, yeah. [55:16] Justin: Oh, okay. [55:16] JD: But that is actually right now on YouTube on episode 11. It's at the end. So, anyways, I was stoked when I found that one today. I was cracking up all by myself. [55:25] Chad: What happened to my voice? [55:27] Mark: I don't even. You've been drinking for 12 hours, probably. [55:31] JD: Chad. [55:31] Chad: Can't even remember when that was from, dude. [55:34] Don Trone: Come on. [55:35] JD: Chad. If you remember, you may now please go ahead and ask Mr. Dontron your question. [55:40] Mark: Oh, I thought you wanted it in the after show. I was going to ask, did the education for fiduciary stop? Because. And this goes back to my question from earlier. We stopped putting as much emphasis on what it really takes to be a fiduciary. My question earlier, saying that people found procedures and said, I can be a fiduciary because I've got this, this, and this procedure in place, and it doesn't really change anything of my knowledge. And I feel like that's when the education for who a fiduciary was stopped. [56:13] Don Trone: Yeah, that's a good point. I wouldn't disagree with you or add to what you just said is one of the banes of technology was that we made it easier. Too easy. And we stopped thinking, right? [56:32] JD: Just Simply to, like, scoring funds and stuff and, like, putting it in a system, and voila. Here's your fiduciary review output that you can bring to your client. And God forbid, if you're an advisor showing up to a fiduciary review meeting and you haven't even looked at, like, what fund is supposed to be replaced and why, that you're probably not doing the same job that Don's talking about that people did 10 years ago, where you'd walk in and be like, I know exactly why we need to replace this fund. It's fallen below in these categories. This is what this means. And maybe we're getting to a world now where everyone's like, I don't know. You replace it because Fi360 tells you you have to replace it. And I love Fi360. They're awesome. But, yeah, fair enough. It's a weird world. Technology has mushed our brains a little bit. [57:24] Mark: Agreed. [57:25] Don Trone: So if we're running out of time here, I want to share something with you guys. One of the nice things about this new organization and, like, I said it's got 35 subject matter experts, what we call specialty leaders, working on it. And so we've got a very flat organization where everybody has input, there's total transparency and so forth. So as we were getting ready for this week, and this is the week that we're officially announcing the release and we're going through the public relations checklist. What do we need to do to do, you know, announce what we're doing? Of course, you know, you sign up for Business Wire and you do your message map. And on the checklist is try to get on Retireholics [58:19] JD: Media. [58:21] Don Trone: In just a couple years, you guys have become a validating platform. [58:27] JD: Wait, I think John Sullivan's on tonight. Was 401k, Specialist magazine above or below Retireholics on that checklist? Never mind, Don, you don't have to answer that. [58:39] Don Trone: No, John and I knocked off an article last night, so he was about 24 hours ahead of you. [58:46] JD: That's fantastic. That's fantastic. Thanks, Don. We appreciate that and I appreciate you coming here to share something like that. Because our goal as a show really beyond the having fun and drinking the beer, is to try to deliver, you know, up to date value to advisors tuning in. And so we're thankful that you would use our venue to do that. And yeah, we're, we're grateful that you're here to do it, so. And hopefully the advisors feel like they can come here to learn stuff. Sully just said I blew the COVID It's over. [59:22] Don Trone: Well, I'll tell you, the first time I saw you guys, it was, [59:29] Mark: I [59:29] Don Trone: remember it was one of the Excel conferences. I forget what they call it now. Two times, four Times, wealth at Work [59:35] JD: Advisor to X, Advisor two X and wealth at Work is the new name of Excel Phone K. Okay, so it [59:42] Don Trone: was a conference a couple years back. It was in Las Vegas and I was working a booth on one side of the conference room. You guys were on the other side in a corner set up. First time I. First time I had seen you, first time I was exposed to you in any way, shape or form at the same conference was my first time that I saw Gene the 401k lady. [1:00:11] JD: Jeannie. Yeah. [1:00:13] Don Trone: And I'm seeing all this stuff going on in the conference room floor and I was intimidated. I'm like, what the heck is going on? [1:00:20] JD: I thought you were going to say what is going on with our industry? [1:00:28] Don Trone: And so it's amazing to see how valid all these new things have become. I mean, you guys have contributed all these new folks that are coming all these new faces. I see Jake's K being worn by Mark over there. I mean, there's really a lot of incredibly creative things going on in the 401k space. [1:00:59] Mark: And [1:01:01] Don Trone: what seemed alarming just three years ago now has been validated in spades. And all that collectively the new group has contributed. [1:01:15] JD: It means so much to us that for you to say something like that. And I've had these conversations with Nevin Adams, but for Frederic should come on here. Nevin Adams, Sal Tripote, the list goes on and on of people that really were huge or still are huge parts of this industry before we even knew what 401k was. Just means a ton to us. And so in the surfing community, you really look up to the older surfers. They kind of teach you the way. And I feel the same way about you and your peers, and I know the boys do, too. So we're super thankful. This got really emotional. Everybody means so much. [1:01:55] Don Trone: Don. [1:01:56] JD: We're going to stick around for a little after show. We're going to stick around for a little after show, but I want everyone to know that don't forget to join Retireholics Anonymous, Retireholics with A C on LinkedIn groups. And next week we've got Matt Wolnowitz, who I just is now the president of Income America. So we'll learn. We'll learn more about that next week. Justin, Daniela, you still want to come in, pick us up? [1:02:26] Justin: Oh, thought you were asking me to bring people in now. [1:02:28] JD: We'll go after. We got a song. It's your week to pick a song. It's Justin's week to pick a song. [1:02:32] Justin: I hope you like this one, JD Jesus. [1:02:34] JD: Give us 0 to 10 on what you think, Justin. Do you need to intro it or set it up in any way? [1:02:38] Justin: No, everyone knows this song. [1:02:40] JD: All right, play it and then we'll do a little after show. [1:02:57] Justin: Greg, who plays it at hand? [1:03:08] JD: She took the Midnight Trainer. Just a born and raised right here in Houston. The hell is that? [1:03:24] Justin: He's in Houston. [1:03:40] JD: We should have a little break now. I like his shirt. [1:03:57] Chad: It's not Gucci, so you probably won't buy it. [1:04:24] Speaker F: These go to 11. [1:04:29] Chad: How does B have that loaded that Nice job. [1:04:35] Mark: Perfectly used to let the marginally dedicated folks leave. [1:04:40] Chad: Yep. [1:04:40] Mark: And those who want to stick around for the real bs, just stick around. [1:04:46] Chad: Marginally dedicated. That's so nice of you. [1:04:50] Don Trone: So is the acronym stuff still going? [1:04:54] Justin: Yeah, we're good now. [1:04:55] JD: Speak freely. It's all done. [1:04:57] Chad: JD Bar champion. [1:05:00] Justin: Yeah. [1:05:00] JD: Oh, my God. You know, it's just Chad, because Chad. I. I wanted Chad to get his question in, and he had to get in after show. Well, we still got plenty of people here, so let's get Chap our champion. Let's do it. And then we'll get to the after show conversation. [1:05:16] Don Trone: Can I not add something? I want to go back to something. At the beginning, you had mentioned this new platform that's doing the RFPs for record keepers. [1:05:28] JD: Yes, yes. Benetech. Genetic Benetech. [1:05:35] Don Trone: 20 years ago, when I moved to Pittsburgh to build the AIF program, the Fi360 and so forth, there was a startup company. It was more than a startup. It was very successful, called Free Markets. And the business concept behind Free Markets was that a person. This was really built for big government organizations. Like, if you were the city of Pittsburgh and you needed sand for the winter to sand the streets, you would go to Free Markets, and the city of Pittsburgh would post what they need, and then vendors would compete, and the city of Pittsburgh then could see all the offerings that were being made, including the pricing, and then be able to pick the vendor that they wanted. And it kind of seems like 20 years ago they were further ahead than what we were just describing that's going on now with. With the record keepers. So maybe the better approach is, you know, you enter and, you know, you say, I'm representing a plan sponsor, and this is what we need, and these are the characteristics, and these are the demographics and allow organizations to post to [1:07:04] JD: quote specifically to that. [1:07:05] Don Trone: Yeah, yeah. Their service offering and allow the plan sponsor to look through it. [1:07:09] JD: And that's interesting. That's interesting. You bring that up like kind of a bidding process. I do know that this one is being used to give intel to the record keepers. Right. So they can kind of see how they're comparing. So that's kind of interesting. But it's not what you're talking about, Don, which is an interesting idea, which would be like an actual bidding. Yeah, yeah, it's tough. I don't want to disagree with the great Don Trone, but part of me feels like I don't want to get to a spot where we're all trying to undercut each other and bid for stuff. I'd rather get to a point where people put in their fees, determine what their fees are, and be fricking proud of your damn fees for the service you provide. But, Chad, I appreciated your comments earlier about it's so complicated in the proposal world. If we decide to talk about in the after show, we Can a little bit. I know we're in the after show, but let's get the CBC out of the way. Who's your vote Chad to make the finals for cbc? [1:08:08] Mark: Oh shit. You went straight to me. I was waiting between Daniela and there was one other who was. [1:08:14] JD: Can I ask you, Chad, do you. Do you immediately write off Hackler and Greg and do you not even consider them? [1:08:22] Mark: I don't. But their, their threshold is high now. [1:08:25] JD: Okay. [1:08:26] Mark: Like it takes a lot for them to break over Kelly. [1:08:29] JD: Kelly Slater's got to earn his 10. Like fair enough. [1:08:34] Mark: So yeah, I'm sticking with Daniela. [1:08:36] JD: Daniela. Daniela Moises. That. Yeah, okay. [1:08:41] Mark: Daniela, Massachusetts and new Chad, which is secretly me on my other laptop. Oh, you got a burner account. [1:08:50] Justin: You're dechristina, by the way. [1:08:53] JD: I think Hackler told me I was sipping on the same 24 ouncer so I had to show him that I actually finished one. I crushed it, but I still had a lot of in the bottom and it's spilling all over my desk to the right. Just kind of fun fact. But it's stuck on the bottom of this one now. Anyways, mark your vote. [1:09:12] Chad: Oh, it's a thousand percent New Chad. [1:09:15] Mark: I'm obsessed with new Chad. This is the best. I already accepted his friend request on l LinkedIn. New. [1:09:22] Chad: Yeah, New Chad. [1:09:23] Justin: I'm. [1:09:23] Chad: I'm coming for you, buddy. Best friends. [1:09:27] JD: Justin. [1:09:29] Justin: I'm gonna go with Sully. [1:09:31] JD: Oh, wow. [1:09:36] Mark: Got such a sales mind. [1:09:37] JD: All right, Brandon, you getting these down? Mr. Tron, who's your vote for? To go into the finals for Chat bar Champion. The audience will vote for the winner. [1:09:48] Don Trone: I have no idea what you're talking about. [1:09:51] JD: Best answer, Best answer ever. Best answer ever. I. [1:09:59] Don Trone: Are you talking about the little chat stuff that. The little pop ups at the bottom? [1:10:04] JD: Yeah, I don't think we were doing [1:10:05] Justin: this last time he was on. [1:10:07] JD: What we do is whoever's been the funniest, the most intelligent, the most disruptive, whatever you like, whatever your jam is, you vote for that person. And then they go into the finals to win Chat bar champion. Meaning they were the leader of that little chat bar. They were the best. No, Hackler's best. No one's telling the guest how this works. I'm actually going to vote. I'm actually going to vote for four time champion Will Hackler. Just because he keeps us honest. He is. He's not afraid to talk some shit about us. [1:10:42] Don Trone: Whoa. [1:10:44] JD: Here. Who's the Randy's in here. So I. I'm going with Hackler. We're gonna throw him into the final. There's no way you're gonna win, Hackler, because when you're at the top, everyone hates you. You're four time champ. They won't vote for you. Here we go. [1:11:00] Mark: Could I vote? [1:11:01] Don Trone: Could I vote? [1:11:01] Mark: Yeah, yeah, we can vote. [1:11:04] Don Trone: So smart, Sully. John Sullivan. [1:11:09] Chad: Yeah. [1:11:09] JD: Yes. And people are voting now. I guess I'm the only one that. [1:11:14] Chad: I'm the only one that's wouldn't be be smart, Justin. Hey, if John Sullivan won't let us on the magazine, I'm not going to [1:11:22] Mark: peer pressure the guy. [1:11:23] Chad: Oh, no. [1:11:23] Mark: Dick Mark. That's what you get called the voting early to make sure Sully like that, [1:11:32] Chad: no idea what you're talking about. Got 21% of the vote. [1:11:37] JD: I'm just thinking our crew is fighting for us. They're thinking if we give Sully this award, maybe he'll return the favor. There you go. [1:11:46] Chad: Hey, we'll send you your package that you won as soon as we get on your cover. [1:11:53] JD: Oh, holding it out. You know what I know about John Sullivan, Mark? I don't think he likes it. He doesn't like threats like that. He'll definitely [1:12:04] Mark: Fiduciary and journalism. All right. We need to buy Sully off [1:12:10] JD: as another fun one and so everyone can see the results. They all see the results. Yeah, it's all good. Yeah, we know Sullivan's a champ. Congratulations, John Sullivan. You did a fantastic job in the chat bar today. And you are the champion. The one and only champion. And fantastic. [1:12:27] Speaker F: That's fantastic. Fantastic, Fantastic. That's fantastic. Fantastic, Fantastic. That's fantastic. That's fantastic. [1:12:34] Mark: Fantastic. [1:12:34] Speaker F: That's fantastic. Fantastic, Fantastic, Fantastic, Fantastic. That's fantastic. Fantastic. That's fantastic. Fantastic, Fantastic, Fantastic, Fantastic, Fantastic, Fantastic, fantastic, Fantastic. That's fantastic. Yeah, that's fantastic. Fantastic, fantastic, Fantastic. That's fantastic. Fantastic, fantastic, Fantastic. It's fantastic. Fantastic. Absolutely. Well, wonderful Genie, that was fantastic. Thanks. I was going to say you thank. [1:12:59] JD: Probably some of our best work. [1:13:00] Mark: Here goes our chances. [1:13:02] JD: Some of Brandon's best work. Don, before we tackle some more serious subjects, do you have any idea what the Fiduciary Accredited Retirement Technician is? Designation? Do we lose, Don? [1:13:20] Don Trone: No, no, I'm here. [1:13:23] JD: Have you ever heard of the Fiduciary Accredited Retirement Technician? [1:13:27] Don Trone: Yes, I have. [1:13:28] JD: Okay, you have one. [1:13:31] Don Trone: No. And I fell for that the first time too. I saw it posted somewhere. I guess it must have been LinkedIn. I'm like, oh my God, what is this? Yeah, I took it seriously. [1:13:49] JD: What you need to do what you need to do is actually go to it. So there's a link Greg just posted in the chat bar, but it's retireholics.com fart and you can actually answer questions, take the test and you get a certificate in your email right away. So Brandon's showing it there. [1:14:08] Don Trone: Well, the one I would suggest is professional registered investment consultant [1:14:16] JD: Brick. [1:14:17] Mark: Got it. Took us all a minute. [1:14:22] JD: I had a discussion with Mark today, work wise, and I don't want to get deep into the cannabis part of it, although that was kind of interesting. Mark's working on a large cannabis prospect out here in California. You know, we got a lot of that going on these days and these are legit companies with hundreds and hundreds of employees at times. But what you brought up to me, Mark, I thought was interesting for us to discuss is this particular prospect has some issues in front of it. There's some complicated things that they need to understand and assess to make proper steps forward. And you and your advisor are competing with another advisor. And it seems to me through our communication that this other advisor is taking a simple approach, like an easy approach of like, oh, let's not talk about all that disaster, all that mess. Don't worry about it. It's going to be fine. Let's move along. And so the question I want to ask you guys is, and it will involve Don, because in the past, I think scaring people with their fiduciary responsibility was a sales tactic. How do you. Let's go to you, Mark, first. How do you feel about when selling to a client, sharing all of the complicated details versus kind of sweeping that to the side and making it seem more friendly and easier, like it's a tough dynamic. Where do you fall on that spectrum? [1:15:53] Chad: I will. Again, hard for me to answer that. Did you ask me? [1:15:57] JD: Yeah. [1:15:57] Chad: Okay. The hard to answer that because I'm engulfed in this situation and I feel like I'm kind of. I'm angling more towards that instead of going more general. But I will say in this, in this particular case, it didn't feel like they were going the simple route. I think they were just trying to sell. They're just. I think they're desperate, right? They're just coming in and going, hey, you know those other folks you work with? Yeah, fuck them. We're just going to cut them out and then I'm going to lower your cost by taking you this route. Which, by the way, we haven't done our research. We haven't looked into anything. We haven't opened up the hood like these Other professionals have. And in a couple years, this thing's probably going to blow up in your face. [1:16:41] JD: I don't think they use those exact words. [1:16:43] Mark: No, that's not what they said. [1:16:44] Chad: That's what I interpreted from what I heard. Right. And so where do I sit on that spectrum? I'm far to the side of that spectrum, going, I want to get in the weeds, I want to dive in, I want to open that hood. I don't know how to fix a motor, but I'm going to look at it right, and I'm going to determine what needs to be done, what needs to be communicated to the client so that they're aware and they understand what their liabilities are. And the visor over here too is really good. And he knows exactly what's going on. I just think over here it's. It's the people I think in my mind that Don's looking at going, they're not, they're not going to qualify for this designate or not, I shouldn't say designation, this, this advanced degree, that because they're failed, they're the people that. [1:17:25] Mark: They're the people that are making. [1:17:31] JD: I. What I want to ask you though is. And Chad, you spoke on four on Jake's four on club pretty recently. You did a phenomenal job, by the way. If anyone hasn't seen that check out, can they see that? They can see it on YouTube. They don't have to be. [1:17:46] Mark: He put it up as one of his clubs. [1:17:49] JD: So you can see where Chad's talking about how to kind of how to deal in a point of sale with control groups and dealing with clients. And you kind of, you cross over into this Chad where you were trying to talk about not getting too complex to where. Because my fear is that sometimes the client's gonna be like, oh, this guy's just trying to like make this guy or girl trying to make themselves look important, right? Like, oh, they know so much stuff and this is so scary. And if I don't listen to this person, then I'm gonna be in big trouble. And sometimes that can be taken the wrong way. So is that something that you are cognizant of, Chad, and fearful of crossing that line? [1:18:28] Mark: Absolutely. There's a line where you're making it too complex and you're almost selling against your services because they can't understand what their decision making process actually is. And there's also a line on the latter end, on the smaller end where you are just selling. And Mark, you used the term as you started that Conversation. These people are just selling. They're trying to get the relationship, which is why throughout the. The dubs there is. They're trying to get the relationship, they're trying to make the money, even though it is not in the best interest of the client. Back to our term earlier. And I see that all the damn time. I saw today, just to give you guys a loose example of this. It's a TPA switch or they're actually moving record keepers too, but from paychecks on where the client is clearly in a position to fund profit sharing. Nobody said a single word to them about it. They're in the middle of the transition. I'm talking with them. I said, did any. Anybody talk to you about why you're using the 3% safe harbor versus a match? He said, no, we just told them we were done with paycheck. So they literally took our document, rewrote it on their TPA document, and moved us over to John Hancock. [1:19:42] JD: So I. Go ahead. [1:19:46] Justin: Some of the biggest problems, I think, in with this all is yes, there's. There's a problem on the consultant side, without a doubt. But you also have the problem on the client side. They don't give two. A lot of them just don't give two shit. They don't want to pay attention to that. And if someone can come to them and say, hey, this is going to be this easy, just like Mark dealt with, like, they're attracted to it. I mean, we're dealing with stuff right now where plans were set up five months ago. And we keep telling the client like, hey, you need to get us this shit now. You were supposed to be doing this five months ago. And they're not. They're just focused on running their business and that there's a gap between there. How do you bridge that gap? Because they don't want to hear it. [1:20:23] JD: I think that can be a bigger problem. But I'm more for this conversation kind of like focusing on sales. And I'm wondering, like, I don't want the. The. The student of the game, the person that Don Trone would pat on the back for being a great advisor. I don't want that advisor to lose in competition to someone else because they're. They're overcomplicating things. So what I'm trying to get with you guys is, is there a way. And of course there has to be, right, to go in and still communicate to your client in a kind of chill way, like, look, this is a. Is a serious thing. There are some things that you're going to have to pay attention to and get done. But I'm here for you. And can you. Can you do. Yes, Don. Fire away. [1:21:09] Don Trone: Okay, this is where the new research really begins to pay off, because we now know from neuroscience you're not going to get to trust through complexity. That's number one. That doesn't mean you make it simple, but we know that the more you make it complex, the client can't get to a level of trust. And you need that level of trust to get to the. Yes, that. The other thing I would add is that we know from the neuroscience that trust requires three elements. You need to demonstrate your compassion. In other words, I'm here for you, your character, and your competence. So you could say, well, doesn't competence and complexity, yeah, they can go hand in hand sometimes? Or, I mean, you have to demonstrate a certain level of competence that you know what you're doing without crossing over into complexity. So it's compassion, character, and competence. [1:22:22] Mark: This is the first time in a Retireholics episode I actually, like, took notes outside of what I want to say, but what I'm being taught. So thank you. Don't. [1:22:32] JD: Nerd alert. [1:22:34] Mark: And nerd alert. If I know that you gotta let me fly. I know. I know that you listen to that podcast and is that not exactly what I said? And these guys have heard my entire sales technique, if you want to call me a salesman, is to build enough trust that the person listening to what I'm saying says, I can take his guidance. [1:23:06] JD: Now, I actually think that. [1:23:09] Justin: I'm sorry, Chad. All I heard on that was tpas or doormats. [1:23:14] Chad: All I heard from that from Chad was, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. [1:23:18] JD: Well, it's funny. [1:23:19] Mark: We could. [1:23:19] JD: We could actually do a little therapy session in front of everyone here as a sales team. I think that part of Chad's charisma and a point of sale is his nerdiness. And so I do think that Chad has a natural ability to show seriousness about things, but do it in, like, a nerdy way where he's not in there trying to. I don't think people think of Chad as, like, oh, there's a sales guy trying to throw a bunch of fancy terms at me. I think they look at him and go, oh, wow, this guy, like, really loves what he does, and he really knows about all this shit. And he seems very trustworthy. And so I think I should listen to what he's saying. But you're also smart enough, Chad, to know that if, like, Don said, if you cross that line into complexity. I went with my. When I first learned this business, I shadowed my father and he took me to point of sales. And the first 3, 4, 5, 6 point of sales, I sat in with him. We got back in the car and we drive 45 minutes back to the office. I was clean shaven, short hair, suit and tie, sometimes some nice little cufflinks and. And he'd say, how do you think that went? How do you think that went? And I'd say, dad, I understood like 15% of what the fuck you were talking about. And I think your clients did too. I think your prospect didn't know what the fuck you're talking about because they're like me, they don't understand this shit and you're talking to them. And I think in some of those scenarios I would tell my dad, I think you blew it because you're way up here and they're way down here. There was other types when I'd walk away and go, oh yeah, you impress the hell out of them. Like they think you're super smart. So I think part of this might be gauging your audience, right? Like looking at the people that you're selling to and trying to figure out like, do I if I go too high with these people, I'm going to lose this and you're going to lose it to someone who's not nearly as smart as you and not nearly as experienced as you are. And that's what I don't want to [1:25:27] Mark: have happen because they're a salesperson. But that's the balancing act, J.D. that's what makes a good consultant, a good consultant. When you can take the complex and make it understandable for the person you're speaking to, relatable to the person you're speaking to. And in a way in which they look and say, this person really gets what I need and I'm going to trust them and I'm going to take their guidance. Greg's good consultant. [1:25:52] JD: Greg's hitting on the core of what I'm. The conversation I'm trying to get fired up with you guys is Greg saying, look better to over explain than have them not know? And that's really what this kind of debate I want to have happen is like, are you going to really shield, are you going to shield your prospect from responsibilities that they have and know because you're just trying to close the business? Because I would say that that's not what Don Trone wants people to do. [1:26:19] Mark: Oh, but that was Mark's point. [1:26:21] Chad: So don't put words in my mouth. [1:26:24] Mark: That was not my point, Mark. That was. Your point is they were, they were avoiding the actual competency of that conversation. And we see it all the time. Those are sales folks. [1:26:35] Justin: We get that, but. [1:26:37] Chad: Right, I get that. [1:26:37] Justin: Unless it's explained to the client, they don't know the difference. [1:26:41] Don Trone: So try to sell. Try this. The next time you're in a finals presentation, start your presentation by asking the question, how does this organization, people you're talking to, how does this organization define leadership? [1:26:58] JD: And you know what else you do next time you're in a point of sale? I'm going to back up, Don. Before, when they ask you questions, take long pauses before you answer. [1:27:07] Mark: Like rub your beard. [1:27:10] Don Trone: Three second rule. Yeah, three second rule. [1:27:13] JD: Is that a rule in your head? Three seconds. Hold on. [1:27:16] Justin: That's about the count. Now you think about it. [1:27:18] JD: Yeah, I have the half second rule. It's like a millisecond rule. Let me talk. Hold on. [1:27:25] Chad: Don, can you. Don, can you say that again and just go and expand? [1:27:31] Don Trone: Sure. One of the things that we've been trying to develop over the last couple years, actually last 10 years, is the correlation between an organization's understanding of leadership and the success of their 401k plan. Go a little bit deeper. You were talking about Cal Service. The reason why we need Cal servers and all the additional belts and suspenders we need to get more people into retirement is that 70% of American workers don't trust the company they work for. And if they don't trust the company they work for, they're not going to trust the company's benefits. And so when you have statistics like that, you've got to start with the very basic, which is if you want to fix your 401k plan or you want to provide a great 401k plan. Well, first of all, the question is, do you want to provide a great 401k plan to your employees? And that's why the opening question needs to be, how does this organization define leadership? Now if they, they will struggle. They'll throw a couple, but they'll struggle. And you respond with a very simple sentence. Leadership is your ability to inspire and engage others. So tell me, what's inspiring and engaging about your 401k plan? Or is it a goal and objective of this company to inspire and engage its workers to participate in the benefits that you're offering? If they don't give a shit, and there's a lot that don't, well, then that tells you how to proceed with your proposal, Tony, just throw the cheapest bundled thing you got out there. Don't waste your breath trying to talk about the attributes of it. Just. Okay, you want Acme 401k? [1:29:37] JD: Tony, I could answer that in zero seconds, but hang on a second. [1:29:41] Justin: Pause for three. [1:29:43] JD: This isn't about me. Justin. I feel like earlier you said 401k plan, doormat, TPA, doormat, you said, oh, clients don't give a shit, which we all know, right? Like, and you play in this micro market, you know, start up to 25 million. And so you're, you're on the front lines, you walk in a lot of places where the people you're trying to talk to, the 401k doesn't mean that much to them. I like what Don's talking about. Where maybe the best way for you and others who face that to approach it is to start to have those conversations about why this is important or start to focus more on the benefit and the people and less kind of walking in there talking about fees, funds and fiduciary and no offense, Don, and more talking about, hey, do you guys want your 401k plan or not? And if you do, like, don't you want it to work well for the, for the people, regardless of whether you're going to get sued or what the fiduciary rule means to you or how much this record keeper costs versus let's talk about. You got a fucking plan, you're going to have one. So don't we want to make it the best we can? [1:30:58] Justin: That's exactly where it starts. It's definitely with us, right? It's not going to change otherwise. I don't think, you know, people need to be consulted on it. And the more people that do, I think that becomes the norm. So. You're absolutely right there. The problem is over so many years, just like with the fiduciary stuff, it's been watered down and consultants are just trying to, again, like you guys talked about earlier, win that plan. And they're doing whatever they can to make it simple because that's what people want. But it absolutely starts with us and we have to shift that conversation. [1:31:27] JD: I have two choices in those scenarios. I'm not saying the first one's a dumb choice, but I can either acknowledge that and accept that, like, go, okay, I'm walking into places where people don't give a shit. And so I.