Sea World Lawsuit & Fee Strategy with Josh Itzoe

[0:00] JD: Of retireholics. We're so glad that you could join us today. My name is James Douglas Carlson the Third. I'm joined by Chadwick Johansen, Mark Kalmini. Unfortunately, Silent Justin could not be with us today. He's partying in Lake Havasu. Chad's on the road. Chad, you've been on the road for days now. [0:27] Chad: Yeah, days. And yet I'm here. [0:30] JD: I drove 40 minutes from a camping site that I've been at for the last three days to get this best western hotel room with bed bugs and plastic cups and just so I could get Internet. And just a little FYI to everyone out there, my Internet sucks. Brandon has moved me to cellular data, so if I freeze, Chad has assured me he'll take over the show and it'll be a seamless transition. We are also joined by everyone's favorite retireholic, Mark Palmini, AKA Rogue Guy. We got a guest. You know, we could, we could have done better. We searched around, we tried to find some of the big. Some of the. Some of the big names, and, you know, they weren't available. So I reached deep, deep, deep into my, my Rolodex and I found this guy, Josh Itzel. I'm joking, to be totally honest with you. If you threw a lie detector test on me, Josh itself falls in like my top five of retirement plan pros. And he's well versed on all the subjects. And I feel like he always is not afraid to share his opinion. He's got insights from several different perspectives. So I'm actually really excited about today, my connection with standing to have some deep conversations with Josh and get his thoughts on a bunch of stuff. So, Josh, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here, coming back. I failed to mention he's also written two books. You can get those books on Amazon. You know the drill. You know the drill. [2:13] Josh Itzoe: The chat bar check the check. [2:18] JD: I did links to him solid. [2:22] Josh Itzoe: She asked for, you know, a link. [2:24] Chad: JD Tonight was the first night I noticed in Brandon's intro that it actually pops us out of immersive view and shows our background. I feel like we can see into people's lives when they don't know you're going to see their background. And we get to. That was kind of exciting for me to see where you are. [2:41] JD: Oh, you got to see where I am tonight. [2:43] Mark: Yeah, I didn't see that. [2:45] JD: I didn't notice that. I have spent much of my time in Four Seasons and the Ritz and very nice hotels. I've forgotten what it's like to come to a Best Western. It's dirty, it's scary. [3:02] Josh Itzoe: Was that a humble brag, by the way? [3:04] JD: No, that's not. I never heard. Josh. [3:07] Josh Itzoe: That was humble. [3:09] JD: Josh. You clearly don't know me nor my character. I never humble brag. Those are straight up brags. I drive expensive cars, I live in fancy houses, and I make lots and lots of money. Everybody knows this. Let's do some housekeeping. [3:22] Chad: You're loud in a van down by the river. [3:27] JD: We're gonna play chat bar champion. Of course we are. So, Josh, you remember how that works? You need to watch that chat bar and make sure you vote someone at semis. Yes, Mark. No. [3:39] Chad: What? Never mind. [3:42] JD: I thought you had something to say. And we are going to play Acro Sin. And that starts now. So if you say any acronym or initialism, you must drink from your nasty drink. I've got a little kettle one mixed with some Canada Dry, but it's stiff for sure. [3:59] Chad: You always. That is not nasty, by the way. Yeah, that is a delightful drink that I wish I had right now. [4:06] Mark: I'll be honest, Chad, than you for saying something, because I feel like ever since we've kind of gone this path of zoom and all that, like, we're really, like, toeing the line between what this was all about versus just basically, I'm going to have a cocktail with my. With my show tonight. So, jd, first off, shame, shame, shame, shame. Secondly, this is going to change soon. This is absolute. [4:37] Josh Itzoe: That's all right. [4:39] JD: Just to clarify, I let. I let the guest know you do not have to swig straight from a bottle for your penalty. It's just your mixed drink. [4:46] Mark: I'm not very talking about our guests. I'm talking about you. [4:50] JD: Oh, I'm supposed to swig from the bottle every time? [4:54] Mark: No, no, no. Chad's saying, like, you're mixing. [4:56] Josh Itzoe: You. [4:56] Mark: Like you have a screwdriver. Like, that's not a penalty drink. [4:59] JD: That's a broken. I'm talking about filling it up like, you know, a lot. [5:05] Josh Itzoe: Hey, Chad, what's going on, man? How you doing? [5:09] Mark: Oh, he's muted. [5:12] Chad: Life's pretty good, Josh. Life's pretty good. How you doing? You guys talk about some retirement plan topics? [5:18] JD: Did I freeze? [5:20] Chad: No, we can all hear you. We're just choosing to ignore your remarks. Banter. [5:23] Mark: They don't. They don't like the awkwardness, I might say. [5:28] Josh Itzoe: What are we talking about? [5:29] JD: Yeah, we're getting there. We're getting there. You don't run the show, Josh. Shut the fuck up. Sit down for A second, people. [5:35] Josh Itzoe: Let's go. [5:36] JD: People love our banter. People love our banter. We're gonna go to Headlines real quick. We're gonna go to Headlines real quick. And when you're camping in Pine Crest, the way you go to Headlines is you go hop on the Internet 30 minutes before the show and you find out that there's a Sea World lawsuit thanks to Nevin Adams. So SeaWorld little close to San Diego Love is in the midst of a lawsuit. And Josh, I've got some questions for you around this one. I don't know if you've read it, but it's pretty stereotypical of a lot of the lawsuits we've seen. They're upset with the fact that they're using share classes in these funds and that they're, per their words, per the prospectus of these funds. There are cheaper share classes available to this, by the way. SeaWorld's about just north of 300 million, if I remember correctly. And so they feel like the funds are too expensive. And that's the whole lawsuit as far as I see it. So my question to you would be, would it make more sense for plans, say north of 50 million, 75 million as they go bigger, like, dude, just move to institutional share class of funds just to kind of keep away these types of lawsuits. And then if you need to add on a wrapper or your fee or however that works, just do that. Now is that crazy talk to have them all move that way? And then let me preface this and it's straight to Josh, because the counter is there was a time, if you ask me, that I was like, well, what's the difference between an A share and no wrapper or an institutional share class and a wrapper and built on fees assume they get to an equitable price. Like what's the fucking difference? But maybe, maybe it help against some of these lawsuits. What say you, Josh? It's a lord of two books. [7:26] Josh Itzoe: I don't know why anybody is not using lower lowest cost share classes and moving towards zero rev. And you know, those larger plans shouldn't be wrapping anything. If you look at the lawsuits that are out there, you know, Schlichter and now Capozi Adler, like they're pushing the narrative around fixed per participant fees. So, you know, I think if, if you're, and if you look at this one, Fred Reich and I were talking the other day because he's, he's doing some work for me and we were [7:55] Chad: just talking about like for you, man, beast mode. Josh, you got Fred, [8:06] Josh Itzoe: He Ain't cheap, I give you that. But he's helping me with some stuff. And we were just talking about that, you know, in. In 2020. How many lawsuits, ERISA lawsuits do you think were filed in 2020? [8:28] Chad: 206? [8:30] JD: I'm gonna say 174. [8:34] Josh Itzoe: It was 200 plus. Kaposi Adler filed 100 of them. Chad. Solid. [8:38] Mark: That's solid. [8:41] Josh Itzoe: And they're still around excessive fees and wrong share classes. So. Especially if you're. You mentioned SeaWorld's a $300 million plan. So litigation is coming down. On the last episode of my podcast, I had Jerry Schlichter, which was awesome, but he had said he thought that we got into an interesting discussion around the economics of litigating an ERISA lawsuit. And he said he thought litigation was going to. [9:12] JD: That is loud. [9:15] Josh Itzoe: That was loud. He said he thought it was going to come down to probably the $200 million range. So it's amazing to me that in this day and age, after 15 years of litigation, it's the same playbook now. It's starting to expand a little bit around target date funds and so on and so forth. But it still goes back to the bread and butter, which are share classes and excessive fees and the wrong fee structure. [9:41] Chad: And that's because it's black and white. Right. Like, that's pretty easy to identify when plans are overpriced or using an inappropriate share class. The prudence of investments is far more difficult, I feel like, to. Unless it's proprietary. And that's what we've seen a fair amount of litigation on. That's why I think it always goes back to the bread and butter. Because it's easy. [10:04] Josh Itzoe: Yeah, Right. And I don't see that. I don't actually see that slowing down. I think the scrutiny on fees is. Everybody likes to say fees, funds and fiduciary is like old school. And we're past that. I disagree. I actually, I think it's going to continue to accelerate, and I think the cast, or the net's going to get cast wider because you're going to see these plans coming down market. I mean, I. There was. I think it was Kaposi Adler against $1 billion plan in, like, North Carolina. Actually, it was wakemed. That's what it was. And they filed a lawsuit in like the summer of 2020, and they moved to settle right away. There are 20,000 participants, and they settled for like a million bucks. Total shakedown. Like, they settled in like seven months for a million bucks. Something around that range. It Wound up being like 50 bucks a participant. So hey, thanks a lot for that $50 that I just, that I got. I think you're going to see more attorneys that. The one thing I respect about Schlichter very much, I respect a lot about him. But the one thing is he goes to the, he goes to the mattresses like he is in it for as long as it takes. And I think you're going to see, you're seeing more plaintiffs attorneys who are filing litigation, getting into the space, cutting their teeth. They literally rip out his complaints word for word. And they're going to learn, they're going to learn over time. But I don't think most of these from firms in my opinion are wanting to go to the mattresses. I think they want to shake companies down. And I don't see it slowing down. I see it increasing from that perspective. [11:56] JD: Josh, you kind of hinted at it earlier. My second follow up question for you is going to be in Nevin's piece About this, about SeaWorld, there was also a paragraph that talked about the fact that they were upset that it was asset based revenue and they thought that it should be a per head type of charge. They went on to say that Mass Mutual, or I guess it should be all the defendants revenue had tripled over the course of some period of time, yet the number of heads had stayed the same. We know that asset based revenue is pretty prevalent in the micro and the small market. Yeah, you know, my larger clients kind of tap out, tap out at 100 million, you know, right in that zone. And I see even in that case it's still very prevalent. That still is the go to thing these days. Right. Like record keepers are making their money based on a percent of the assets versus a flat fee. Is there any world in which that that's okay? And what is the argument for that, if any? Like, because it's still, it's everywhere. It's everywhere, right? [13:05] Josh Itzoe: It is, it is. And I think it's everywhere because the industry is addicted to asset based revenue. And I'll tell you why. We all know why. [13:14] Chad: Right? [13:15] Josh Itzoe: Because when assets double, our fees double and we basically do the same amount of work and you know, I. [13:21] Chad: You take on more liability. [13:23] Josh Itzoe: Josh, most advisors as fiduciaries are 320 or 321 advisor. I mean that, that was. We had about 25 when back in the old days we had about 25% of our clients were 338. We had 75% that were 321. And the reality is you're not taking on any liability. I mean, read your advisory contract, right? Ultimately the discretion where the buck stops is with the plan sponsor. And argue you're taking on more liability as a 338. But I would just say that investment selection and monitoring is the most commoditized service that any advisor provides. Heck, you could go to Wilshire or Morningstar or Mesereau and get an institutional 338 for 2, 3, 4 basis points. Like it's commoditized, have it, you know, an IPS that, that you actually can track. I don't know, like I'm actually not that big of a drinker and I was hammered by the end of the show. I went back and watched the recording and the last 10 minutes I was a disaster. [14:28] Chad: You got quite read. [14:29] JD: It was awesome mission. [14:32] Mark: Does anyone. [14:35] Josh Itzoe: Here's where I would say, I'm talking about you finish my thought. Here's where I would say asset based fees. And this is something I think advisors should be pushing more on. I mean we went to fixed advisory fees with a 3 to 4% kicker for most of our, our clients. That was built into the contract. So when I would go to record keepers, you know, probably 85 to 90% of our clients were, you know, per participant fees, no asset based revenue. And you know, I was saying, look, we're not at, you know, we're not trying to take basis points and say that you can't. Like we had moved to a fixed fee structure as well. I would say the next level that most advisors don't go to is they don't do an allocation analysis. And so, you know, one of the things that I had built, I just built, you know, a spreadsheet. And what I would do is I would get the census data, I basically would get, you know, you know, Participant 1 through Participant whatever and I would get the assets that they had in the plan and then I would model out. What, Sorry, what you're trying not to [15:39] Mark: say acronyms, aren't you? [15:40] Josh Itzoe: I'm trying. I would model out. [15:42] JD: Speak freely. [15:43] Josh Itzoe: What percentage of participants would benefit from an asset based allocation versus a per capita allocation. So if they had a plan, that was a new if. And, and what I would say is advisors should be negotiating fixed record keeper fees, but then determining whether or not to allocate them as per capita. And I would look. And so if you had a plan that was, you know, really high, you know, a high average balance, there was some type of break even, it might be at 25 or 20 or $30,000 was the break even that when you move to a per capita fee, that that was the break even where it was better to be per capita legend pro rata. And the flip side, maybe you have a plan that is in the service industry with a lot of low balance participants. You know, maybe it makes sense. I had two, I had two Fidelity plans that I brought on in the same quarter. They were two of my first plans. They had grown, both grown to about 60 or $65 million. They were both with Fidelity we negotiated effectively the same per participant fee for both. It was slightly different with one, but it was very close. But one plan, had they been doing a lot of hiring, so they had more participants, they were putting more zero balances into the plan. And it would have been a disadvantage to do a per capita fee to like 70% of the participants. The other one was an engineering firm that had a lot of high balance employees. And for them, you know, it only would have been disadvantaged Disadvantage to like 20% of the participants to be in a per capita fee. And, and 80% would have been impacted by asset based fees. And so that's how we did the analysis to determine this is what the allocation should look like. [17:48] JD: I think those are solid points and I think it's cool to get your perspective on the large market. This can get a little more complicated in micro market and the small market, but I think it's important to our audience. And so first takeaway from what Josh just said, if you're an advisor, I think you can take some of his points and bring those to your prospects and talk about the fact that hey, maybe asset based fees don't make a lot of logical sense and you could bring something different to the table. And I think that's something that you should look at and study a little more. But now let's go to the micro market and talk about flat fees versus asset based fees because. And make an argument for asset based fees. A lot of these record keepers may charge 50, 75 basis points, whatever it is, and they're not making any money early on. They're literally in a deficit. And it's not until they get to year five or year six that they're starting to turn a profit. And then in year seven and year eight and you're nine, in a sense they need to make more than would be a normal profit to make up for all that they invested on the front side. And so I think that's why asset bases tend to almost benefit the plan sponsor in the small micro market. But then people stick their nose in and start bitching about it. And I don't think they're looking at the whole picture. Chad, you look like you. [19:09] Chad: It was something I was going to bring up and I completely agree. And there had been comments in the chat bar about why the micro market providers that are, that are winning share in that space. Space aren't doing a flat rate fee. And it's because of that reason. They know that people won't buy it if they're coming out and saying, hey, our actual required revenue to be profitable on your startup 15 person plan is six grand. People aren't, they're not going to set up a plan with that group. They're going to go down the street and they're going to find someone that's going to do it for 50 basis points or 1% because it doesn't equate to anything at that point. And my thought, and my thought that I wanted to make to Shannon's point is that is going to continue to be a problem until everybody follows suit and says we all have to be profitable in every aspect of our business. And therefore if we're writing a startup plan with no current assets and shit, sorry guys, but we got to charge six grand in order to be profitable in that space because we're not going to subsidize the $10 million plan. And my question back to you, Josh, and this would be interesting because I know you're a numbers guy, metrics wise. At what point, at what asset level? Call it an average participant account balance of 30 grand. So a good plan size, at what asset level does a record keeper become profitable on the work that they're delivering to that plan? I would, if I were to take a shot in the dark, I would say it probably requires 3 million assets before a record keeper is profitable. On a service model. On an, on a bundled service model. [20:49] JD: Okay, [20:52] Josh Itzoe: I have some different perspectives. I understand the points that you guys are making. I think part of the failure of us as an industry is why do they give the small plan away, the space away? I think it's because they want basis points, they want to expand their base [21:12] Chad: and they know relationships. [21:14] Josh Itzoe: They want relationships because there's ancillary, especially in the wellness game these days. Right. They advisors are crazy if they don't think that every one of the big record keepers is not out. [21:26] JD: Yeah, but Josh, but Josh, but Josh, they were doing this, they were doing this long before the participant data game. So. [21:33] Josh Itzoe: Absolutely. But what I would say is shame on us as an industry that we don't position ourselves more as professionals. Would an accountant work on an asset based fee? Would an attorney work on an asset based fee? Like we are a professional service, we should start acting like we're a professional service. I think the problem in the small marks and what the record keepers are hoping, and I don't want to knock, you know, I think you see a lot more and it's changing, but still probably not. The specialist retirement community is still a pretty small community relative to all the financial advisors in the industry. I think that you still have a lot of two planned Tonys in that micro market. And what these record keepers know is, yeah, we'll lose money for five years, but then when the plan gets to 3 million bucks and we're charging 75 basis points, nobody's going to be the wiser. They're not going to come in. And then that's where you get into trouble. These startup plans, especially the ones that grow fast and then they become 7 or 8 million dollars and it's 75 basis points and nobody's been, you know, everybody's. [22:45] JD: You would hope that, yeah, you would hope that you could look from point of conception to that current date and look at the revenue over that entire scope and then kind of annualize it and see where it fits. [22:58] Chad: But to your point, Josh, that's, that's why they don't, that's the reason they don't reprice or the reason they start making more money at some point when people aren't reevaluating the cost structure is because they weren't making money the first three or five years. If they were making money early on, then they wouldn't have been overpriced. They would have been able to come in and say, okay, here's what we need to execute this plan. It's six grand. Yeah. And we're gonna be six grand. [23:23] JD: And I think there's some. Sorry, I think, I think there's, I think there's some truth to that, Chad. But I think there's also truth in what Josh is saying where it kind of gets out of whack and no one's really looking at it. They're just taking the revenue. The real answer is somewhere in the middle. But I'll tell you a bigger dirty secret is, and this is a fact, is because they're running businesses, these record keepers. And by the way, I shouldn't pick on the record keeper. It's really anyone that's got an asset based fee, right, the small is being subsidized by the medium and the large. So you probably have a higher fee for your larger clients because you have to deal with the fact that you're not making revenue from your smaller clients. So it's an off balance deal there. [24:05] Josh Itzoe: The private wealth side is like that. I mean, you know, [24:11] Chad: let me make a quick point that I think people can digest and use in their practice because Alice made a comment in the chat bar that the government is helping subsidize startup plans right now with the credit, right. And the credit that's climbed in recent years. And my comment back in a chat bar was yeah, but nobody's charging these clients fees. Like even, even as a third party administrator. Our cost to most of these startups isn't enough to claim the whole credit for them. 50% of their billable not to exceed 5k. Most of the time they don't have a 10k billable in order to write off 5k on these startup plans. So I think those who are willing to make an impact in the startup market and want to do something right for their client, talk to record keepers that are willing to go flat fee, that are willing to invoice the client and help your client understand what type of tax credit they can accrue they can get and make sure they understand the benefits of that because people will pay the cost if it's represented to them accurately. But the problem is no record keepers want to bill fees. So they get a third party administrator cost of $2,200 a year and they get a very tiny tax credit for a 30 person startup. [25:21] JD: It's a complicated, it's a complicated problem. [25:24] Josh Itzoe: Let's talk about the tax piece a little bit. Another angle to that. You know, in most small market micro plans, right, it's usually the owners of the business have the lion's share of the assets. Is that fair in most cases? [25:40] Chad: Fair? [25:40] JD: 100%. Yeah, totally. [25:42] Josh Itzoe: So you should be talking to your clients and again do analysis. Back in the day, years ago I did this for a client, but I basically did an analysis of what their after tax wealth would be by paying asset based fees or paying, not asset based, paying fees out of the plan where they had, you know, they were top heavy, they had, I don't know, 70, 80% of the assets and you're compounding fees on your future wealth versus deducted on your taxes and then you're basically, you're not compounding the cost of your future savings. [26:26] JD: You said, you said pay out of the plan. You said pay out the plan. You Mean, pay it as a business expense. [26:31] Josh Itzoe: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [26:34] JD: Interesting. Yeah, very interesting. That could make a lot of sense. [26:37] Josh Itzoe: You want to do some cool stuff for your clients, for your ones that are small or top heavy like that, do that type of analysis. And now you start to talk. Now you're starting to talk. You know, it's not the, the. It's a different conversation. At the end of the day, what advisors need to be doing is we need to be advancing. You know, we need to. Clients want our insights. Like, that's the thing that, you know, I hate to say it, but like, the record keeping is important, but a lot of it is a commodity. What clients want and need and where you differentiate as an advisor is when you start to sell on insights that you support with process. So often we want to like, sell on process. Like storytelling in this space is so much. It's so important being able to, you know, I'm a big curator of information. Like, I think that's a superpower for advisors in the future. Like curate information, you know, in your newsletter or in your committee meetings and then put your own spin on it. Look at a. You know, read. Pick four articles from, you know, Plan Advisor or Plan Sponsor, read them, come up with your own opinion, and then summarize that in your newsletter. That's going to be way better than the boiler junk we send out. [27:51] JD: Bro. Bro, you nailed it. You nailed it there, Josh. I want people to tune in so they can come up with new creative ideas by. By listening to thoughts from our guests. Like this. And that concept of looking at what it. What impact it might make to pay your cost for your plan as a business expense versus having it be, you know, from the plan is huge. And Mark, I mean, who's doing that in the micro and small space? I would, I would already. Almost nobody. And that could. That can move mountains. That could win plans. That could win business. I'm looking for Mark's opinion because just Mark, you're a representative of the people. You always hate it when I say this to you. You represent the regular Joe. [28:33] Mark: Thanks. [28:34] Chad: Because he was HR for. Damn it. [28:36] JD: So many years. [28:43] Josh Itzoe: Human resources, baby. [28:45] JD: Drink it up. [28:45] Josh Itzoe: Human resources. [28:47] JD: Don't you think that the rank and file people. You probably hit that call first off? [28:52] Mark: Yeah. Come on, dude, really? Rank and file? I got two words for you on that. [28:59] Josh Itzoe: Q. Okay, done. [29:03] JD: Is Mark on vacation this week or is it just me and Chad? I'm confused. All right, let's. That was good, Josh. I really appreciate you sharing some of those thoughts. I mean, that Like I felt like if I'm an advisor at home, I could have jotted down three or four pretty good notes. Let's spin the wheel of ice. I don't, I don't have a spirit off ice, but I got a White Claw. [29:23] Chad: Do you need a drink? [29:24] Josh Itzoe: High Noon away from the White Claw to the high moon. [29:27] Chad: The high moon. [29:29] JD: That's. [29:29] Mark: Yeah. Jd, you should drink those because those are high class. [29:34] Josh Itzoe: Those class in the four seasons. Jd, you drink White Claw at Best Westerns. [29:41] Chad: Oh, you would. Do you have to drive your son back to the campsite after this? [29:46] JD: Okay, all right, here's the deal. I've got kettle, I've got a White Claw, and I don't have any of this stuff. I'm in a western. So just pour, pour some kettle in the white cloth. [30:00] Chad: Pound the white cloth. Same time Z. Hey, Josh, that high. That High Noon is a vodka based drink though, right? It's not a malted salter. Okay, [30:12] JD: well, I make my version of this nasty thing. [30:15] Mark: Josh, you're basically making a High Noon right now. That's really all it is. [30:20] JD: I don't even know what that is, but okay, I like that. [30:24] Mark: Have you missed the last five minutes? [30:26] JD: He wasn't involved in the last five minutes. [30:28] Mark: Okay. [30:31] JD: Idso. [30:32] Josh Itzoe: Yes. [30:33] JD: You co founded a firm. You brought it to great heights. You were a very successful advisor, retirement plan advisor. We've all learned, you know, your ways, the ins and outs of all this stuff. You succeeded. You've recently gone out on your own to do bigger things, which we'll talk about later. Cliche question, but something I think is really valuable to everyone. Tuning in. Give us two, three, maybe four the tips. Things big, big ideas that you think are most important to a beginner, an intermediate, you know, plan advisor, you know, someone that's kind of making their way. They're first starting out, they've had a little bit of success. What is the top 2, 3, 4 from IHTSO, the guy who wrote two books? I'll be gone for a little bit doing this. Take it away. [31:27] Josh Itzoe: So, you know, I think the first thing is as an advisor, I think you have to lead courageously. I think too many advisors just, you know, they're more focused on keeping the business than challenging their clients. To really make, you know, when you're in a position of leadership, when you run a company, when you're responsible for managing people right, you need to be courageous in your leadership. If you're a parent, you know, there are things that I make my kids do that they don't want to do. But in the long run, I know it's going to be good for them. I mean, I could, you know, if I asked my kids if they wanted to brush their teeth, they'd say no, you know, my young guys. But guess what? I make them brush their teeth so they have good hygiene and hopefully a nice smile, and they get a date to the problem. They're going to thank me later. I think too many advisors are. We are scared of clients and get bullied around by clients. We make a recommendation, the client pushes back, and then we go, okay, and we kind of check the box and move on. And, you know, I think you don't be afraid of your clients, you know, far more than your clients do, even if you're early on. I mean, most. Most plan sponsors don't know what they don't know. And I think the best advisors are the ones that push them to do the things. I think you've heard me say it before. You know, they. They make. They push them to take the narrow road. Not the wide road. The wide road is comfortable and, you know, the ride's pretty smooth, but the narrow road, you know, it's a little bit rougher, but it's going to take you to the places you want to see. And I think you get a lot of street cred with your clients and a lot of trust when you're willing to stand up to them and, you know, things that you think should be done, like, just don't give up if they say no. You know, you wouldn't say when a prospect says no, you know, do you just turn around and walk away or are you persistent? I think you should do that. So I would say lead courageously. I think the best advisors do that. Number one. That makes sense. [33:24] JD: I love it. Be a little more. Be more fucking confident, more aggressive more. Don't back down instead of walking in and being like, oh, whatever you say. You guys, everyone lives in this fear of, like, letting the client be right all the time. And it's okay to say, hey, no, you got this one wrong, and it needs to be done this way. [33:47] Chad: My first week on the job. Second, no. First week, we did what. What JD used to call 401k academy. And it was advisor and CPA education. And we traveled around and it was fantastic. Oh, dang it, Josh. The first session I heard JD do, keep in mind, I was. I was hired not knowing a Damn thing about 401ks. First session I heard JD do was pick a fight with someone that's Sitting at the table with you. And his whole point was like, don't [34:17] Josh Itzoe: get, like, Fight Club for. It's like, Fight Club 401ks. [34:21] Chad: Yeah. He's like, don't back down. If you think you know and you believe you're right, then don't back down and let the client be wrong. I'm not telling you to go out of your way to find the fight, but you need to stand up for what you know is right and don't give in. And I walked away from that going, all right, this. This is going to be fun. This is going to be fun. [34:39] JD: Greg talked about. [34:40] Josh Itzoe: Greg asked in the chat, have I ever fired a client? Yeah, I've actually fired several clients. I gotta say, they were. Some of the, you know, firing employees were hands down, the worst days of my career. Firing clients was some of that phase. It was like, there's a power that. It's funny when you fire a client. And then, like, it's like the power dynamic has changed. And they're like, well, what? I don't want you to. Firing clients. You know, I would say, you know, you should be pruning. Life is too short. You need 50 clients to have an amazing career. Life is too short to work with people that are going to suck the life out of you. Find clients that give you life, not take it away from you. [35:26] Mark: Chad, I'm putting in my notice. [35:29] Chad: I love that quote of the night right there. See you, Mark. [35:32] Mark: Sucked the life right out of me. [35:33] Josh Itzoe: You're killing me. You're chilling. [35:35] Mark: I love. [35:35] JD: I love. By the way, one of the reasons why I love Mr. Itzo is on his podcast. He talks over his guests all the fucking time. And when I'm listening, I'm like, yeah. But I'm psyched because I love hearing his thoughts. So it's like. So he definitely. He probably beats me in the talking category. Chad, when you made that point about picking a fight, I also want to let the audience know one of the main reasons behind that was kind of as a takeaway note here for y', all, is they think that a lot of people come in are salespeople, right? That you're trying to sell them something. And so if you're willing to challenge them on something, then they realize that you're not a yes person, right? You're not there just to kind of agree and tell them what they want to hear. Therefore, that decision maker becomes more comfortable with you because they're like, oh, this is a straight shooter. They're willing to risk losing this win. This client by challenging me on something. And so it can really benefit you again if it's done in the right circumstances. All right, so give us one more big, big takeaway tip. And then I want to talk about 401k disruptors with you a little bit. [36:42] Chad: Yeah. [36:43] Josh Itzoe: All right. I'm going to quickly give you three. I won't go. [36:46] JD: Jesus Christ. [36:48] Josh Itzoe: So I would say the number two is the most important thing you can do as an advisor is simplify the complex. You know, we sit around and we talk about acronyms and we talk about basis points. Basis points. [37:00] Chad: You're good. That works. [37:01] Josh Itzoe: That works. And we talk about, you know, acronym after acronym, and we talk way over. You know, we make it way too complex. And the thing is, like, committee members, [37:15] JD: trustees, like, they want to get in [37:18] Josh Itzoe: and they want to get out. So distill the information down. You know, explain complex topics simply. I would say the number three, like, if there's riches and niches, like, I think that's the next gen, is finding out, instead of trying to be a 401k advisor to all, to everyone. Like, I would look at your current client base, if you have one, and who are the clients that you get the most joy out of, that you do the best work for that are, you know, are most willing to take your advice. And I would build a niche around two or three of those and build case studies. I found that some selling on case studies, what we've done for clients over time is super effective because it shows. It shows that you've actually done the work. [38:11] Mark: Yeah, but can you not call it a case study? Because that sounds lame. [38:18] Josh Itzoe: Outcomes we've achieved for other clients like [38:20] Mark: you is that that's much better. Wow. [38:22] Chad: On the spot. This guy must write books. All right. [38:25] Josh Itzoe: And then the last thing I would say, and this kind of speaks for itself, is be impatient with your actions and be patient with your results. Everybody's trying to sell this elixir of it's easy to win plans. It ain't easy. It takes time. But if you're impatient with your actions and you're patient with the results, you can build a phenomenal career in 5, 6, 7 years. You can build an amazing career for yourself, and you can do great work that impacts the lives of people that you're going to influence, but that you may never meet. And I don't think there's a higher calling than that. So [39:09] Chad: very good. Very good. [39:11] JD: Do you think Frederic should be mad if I was using his name in the chat bar and writing bullshit stuff no, he's my boy. He's my boy. Let's see. Disruptors. We've skimmed the surface of this subject on a few shows, but it continues to be more and more relevant. And so having an I.D. so brain here, I think it's an opportunity for us to uncover some new golden nuggets for advisors in this area. So first of all, what am I calling a disruptor? This is like, you know, a company that basically is coming from the outside. This is my definition. They're coming from outside our industry. [39:48] Mark: Well, hold on, hold on, J.D. [39:49] Chad: hold on. [39:51] Mark: I just disrupted you [39:54] JD: from outsider industry and looking to bring something new that they think is fixing a broken industry, right? So, you know, think the uber fricking type of model, right? They're coming in to fix our broken space. And today I don't think is the day to argue whether or not they are fixing the space or not fixing the space. But I just wanted to define who those companies are. I'll give you names, guideline, Human Interest, which was formerly Captain 401. I always like to see what their former name was is because I think it was so fucking stupid. So I like to bring it up all the time. They tried to change. I keep. [40:29] Chad: Weren't they online 401k before they became captain 401k? [40:34] JD: No. And you've made that mistake before. The online 401k is. Is now ubiquity. Ubiquity. [40:40] Chad: Ubiquity. [40:42] JD: Betterment. Some people put best well in this group as well. I think vessels kind of got a different twinge to it, which we can talk about a little bit. They're a little bit misunderstood. I feel like almost an orange to apples here in this case. But we can talk about a little bit. Why do we care? Why is it important? Hundreds of hundreds of millions of dollars in venture capital. I was about to use the initialism and private equity is going to these firms in several different. Whatever these Silicon Valley types call series. I'm in a series a. I got $100 million in my series A funding group, whatever the fuck that shit means. But so they're getting all this. All this money I would save north [41:26] Josh Itzoe: of a billion dollars. [41:27] Mark: Why are you saying it like that? [41:30] JD: North of a billion dollars is hitting these companies. Therefore it has to be important to you as an advisor or as someone in this industry. You need to know why is all this money going there? What is their intentions? What are they trying to accomplish? And so I'll take it to you, Josh. Are you. Are you a fan of these types of companies or do they give you some concern or you're probably going to tell me you're somewhere in between. But where do you plant your flag here? [42:08] Josh Itzoe: So you know, I would say that I plant my flag with the companies that support advisors. [42:20] JD: And the reason being there's very few of those. Very few of those. Yeah. [42:23] Josh Itzoe: You know the view that I, you know, like Veswell is obviously very pro advisor. I think in game for Veswell is different. I suspect, I don't know for sure but I think they're trying to like I think they're trying to play chess instead of checkers. I think those other firms are trying to play checkers. So you know the problem when there's not, you know, when you have a small plan, like maybe it's okay to be bundled like you know, with a, you know, with a human interest or with a guideline. I think the game plan why this money is going in there is the private wealth rollover opportunity. If you look, there was a Fred Barstein just, just wrote about this. I think maybe GRP did this or intellisense did the study and it was like. [43:21] JD: Global retirement partners is the correct term on this show. [43:25] Josh Itzoe: Josh, that's so whack. [43:29] JD: Josh, whack is an 80s term. You just aged yourself going back. [43:35] Josh Itzoe: I'm bringing the old school back. I think that like a guideline. So IntelliSense had put out a study where they estimated and you know, whether these numbers are right on or not. Doubt they're right on. But like the estimates retirement is worth like $15 a participant per month. [43:56] Mark: Chat bar counts. [43:57] Chad: JD yeah, he did it earlier as well. [44:02] JD: Okay, drink again. [44:05] Josh Itzoe: Health Benefits is like 16 bucks a month. Private Wealth Wealth Management is 250 bucks a month. And they were making the case that, you know, so about, you know, about three grand, a little over three grand a year, something like that Round throughout. [44:23] JD: Josh. Josh. And so I think guideline and human [44:26] Josh Itzoe: interest are all going to get into the individual like they want to get. They want to own the participants in a wealth model because that's where they're really going to make their money. They're not going to make their money on eight bucks a month in record. [44:41] JD: Josh, I love. [44:42] Chad: Put on the foil hat. [44:44] JD: I Josh, I fucking love you. You have a sixth sense for knowing. Like my follow up question, you hit it so you when these people who run these companies are on podcasts, they talk a lot about the coverage gap. They talk a lot about the small companies that can never afford retirement plans and how they want to help them and I'm somehow led to believe that that's where they're going to make all their revenue. But then I love to hear you because I'm thinking there's no way venture capital and private equity are going to give them hundreds of millions of dollars to provide low cost 401k services to small businesses. So you do believe this is a wealth management. This is a participant data play. Well, can I ask you this then? What about the. When you live in Silicon Valley and this is not me, so I'm just guessing here at this stuff. If you look at the founders. I do, I do. If you look at the founders of these companies, they all come from non 401k businesses where they built something and then they were acquired, they sold it and they, that's where they made big, they made their money. I kind of haven't paid attention to this. Am I being naive? Is, is guideline, is, is, is human interest looking to build their company to a certain point where Empower or Voya or whomever is going to come to them and say, oh, we'll give you a billion dollars for your company. Absolutely. Wow. [46:14] Josh Itzoe: What's their exit going to be? Are they going to go public doing record keeping fees at eight bucks a month per participant? Now it's totally an acquisition. If you look at, you know, I have a tremendous, like and I was I before I like, I don't know the inside story but I feel like I have a better sense of what Vestwell's really trying to do. Early on I was kind of struggling to see it but I mean I have a ton of respect for Aaron. Like the dude has built a juggernaut. He's brought in a ton of money and smartly he has got venture money from a lot of the financial services companies. The record keepers. Right. What better to have investors in your business who ultimately are going to compete against one another. [47:08] JD: Yeah, right. [47:09] Josh Itzoe: To buy your business like it's genius. And I really think Vestwell is different because I think ultimately what they want to do is they don't, they don't want to be, I think human interest and guideline. Like they want to be like Dell or hp. [47:26] JD: Yes. [47:27] Josh Itzoe: I think Vestwell wants to be. Right. They want to be. I think what they really want in game is they want the, to be kind of the record keeping chassis like a modern record keeping system that they, then I could be wrong, but I [47:42] JD: know you're 100% right. [47:44] Josh Itzoe: You're 100% right and they license it where, you know, all these antiquated systems now use their hundred percent. So I get. That's my sense. But all these firms, they're looking for exits. Bottom line. [47:59] JD: Gosh, Just so you know, Aaron's always been very clear about that. When he first told Chad and I about that, sitting on a little circular table. What Chad, like five years ago, four, [48:10] Chad: six years ago, [48:13] JD: Chad and I kind of looked at each other like, what is he talking about? We didn't even understand his business model because it was so foreign to our industry. But that's why I said that he is an orange among apples, you know, bestsellers. I definitely believe that that's a different model. So let's focus more on the apples that I kind of discussed right now. Let's focus on the guidelines. Let's Focus on the Captain 401 Change your name is something, right? I forget. Let's call him Captain 401 for now. [48:42] Josh Itzoe: They turned into human interests. [48:44] JD: They did. I was kidding. That was a bad joke. Didn't land. They are human interest. I'm with you. And I never. I'm so fucking naive. I never realized that they simply want to gather as much business as they can, get to a certain point and then sell off to someone and they run back to Silicon Valley and say, look, we did it. We did it. We made a bunch of money again. So I would say, if you're. And Chad will let you speak. [49:08] Chad: But if you're in everything around me, Queen, get the money. [49:13] JD: Chad. Chad. Let me finish my thoughts, because this show's about advisor. If you're an advisor out there, I might have said, hey, it might be cool for you to partner with some of these companies because they're different, they're new, and maybe they're sexy and exciting to your prospects because you can talk about being a disruptor now. I'm thinking that might be the worst move you can make. Because if their whole goal is just to get acquired when you're selling your clients on something that's not even real. Sorry, go ahead, Jen. [49:47] Chad: Well, I'm not going to argue your point there. I do think that some of the acquisitions that have happened have improved the product that's being offered here recently. I think the mass acquisition coming over, that was an improvement for the people that were sitting on the old Aviator chassis coming across. So I don't think that's a bad thing. But going back to the original, that's not Mark. Actually, it's not, but it's a good try. It's a good try. Go ahead and find. Go ahead and find what? That. What? [50:18] Mark: It's not just. No, no, no, it's, it's. It was the Massachusetts Mutual. [50:24] Chad: No, that was a shortening of the name. That was not. [50:27] Mark: Isn't that an abbreviation that just like grp. [50:30] Josh Itzoe: Drink up, dude. [50:31] Chad: No, [50:33] JD: that was perfect. My. [50:36] Chad: The point that I would make, JD is that, yes, when you think about this business logically, if we know, and we all believe that the next step is this convergence of wealth into the 401k space, why would you think these, these disruptors that are willing to do it, as Josh saying, for $8 participant per year, are going to make an impact in the 401k other than being acquired by the folks who want to monetize the participant who want to create revenue from those relationships, those access points. That is the only viable outcome for what they're launching and what they're doing. They're never going to be a record keeping company that makes money for the next 20 years. It won't exist. So it has to be an acquisition play. [51:21] Josh Itzoe: Yeah, well, and that's because maybe the founders would love to build something long term, but when you take VC money. [51:29] JD: But don't you don't name one of those founders. [51:31] Chad: But what, Josh, none of them want to build. No, they don't. [51:34] Josh Itzoe: I'm saying that in an optimistic way. I mean, at the end of the [51:37] JD: day, [51:40] Mark: what venture capitalist? Josh, come on now. [51:45] JD: There is, I want to be clear. There is not one of those founders that is in this to build a great 401 gal. Just. I feel like an asshole. They say it on podcasts. They do, but they are clearly these Silicon Valley people. That's why the only posts they make are like, look at the hundred million dollars we got in Series 3 funding. It's like their whole life is about not building businesses. It's not about like employing people and building businesses and doing a better good. Their whole life is about what is their business valued at and what are they going to be acquiring. [52:20] Chad: It's roi. [52:21] JD: Sorry if I sound like a look at Betterment, I think that shit's stupid. [52:28] Josh Itzoe: Look at Betterment, you know, Betterment for the. And you know, they've gotten that. You think about all the robos, right, that were out there. What do you have left? Like Betterment and Wealthfront. Maybe like everybody else has gotten acquired, but Betterment, you know, as of a couple of years ago, their average cost of acquisition was something like $1,000. So to get a new client, they had to spend $1,000 interesting. The average annualized fee for their customers, 80 bucks for 90 bucks. It was like a 10 or 11 payback period. And that's the thing where you know, when you have VC money, it's unlike the rest of us, right? Profit is oxygen. Profit [53:24] JD: is oxygen. [53:25] Josh Itzoe: And when your oxygen is supplied by a separate source, you can afford to spend other people's money, you can afford to run unprofitable for as long as you want to kind of get scale. So I don't think any of these, the other thing for founders, they want to sell and then they want that on their resume. Like, hey, I sold a second book business, this is what it's for to go back for the next startup. [53:50] JD: That's kind of my point is they are serial, kind of like Silicon Valley types of business owners, which is different from, and I'm boring, I'm a took over a company from my father kind of guy, right? I'm like, how do I grow this organically? Like I don't want your fucking 50 million, your 100 million, your 300 million. Like that's just not where my headspace is that. And so when they and I, and I went on a rant last week, but when they saw, I'll calm down. But when they come into our industry and they try to do it and we try to put them up like, oh, look at these, they're bringing, they're disruptors, they're bringing new stuff to this. I say, I put on the tinfoil hat and I say to you out there listening, don't be fooled by their bullshit. They're here to fucking make money and that's all they're here to do. But you as the industry, the actual 401k pros who have been doing this for the last fucking few decades, you actually care about making a better difference in what's going on and improving the product, improving the service, making the outcomes better. And I don't care if you're an advisor or a record keeper, the conglomerate of a record keeper or a third party administrator, we're all doing good. So I say fuck these guys and their from Silicon Valley. Because it's, it's a bunch of, that's what I say. Let's pretty sleazy [55:15] Chad: bridging the coverage gap one terrible plan at a time. That should be the new slogan. [55:21] Mark: You guys are just such negative energy, man. [55:24] Josh Itzoe: I actually think the VC money, darn [55:27] Chad: it, [55:31] Josh Itzoe: And the tech, the, the upgrade in tech, I actually think it's great. I think it's creating, you know, the bar is having to rise. But don't just think about human interest or, you know, or these firms. Like, we're all crazy in the advisory space if we don't think that, empower that Fidelity that, you know, I sat in a meeting, a committee meeting with Vanguard with my largest client, who had been with Fidelity for like, we worked with them for maybe like five or six years, but they'd been a Fidelity client for 50 or 50, 20 years. And they brought one of their big wig execs who came in, and literally he sat in there and he said, you know, we're going to do to the advisory industry what we did to the mutual fund industry. We're going to get advice down to 15 basis points. [56:20] JD: It's like, oh, my gosh. [56:22] Josh Itzoe: Like, and. But I do think that. I think that. I think every one of these record keepers, like, they're playing the long game. They may be friendly with us and whatnot, but they're frenemies and there is no doubt. And I think a lot of. I actually think a lot of private wealth rias who have, you know, just grown up on kind of. [56:47] JD: Wait, wait, wait. [56:49] Mark: Registered investment advisor. [56:52] JD: Oh, but who've grown up on [56:56] Josh Itzoe: rollovers. I think those are actually. I think those are going to dry up in the future. I think a lot of private wealth rias are going to get blindsided. [57:08] Mark: The gift that keeps on giving. [57:10] Chad: This is how it happened last show, too. He said he watched the last 10 minutes of our last episode with him. [57:15] Josh Itzoe: I got it under control. Yeah, you don't drink. [57:20] JD: Hey, Mark, for the. For the record. For the record, I thought. I don't know why. In my drunk brain, I thought he said, I'm gonna drink for this ipa. Not. All right. I up. Oh, checks me on the R. I know, I know. Registered investment advisor. What is. What is the beer version of the three letter word? I said Stanford. I forget. [57:40] Chad: Imperial pale ale. [57:42] JD: Wow. I never got that. [57:44] Josh Itzoe: India pale ale. No, Indian, I think. Isn't it [57:49] JD: India? Yeah. All right, let's vote for chapter. [57:53] Mark: It's not shocking that. Didn't know that. By the way, Chad, Imperial is like, when it's a double or higher, I believe. And Greg can confirm that's what he's sipping on. [58:05] JD: Why does everyone say hi to John Sullivan in the chat bar? Like, who gives a about John Sullivan? Okay. [58:11] Chad: Pretty cool dude. Jd he just got to give him a chance. [58:15] JD: Josh. Yeah, Brandon. Can we. For the close of the show, can we play your recent fantastic video you played with all the movies? Okay, Josh, Vote for chapter champion. What's. What do you say, bro? Who's your vote? It don't take as long as you know. [58:36] Josh Itzoe: I gotta go with. [58:37] Chad: I gotta go with Greg. [58:37] JD: Explain something. [58:38] Josh Itzoe: I think he's been gg. [58:40] JD: Okay. Oh, okay. [58:43] Chad: Greg is. Greg is always a beast. [58:46] JD: All right, Chad. Vote for Chad. [58:48] Chad: Bar. Tonight was a tough one. There was some. There was some good thrown out there. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go with Brad. Brad's early. Brad's early additions to the. To. The content was solid. Brad, you were quiet late, but good, solid early showing your front nine was fantastic. Back nine was terrible. [59:13] JD: Wow. Nice, nice golf reference, Mark. Chopper champion. [59:22] Mark: I was really enjoying three pieces stuff tonight, I must say. But I'm going to give a slight advantage and my vote goes to Heidi. [59:36] JD: God damn it, Mark. Heidi's my vote as well. Because I asked Josh a question. He stuttered, he stammered, he tried to milk for time with and. Oh, and she called him out on it. You know how much I love. You know how much I love. Yeah. You know how much I love anger and vitriol, which is why if everyone is out there knows if I rip on John Sullivan, it's only because he's one of my best buddies and I love little direct messages with him. Just such a good guy. I love John Sullivan. All right, vote for the winner. People [1:00:12] Chad: hate when I can't vote. [1:00:13] JD: Yeah. [1:00:14] Mark: Not cool, man. There's only four people here. [1:00:18] Josh Itzoe: So, I mean, where did Hailey blow me up? I'm going back here. [1:00:23] Chad: Where? Where? [1:00:23] Josh Itzoe: Where'd she blow me up? [1:00:26] Chad: Good luck going back. There's 370 chats so far. [1:00:33] JD: She said something like, oh, oh. [1:00:39] Mark: I laughed at. I. I laugh at the timing of her joke of when Josh said, playing chess, not checkers, and she said, I like Uno. I thought that was funny. [1:00:55] Chad: The winner. [1:00:57] JD: The winner is Greg. He's a goat. He's done it before. He's in those top. I guess he can't be a. There can't be a bunch of goats, right? Like, there's only one goat. [1:01:06] Mark: Well, that's. That's, that's three. That's three. [1:01:09] Chad: Shady. [1:01:12] JD: That is. Time out. [1:01:14] Mark: Time out. We had assigned the winner, so that ends the game, right? So I'll give you a pass on that. [1:01:22] JD: Oh, okay. [1:01:24] Chad: No, get him hammered. All right. [1:01:26] JD: That's. That's after the song plays out. Okay. All right, Josh, thank you so much for being our guest today. We're gonna go to the after show. You can stick around if you want. You don't have. [1:01:40] Chad: I want some new blood on. On Josh's new venture. You teased it earlier, jd, but we didn't get there. [1:01:46] JD: I know. That's what we're gonna do next. My phone's not working properly. You guys can't see me. [1:01:53] Chad: Nope, nope. You go. What are you doing? [1:01:58] JD: Shit. There we go. Am I back? [1:02:01] Chad: Okay, you're back. [1:02:02] JD: My phone is losing it, Josh. Sorry. Thank you, bro. Thanks for coming back. Thanks for sharing your ideas. Thanks for spending time with us. Thanks for dealing with all our stupid little drinking stuff. We really appreciate it. In the after show, I'm with Chad. I'd like to hear about what you got going on with fee metrics, some of the stuff you're doing with 401 Jake. So if everyone else can stick around, we'll do that in the after show. And for you out there. I'm sorry, did I ignore you? Thank you for tuning in and hanging out with us and watching us. Whether it's on YouTube or Vimeo or LinkedIn or wherever, we appreciate it. We're going to play out a little closer, which I'm hoping is just John Sullivan little fantastic. And then we'll go to the after show. [1:02:49] Mark: And by the way, by the way, shame on us. Shame on all. And yeah, Josh, you're included here. Four of us for not acknowledging Justin at all. Like, not even having him say a word. Shame on us. That's all. [1:03:04] Chad: No, that was perfect. That was the way it should. [1:03:06] Mark: No, it wasn't, dude. [1:03:09] JD: No, he called. He called me last week and asked if he could skip the show. I told him he was, but he was on. [1:03:15] Mark: You don't see his face like he was on. [1:03:18] JD: I saw him. That's a half ass effort. Fuck him. I'm in a goddamn hotel that I paid for to get WI fi on the show while I'm on fucking vacation and he's at Lake Havasu getting hammered. Him. [1:03:29] Chad: JD, you're on vacation 365 days a year though, so we expect you to be here constantly. [1:03:36] JD: Let's play the video every. Fantastic. [1:03:39] Chad: That's fantastic. [1:03:40] Josh Itzoe: Wow, that's fantastic. That's fantastic. That's fantastic. Oh, that's fantastic. That's fantastic. It's fantastic. Wow, that's fantastic. That's fantastic. [1:03:53] Chad: That's fantastic. It's fantastic. [1:03:55] JD: Oh, that's fantastic. [1:03:57] Josh Itzoe: That's fantastic. [1:03:59] Chad: That's fantastic. [1:04:00] JD: I think that's fantastic. [1:04:01] Josh Itzoe: Well, that's fantastic. [1:04:03] JD: That's fantastic. That's fantastic. [1:04:05] Josh Itzoe: That's fantastic. [1:04:06] JD: That's fantastic. Oh, that's fantastic. [1:04:10] Josh Itzoe: Yeah, that's fantastic oh that's fantastic that's fantastic that's fantastic that's fantastic. [1:04:23] JD: Sullivan says I'm walking into the ocean I think that's a writer thing of some significance that he should have said [1:04:31] Chad: I'm walking back into the corn right now since it's the Iowa baseball game today [1:04:40] JD: we love Sully we love Sully we his colleague he can pick whoever he wants to put on his covers he gives a nobody nobody reads that [1:04:51] Mark: thing anyways [1:04:54] Chad: who list John Sullivan [1:04:57] JD: oh [1:04:58] Josh Itzoe: that's good [1:05:00] JD: bro I'm a little worried about getting from here to my car to be honest with you so we'll see I'm gonna go pee like usual that's what happens when you're 50 years old and you get to the end of a 60 minute show and Mark's [1:05:14] Chad: gone and Josh and I'll hang out [1:05:17] JD: yeah play a song while I pee and then we'll ask I ain't got [1:05:22] Chad: the blues no more I say all [1:05:25] JD: right Josh step some.