PPP Abuse & Fiduciary Risk: COVID-Era Plan Decisions

[0:01] Justin: There's. [0:03] Mark: Say hi. Hi. Can you say Tom? Say Tom. Say Justin. Okay. Say jd. Say Tom. And Jason. Oh, who's that? Oh, Chad. [0:30] Chad: Oh, Chad. Hey, Malky, buddy. [0:34] Mark: Brandon. You say Brandon. There you go. [0:37] JD: Nice. [0:42] Justin: Awesome. [0:43] Mark: Say bye. [0:44] Justin: Bye. [0:45] Mark: All right. [0:45] Chad: Hey, buddy. [0:46] Justin: Bye, buddy. [0:47] JD: Mark, I think you'd be a lot better if you kept him on your lap, okay? [0:51] Mark: Say bye, [0:53] Chad: Joe Bell. I'm drinking Joe Bell diamante for my. [0:56] JD: Why does. Why does Daddy wear a dirty robe? [1:02] Mark: He loves it. [1:02] Chad: It's so snuggly. [1:03] Mark: It just smells funny. [1:06] Justin: All right, buddy, go see mommy. It's a bright light. [1:13] JD: Okay. What are we, seven minutes out? [1:18] Chad: Nice, Suzanne. [1:20] JD: What'd Suzanne say? [1:26] Justin: What? [1:28] Speaker E: She also says she's done several COVID 19 death distributions. Have you guys know if we've done any or many? [1:33] JD: Very few. Oh, death debt. Sorry. Death distributions? Not that I'm aware of, but I haven't asked that question. [1:42] Speaker F: I know one, I believe. [1:44] Speaker G: Really? [1:46] Speaker F: I think so. At least someone died recently. We did a distribution. [1:50] Chad: The timing of Suzanne's chats there weren't great, as it went. Laugh out loud. And then she's talking about being from New Jersey, which is why she's doing death distributions. [2:00] JD: Yeah. Well, yeah, you definitely look at New York, New Jersey. That whole area over there is. Holy cow. [2:07] Chad: Justin was telling me New Jersey is opening public parks. Isn't that you? [2:12] Justin: I know. [2:13] Chad: They are surprising. See a lot more. [2:18] Speaker F: They're through their peak, though, right? They've blasted through it. [2:22] Justin: I don't know. Maybe. Maybe? Do we even know? [2:25] Chad: California was supposed to be, though, Brandon. Our peak was supposed to be the 14th. Originally, it was projected as the 28th, and then they readjusted to the 4th of April, but we. [2:33] Speaker F: We flattened. So ours is gonna be longer. The better we do, the farther out it's going to be. I got. But I got a friend in New Jersey and his whole family has it. I mean, they're not hospitalized, but they all got it now. We're sick as dogs. [2:51] Justin: Yeah. [2:53] JD: Nevin Adams wants to get it. He shouts herd immunity. All right, Nevin, go ahead. Run out there and start kissing people. [3:04] Chad: Got a fly in here that just gonna run into my face the whole show? Apparently. [3:07] Justin: That is amazing. Get. Get a pair of chopsticks. [3:13] Chad: Yeah, you guys would like that. The whole show, I'm just quiet because I'm trying to catch a fly. [3:17] Justin: You just got to do that. [3:18] Speaker E: You don't need chopsticks. [3:19] Chad: Pretty stuff. It's pretty tough to keep me quiet that long. [3:23] Mark: Be way cooler if you did this to flew by and you ate it. [3:26] Chad: I'll give it a shot, Mark. Just, just wait. Mid show. When it comes back around. [3:31] JD: I ate a cockroach once. [3:33] Chad: That doesn't surprise me. [3:34] Justin: On purpose? [3:36] JD: Yeah. [3:36] Speaker G: I used to own a surf shop [3:39] JD: and I was trying to impress the 12 year old surfer kids. They thought it was really cool. [3:45] Mark: So I think that's pretty. [3:47] Speaker E: I don't buy it. [3:50] Mark: I'm surprised you're alive. [3:53] Chad: If you think about this, JD was probably what, like 31 or 32 at the time and you were trying to impress 12 year old surf kids. [4:00] JD: I was like 30. Yeah, probably. [4:02] Mark: Were you trying to lure them into your van? What were you doing? [4:06] JD: No, we were in. We were in my van. [4:08] Justin: We were already in. [4:10] Mark: This has gotten bad real quick. [4:11] Chad: And if you have seen pictures of JD back in that day, [4:16] JD: he's like, oh my gosh, what has my dad gotten into? [4:20] Speaker F: Hey, can you give me a heads up on the word jd? [4:24] JD: Yeah. [4:25] Chad: Did you commit to one? [4:26] Speaker G: Let's go, let's go. [4:28] JD: Sponsor. [4:30] Justin: Oh, really? [4:32] Chad: Sponsor with the ability to adjust mid show, right? [4:35] JD: Sure, sure. [4:36] Chad: He can flip it. [4:37] JD: Sure. I don't think he's gonna say lawsuit that much. That's weird. [4:42] Speaker E: Was it buddy last time? [4:45] JD: What's that? [4:45] Speaker E: Wasn't he the king last time we played this? [4:49] JD: Tom, are you good at it? [4:50] Speaker F: Yeah, very good. [4:52] Justin: Yeah. I just invented new words to get around the game. [4:55] Speaker E: That's right. [4:56] Chad: Yeah, that's what you should immediately create synonyms for the words right now. [5:01] Justin: That's right. So this is Everett. This is my 8 year old. [5:03] Chad: Say hi, Everett. [5:05] Mark: Hi, buddy. [5:08] JD: Sal Tripote was not good at the game on Tuesday and we had to just let him off the hook because I think he must have said it like 28 times or something. [5:18] Justin: Was this in Hawaii? Was this the last one? [5:21] Speaker G: No, this. We did him on Tuesday just like he wasn't he. [5:25] Justin: Yeah, yeah. [5:26] Speaker G: Hawaii was bad too. But on Tuesday on this zoom, he was horrible. [5:30] Justin: Oh my God. [5:31] Speaker G: So he was a great guest, but [5:33] Justin: Hawaii happened, but your recent Orlando one didn't happen. Right. [5:37] JD: We went there. [5:38] Chad: We went to Orlando. Oh, surprisingly none of us got sick. It was. They, they. We went into quarantine here in California. What, 48 hours after we got back from Orlando? Something like that. [5:50] Justin: So you made it. [5:51] Chad: We made it back. And none of us luckily, none of us got sick or luckily. [5:55] JD: I think we officially performed our show at the last 401k conference in the country. [6:01] Justin: Yeah. [6:02] JD: Which was sketchy, [6:05] Justin: the conference or your show? [6:08] Chad: Do you ever get swings on Your dad's punching bag over there. [6:11] Justin: Oh, yeah, he'll get some in, take [6:13] Chad: some aggression out on that bag. [6:16] Justin: Yep. He's got gloves. And this is our everything room. We've got the punching bag. We've got our tools. As you can see, we've got the train table, Legos. Right behind him is that tv. There's a TV on the wall, but there's a TV on the table. And he and I built an arcade box. So we've got it hooked up to computer and we built these really cool arcade boxes, and we play old school Simpsons and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. [6:47] Chad: Oh, wow, that's awesome. [6:52] Justin: And, oh, yeah, we also have an old school gamecube too, with, like, Mario Kart and Star Fox and, you know, the whole nine. Yeah, this is the place. This is the hangout. [7:04] Chad: That's sweet. Yeah. [7:07] Speaker G: Have you guys ever seen that? [7:08] JD: We probably don't have a lot of time. Shows gonna start in about a minute. Have you ever seen Tom's desk at work with. He's got like a million tchotchkes all behind him and around him like it's out of control. [7:21] Justin: I got a new office. Since the last time you saw it. Now I have even more room for that stuff. [7:26] JD: I was gonna say you had to bring all your stuff. Right. [7:29] Justin: So we just started keeping with that theme. The Saturn V rocket that's in my office. He and I just started on the space Lego space station. [7:37] JD: And also I just finished the. Very cool. [7:40] Speaker G: Yeah, Michael Webb's here, and he was [7:44] JD: in Orlando with us. And he. He made it home safely after being at Disney World with thousands of people. My family drugged me to Disney World for four freaking days. I thought I was gonna die for sure. [7:59] Chad: I think we all did, too. When we flew back knowing that you were going back to Disney World, we're like, oh, geez. JD's done. It's been fun. We've got a succession plan in place. Tristan's ready to run the show. [8:11] JD: All right. [8:13] Speaker G: Bc, are you think you're ready to rock? [8:16] Chad: I can handle it. [8:17] JD: Yeah, it's about that time, ain't it? [8:20] Speaker F: Yeah. I'm just back here doing my own thing. Give me a second. [8:24] JD: We can start whenever you want, man. [8:27] Speaker F: Yeah. [8:27] Mark: It's not like we told millions of people that we started. [8:29] JD: 430. Who cares? [8:33] Speaker F: That's just back here working. All right, I'll start it. This is the retire Hollis sheltering place. [8:47] Justin: Changing the retirement industry one shitty webinar at a time. [8:54] JD: Okay. [8:55] Chad: All right. [8:56] Speaker G: That is a. That's a New rendition. [8:58] JD: We've never seen that one, Tom. So it's a little creepy. It's a little. What do you guys. How do you guys feel about it? [9:03] Chad: Sounds like. It sounds like he's in a layer [9:05] Justin: is what it sounds like. [9:06] Chad: As described by Mr. Clark. [9:09] Justin: You know what? [9:10] JD: Go ahead, Tom. [9:11] Justin: One of my first jobs was working at a haunted house in New Jersey when I was a teenager. So it fits. You just didn't know that about me. [9:19] Speaker G: Fun fact. [9:21] Mark: I don't understand why you don't like living in a dark house. [9:26] Justin: That's right. That's right. [9:28] JD: Welcome everybody to another episode of Sheltering in place with the retireholics and Our [9:33] Speaker G: guest here, Mr. Arisa Attorney Tom Clark. [9:42] JD: We'll have to talk about that one day. [9:47] Speaker G: Thank you to all the people attending live. [9:50] JD: We really appreciate it. You must be some 401k. [9:54] Speaker G: Hungry animals, the lot of you. [9:57] JD: And so we appreciate you showing up on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 4:30. [10:02] Speaker G: We're getting lucky. [10:03] JD: We've got some good guests because if it was just us talking 401k, it definitely is a shitty webinar. [10:10] Chad: Well, we recorded one with just us and notice it's never been released. So yeah, if it's just us, it's shitty. [10:19] JD: We did, we did do episode five with no guests and it hit the cutting room floor. We're like, that's a piece of crap. [10:25] Mark: I'm not even sure we had any attendees. [10:29] Speaker E: Like four. [10:30] Speaker G: Well, yeah, and thanks to the attendees. [10:32] JD: Good point, Mark. [10:33] Speaker G: It's a lot less creepy when we [10:35] JD: do this with other people watching opposed to just ourselves. So we appreciate it. [10:39] Speaker G: But let's dive right in with Mr. Clark. [10:45] JD: I've been wanting to talk about this. If you're a Planet vi. Oh, shoot, let's. Sorry. [10:50] Chad: He was going to go there. [10:52] JD: Get so excited to talk 401k. [10:54] Speaker G: If you've got questions, if you've got [10:56] JD: questions for Tom, questions for anybody here, use that chat bar. Justin over there is checking it out. He's paying attention to you and watching it. We really appreciate your involvement and we will also. We're going to go back to the old school game, the prohibited word. And today the word will be sponsor. So if you say that word, you must drink from your special drink. Okay. And we've had Tom on the show before. He's kind of a veteran at this. He's really good at it. Last time. [11:27] Speaker G: Here we are in the midst of [11:29] JD: this coronavirus and a lot of plan advisors are out there working with their clients or they were in December and January and February. And they had maybe sat down, done a review of the plan and determined that it was time to move from record keeper X to record keeper Y for a variety of reasons. Maybe the switch was going to happen on March 20th or, you know, April 10th. I don't know what is the. [11:57] Speaker G: Or what is. [11:57] JD: What is your guys's opinion? Is that something that they can keep moving forward with and make that switch or is it because of this Covid they should not. And maybe I should say more specifically because of these like extremely volatile markets. Let's start with our guest, Tom. What's your opinion? [12:20] Justin: You know, it's one of those things, right? Really depends on why you're moving. If you're trying to get away from a really bad record keeper who's making a lot of mistakes and, and you just, you need to get to somebody who's doing better. I can see more of an argument if you're moving between two really sophisticated record keepers who are good at moving assets quickly. Right. You would only have those assets out of the playing field for a couple days, you know, maybe as opposed to some of the record keepers, you know, out there, take a heck of a lot longer. You guys would know that that's your sort of day job, those kinds of transitions, but not that I think ERISA requires it. I think you could do it. But for those risk averse folks out there, if you don't have to do it right now, until we really stabilize, I could see an argument for parking your plan right where it is, right. If somebody made that decision and they documented that and said we really think that the volatility scares us. What happens if the market goes up? Look, right today didn't it go up a bunch and now it's, you know, there. Did it go back down again today? [13:30] JD: Yeah. [13:31] Justin: An article that says April, best month in a long time because of how bad March was. Right. So if any given point in April you had decided to pull your plan into a blackout and that's the one day you missed where the Dow gained a thousand points, you know, you're going to have people calling you up and those squeaky wheels are going to be pissed off. So I can see why people would do it, but I don't think it's mandated. But I can see why people would be concerned. [13:56] Chad: Seems like the defense of saying we chose not to move because of the volatility is easier than the defense of saying we moved and we had this massive downturn and now all our employees are calling the Dol and voicing complaints. Well, it'd be like it's easier to [14:13] Justin: do, it would be downturned, but it would really be the opposite because if we pulled all our money out and then the market dropped further, everybody would be happy as a client. [14:20] JD: Right, right, right. [14:21] Justin: For sure. So it's the upswing that's crazy. [14:23] Chad: It's the, it's, it's when the money's out of the market. Yeah. [14:27] Justin: It's the climb that's the scary part. [14:28] JD: To me. We're always dealing with up and down days. To me it's the volatility, it's the amount that things are up and down that creates this new narrative because we always deal with that. [14:40] Speaker G: And you get clients that complain about [14:41] JD: that in a regular time when they go through a transfer and the market has a couple great days and they're like holy cap, what happened? We shouldn't have done this. At this time. You're like, well, you can' Predict that. [14:51] Speaker G: When I looked at Napa, their results, [14:56] JD: they had 44% of advisors that they pulled said that they were still on schedule to do these transfers. So it seems like the advisor community and or the clients they represent doesn't necessarily agree with the concept that you have to put it on ice or at least a good chunk of them. [15:13] Chad: Yeah. If done properly, you can liquidate and reinvest with most of the providers within a 48 hour time period. Most of them. And if you do it properly, you can, you can tag it even shorter than that. One of the things I thought about Tom, as we were chatting. What about in kind transfers? I mean, nothing that you've mentioned has anything to do with us being in Covid and notice releases and people not getting that. So as long as the assets aren't leaving the market and it's an in kind transfer, are you comfortable with that? Meaning the money is not ever being liquidated. [15:52] Justin: Do, do the record keepers even do in. I mean like I'm familiar with some in kind. Like if you got some weird shit in your brokerage account transferred out to IRAs, like I, I've been involved in some of those weird projects like somebody owns real estate or something like that and we got to find somebody to do it. But do any of the record keepers do in kind? [16:12] Chad: Absolutely. [16:14] Justin: Okay. Because some of them that may, you know, rhyme with melody. [16:20] Chad: You know, some of those folks, you [16:23] Justin: know, it's very interesting the way they custody those funds. Right. Because they have such large omnibus accounts that, you know, you don't, you own things but they trade them and, you know, it's like, can you really. Are they really willing to give that out of their omnibus accounts? I mean, that's kind of way beyond some of the stuff that I do on a day to day basis. But I mean, if you could get a record keeper to agree they were going to do an in kind. In kind. I mean, that's cool. [16:49] Chad: In some of the smaller plan space, they're using the same custodian. Like it might be a TD Ameritrade on the back end. [16:57] Justin: Sure. [16:57] Chad: Or Schwab on the back end. And so there's no real liquidation needed even in a mutual fund world. [17:03] Speaker G: Let me, let me shift gears a [17:05] JD: little bit on the same subject. But what about the participants? They're in the midst of these crazy times. Maybe you've furloughed part of your staff. They're busy watching Fox News and CNN and are stressed out. Could you make the argument that just given the current environment, I mean, stock market aside, that making a switch from one vendor to another vendor, I mean, the education, the ability to answer their questions, is it just not a good time to do it or is that just being too heartfelt? [17:37] Justin: You want to go to me or anyone? [17:38] Speaker G: Yeah, sure. Well, Mark and Justin tend to not [17:40] JD: answer my questions very often, so. Go ahead, Tom. [17:45] Justin: No, I mean, I think that's a fair. Like a lot of things in our world, we try to presuppose what people are going to be thinking and what environment they're in and where their heads are at. And no, I really do feel that's a very fair assessment. Again, it's not a mandated one, but if a plan sponsor said to me, you know, you're right, I just cut everybody to 50% furlough pay. Like the last thing in the world they need is a bunch of notices that were switched from X to Y because they're already pissed off at me. They're already scared, you know, they're already hurting. And now they think I'm going to try to steal their money or there's some weird thing going on. You just, you just don't need to stress people out. [18:22] JD: Can we talk about the opposite of the argument here? Just for all the attendees listening in? I mean, if you feel as though you should move forward or you're part of that 44% of those advisors I referred to, I think that one of your concerns is, and I'm stealing this from Nevin, but that you're kind of stating out loud now that you want to time this thing when markets are better, like you have some idea when markets are going to be less volatile or there's a better chance for that down day versus the up day. And maybe that's a bad message to put out there as a. As a fiduciary. And so you made these decisions. I'm just being going on the other side of the coin now. You made these decisions for reasons they obviously had to be prudent reasons and fiduciary sound. And maybe some of them are very, very important. I mean, you've decided to upheave this entire plan and move it. [19:10] Speaker G: So just because you're forced with this [19:13] JD: landscape, does that trump all of those reasons that you were moving? And I guess that's really what it comes down to, right? Which value is better? The previous decisions or the fear of the current volatility? Is that a fair assessment? [19:29] Justin: I mean, it is, but, you know, putting on the old Tom hat, right. I could sue you for anything, including being ugly. So, you know, watch it. [19:40] Chad: That's for you, Mark. [19:41] Mark: I know. He looked at me when he said it. [19:44] Justin: Easy money. That's right. I'm looking right at you. You know, it's so J.D. i mean, you're 100% right. You could easily come to the opposite conclusion. But all that being said, if the market goes up and somebody misses that gain, especially if they've got a more aggressive portfolio, that person is going to be knocking on your door. And I have been in those situations, even under the best of circumstances, where somebody loses something over 48 hours and, you know, and in the end, they're not. It doesn't make any sense to pay me to defend a claim when the Entire claim is $1,500. They're gonna pay me at my hourly rate. And the plan sponsors just write the check and I don't have anything else. So I'll just switch to the White Claw. Right. So I'll just [20:36] Chad: drink anybody's ever had on this show. [20:39] Justin: Yeah, there you go. So, [20:42] Speaker G: Justin, I'm seeing a lot of people. [20:44] Chad: I'm trying to find my tag. So one question, J.D. [20:50] Speaker E: what's that? [20:51] Chad: I was just saying they're not all questions. [20:52] Speaker G: No, they don't. They don't have to be questions. They don't have to be questions. [20:56] JD: They can be thoughts and opinions. I'm seeing a lot of people that are. Got some strong opinions about all this. [21:01] Chad: Something for Tom. [21:03] Speaker E: Lawsuits against plans and plan sponsors regarding excessive plan fees seem to be the norm right now. What do you think that. How do you think that'll change going in the future with all of this. [21:15] Justin: I think that some of the more aggressive plaintiffs firms have had some very successful settlements and that they are not going to be hurt by COVID 19. Their economics are quite independent of the rest of our world. And I think that, you know, Schlichter has a whole website, new website out there advertising for new plans. I don't know if you guys have seen that. [21:41] Speaker G: No, I want to, though. [21:43] Justin: Sweet. Yeah. So he's. [21:45] Chad: He. [21:45] Speaker G: Is it. Is it boogeyman.com? [21:47] Justin: no, not boogeyman.com, but, you know, he's out there advertising on LinkedIn. Right. So they've all gotten nice big fat checks and. And they're out there looking for employers, and they're not going away. And, you know, there's been some success. I don't know if there's, you know, some people are trying to link it to the intel decision at the Supreme Court on actual knowledge, but, I mean, that's nice somewhat for the plan, you know, the plaintiff's lawyers. But I just think it's opportunistic. I think a lot of old cases got resolved, and there's been a lot of money on the table, and they need to go look for some fresh prey. [22:26] Speaker G: Brandon, if you can hear me, I think we had a poll question on [22:31] JD: whether people thought it was okay to transfer assets or not transfer assets. Can we get a temperature on the audience? I feel like there's a lot of them that are feeling like they should. So throw that out there. [22:41] Speaker G: So chime in. [22:43] Chad: Audience vote this time? Yes. [22:45] JD: And is it okay to. [22:47] Speaker G: You can't vote? Chad, I want your opinion. [22:48] Chad: It allows me to. Before panelists couldn't vote. [22:51] Speaker F: Yeah, that was a mistake. [22:53] Mark: Sorry, Wait, which one was the mistake? [22:57] Speaker G: Yeah, it's what I thought. [22:58] Speaker F: Allowing panelists to vote. [23:00] Speaker G: Yeah, it's what I thought. [23:04] JD: 85% of them right now are saying, hey, man, you can't predict the ups. And I added the hey, man. But you can't predict the ups and downs of the market. So if you made a prudent decision to switch, then you follow through on it. [23:15] Chad: So I think. I think it's okay to say if you're in the discussions right now about moving the plan, that you should table it. But I think if the decision was made prior to all of this, that there was enough reason to transition and pick up and move the assets, but there was enough of a benefit for those participants that you should stick with it and see it through. [23:35] Speaker E: Yeah, she went through this a couple weeks ago, and they met with a plan sponsor, kind of gave them their options. It even says in her thing, no drink for her. [23:45] Justin: And I said it. [23:47] Chad: Met with the plan sponsors. [23:48] Speaker E: They connected with participants too, and God dang it, I suck at this. They had no pushback from the participants, so that's good to hear. [23:57] Speaker G: Oh, yeah, that's rule number. That's rule number one. Ask your participants what they think about [24:02] JD: what you should do. [24:03] Speaker G: I don't think that's a good idea, but fair enough. I get it. Let me go a little sliver off of it. [24:11] JD: What about making fund changes? The Large Cap Value Fund has fallen below its criteria, or what have you, and it's time to move to a different one based on your investment policy statement. You got to do that, right, Tom? [24:27] Justin: Yeah. I mean, if you have made a fiduciary decision that a fund is imprudent. Yeah. I mean, yes. That's a different story, though, than taking the entire plan offline. [24:38] JD: Agreed. [24:38] Justin: Right. It's far less exposure from a dollar and cents point of view. And let me just say to Todd Kading, it's not a sweater, buddy. It's a Columbia vest. It's. It's, you know, it's, you know, that material. What is it? Not flannel, but. Please, please. [24:57] Chad: Thank you. [24:57] Justin: Thank you. [24:58] Chad: It's the fleece. [24:58] Justin: The fleece pest. [24:59] Chad: JD's got a name for that outfit. [25:01] Justin: Yeah. [25:02] Mark: What's that? [25:03] Speaker G: Oh, that's the new. [25:04] JD: The New York shoot. I gotta look it up. There's a whole Instagram about it. [25:08] Chad: Oh, really? [25:09] Speaker G: Yeah, I'll send it to you. [25:10] Justin: I was going with the waffle shirt. I was going for a sexy lumberjack, [25:14] Chad: but that's another layer with the tools in the background. It makes perfect sense. [25:20] JD: You're so right, Chad. There's a name for that. I've forgotten it. And it's. It's hilarious. [25:25] Speaker F: Was it something tuxedo? [25:27] Speaker G: No, apparently that's like the go to [25:30] JD: business casual on the East Coast. You know, New York, Boston, all that. We wouldn't know anything about that out here in Cali. [25:37] Speaker G: Okay, so we all agree that fun changes. [25:39] JD: Everyone seems to be thumbs up on that. But when it comes to moving those plant assets, it seems to be a split crowd, at least here. But a lot of advisors out there, and our audience seems to think you might as well go through with it. [25:53] Speaker E: Something else that Devin's saying is, document, document, document. No matter what you guys do, Mike mentions, plants still need to be managed as they were before all this happened. So keep doing it. As a plan is written. [26:06] JD: That's a classic attorney and answer. Document, document, document. If I hear that kind of answer out of these guys anymore, I'm going to lose my shit. It's always document, document, document, word. [26:16] Justin: Next time. [26:17] Speaker G: What? [26:18] Justin: That could be your drinking word. Next time is document. [26:20] JD: Yes. [26:22] Mark: I don't think we ever say that. [26:23] Speaker G: We'd like to break it up with [26:24] JD: a little bit of fun, Thomas. So we're going to do a little move. Yeah, A movie game. [26:30] Mark: Movie move. [26:31] JD: Yeah. [26:31] Mark: Move your body. [26:33] Speaker G: It's called. [26:34] JD: What is it called, Mark? [26:36] Speaker G: Know who is that? We're just gonna play you an audio [26:40] JD: clip and you gotta guess. The movie. That's what we should call it. All right, go ahead, Brandon. Take a rip at it. [26:52] Speaker G: We can't hear you, Brandon. [26:53] Justin: Silence of the Lambs. No, just. [26:56] Mark: What's that movie Don't Talk at all in. [26:59] Speaker E: What's a movie? [27:00] Justin: What? [27:01] Chad: What's that? Yeah, that new one that you can't make a sound from the outside. [27:06] Mark: Yeah, that's it. [27:08] JD: Ms. Stoeger, my plastic surgeon doesn't want me doing any activity where balls fly at my nose. [27:14] Justin: Well, there goes your social life. [27:16] Chad: I know this one. [27:18] Mark: Yes. [27:20] Justin: Yeah, that's a good one. [27:21] Chad: All right, number. [27:23] Speaker G: Number two, [27:25] Chad: you're on dangerous ground here. [27:27] Mark: You're causing a major disturbance on my time. [27:30] JD: You know, I've been thinking about this, Mr. Hand. [27:34] Speaker G: If I'm here and you're here, doesn't [27:36] JD: that make it our time? [27:38] Chad: I know it. [27:39] Justin: I don't. [27:40] Mark: What? [27:41] JD: It's Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Wow. [27:46] Speaker G: I thought you were going to nail all these. [27:48] Mark: I was going to say Ferris Bueller. [27:50] JD: Oh, really? [27:51] Chad: I thought it was. All right, go ahead. [27:54] Speaker G: Oh, you were wrong. [27:55] JD: Okay. [27:55] Chad: Bill and Ted is what? [27:56] Justin: I thought it was only one aspect of Fast Times at Ridgemont High that Phoebe Cates. [28:03] Speaker G: No. [28:03] JD: All right. [28:04] Justin: Only one part of that that I know very well. [28:06] Speaker G: Go ahead with the third one, Brandon. Okay. [28:10] Speaker F: This is my personal favorite, so we're just gonna have to suffer through the length. [28:14] Speaker H: You like Huey Lewis in the News. Their early work was a little too new wave for my taste. But when Sports came out in 83, I think that really came into their own commercially and artistically. The whole album has a clear, crisp sound and a new sheen of consummate professionalism that really gives the songs a big boost. He's been compared to Elvis Costello, but I think Huey has a far more bitter, cynical sense of humor. In 87, Huey released this four, their most accomplished album. I think their undisputed masterpiece. Is Hip to Be Square, a song so catchy most people probably don't listen to the lyrics, but they should, because it's not just about the pleasures of the conformity and the importance of friends. It's also a personal statement about the band itself. [29:00] Speaker G: We're gonna watch the whole movie. [29:02] Justin: You don't know it. [29:02] Speaker G: Just do we have a guess. [29:04] Speaker E: Geez, everyone knows. [29:06] Mark: I have no idea. [29:08] Justin: Tom doesn't know. [29:09] Chad: Yes, yes. [29:12] JD: American Psycho. American Psycho. [29:14] Justin: Oh yeah, well that was in the chat, so that would have been cheating. [29:16] Speaker G: Well, I have to say my brother and I sat down and we thought, okay, what clips are we gonna do? [29:22] JD: And we both said to ourselves, I'll bet you Tom's going to know everything. [29:26] Speaker G: Everything. [29:27] Chad: We put down everything. [29:29] Speaker G: He seems like a pop culture smart kind of guy, but clearly we were wrong. [29:35] Justin: Yeah, you were wrong. [29:36] Speaker G: That's okay. [29:37] Chad: He's got to act human once in a while, jd. Every once in a while he's got to remind us that he's human. [29:43] Speaker G: Let's, let's talk. [29:44] Justin: Programming is limited. [29:48] Speaker G: Let's talk PPP and maybe PPP 2.0 in a way. [29:53] JD: I mean we talked a lot about PPP at the beginning of all this. This is that payroll protection program, you know, getting employers two and a half months of payroll. And that was a big subject for us out of the gates. We thought advisors should really help their clients or small business owners understand this whole process. Now Chad, brings to me ideas or concepts where people are starting to, I shouldn't say game the system, but maybe game the system. How do you all feel about an employer or a small business owner thinking to themselves, you know what, we haven't done a profit sharing in the past, but we have a discretionary one available or we've got this match down the line. Maybe we want to front load it now, but taking these next two months, which my understanding is they've got to use this money for either payroll or benefits type stuff which includes retirement plan contributions from the employer and using it for that purpose. I'm going to juice it up a little bit. I know this wasn't your original question. This is a lot sexier, Chad. [31:07] Speaker G: What about even a big juicy cross [31:11] JD: tested profit sharing contribution where that owner is going to get a large chunk of it and you're going to make it happen in, in April or May. [31:20] Speaker E: I feel about as good as it as the Lakers receiving that. You guys hear about that? [31:24] Speaker G: Good analogy. Yeah, great analogy. [31:28] JD: But is it legal? [31:30] Speaker F: Yeah. [31:32] Justin: Well what will actually, I mean [31:38] Chad: you [31:38] Justin: can get, you know, you're supposed to use the loans for certain things. You know, there's a couple of angles on this. The first angle is you shouldn't have lied on your application, right? And so if you kind of stretch the truth on how much money you needed and said, oh well, of course we do matching and you've never done matching, that's probably not a good spot to be in, right? So you should not have, you know, if you wanted to start matching and you somehow figured out how to turn it on on your plan first and then you filled out the PPP application and answered honestly to get the money. Sure, right. But I'm suspecting from your hypothetical that's not the facts. And so you've got a problem about lying on your application. The second is, and Minutian has been pretty clear on that, right? He was in a press conference last week or the very end of the week before where he was like, hey y', all, like understand we're auditing the applications, like right now we're getting the money out the door, but please understand we're coming back to square zero and we are going to look at your applications. And you know, I think he said, [32:50] JD: I think he said they were going to investigate ones that were over 2 million. But I could be wrong, but the [32:57] Justin: other side of it is it's really about loan forgiveness. And they don't really, they've not put out the guidance yet that I've seen on how those audits are going to go on deciding how you prove loan forgiveness. And so I think if somebody in good faith, like if somebody's got a situation where they got money for a match but they kind of collect the money on their books or maybe they do a big fat matching contribution at the end of the year on December 31st or something like that. That's just the way they've always done it then they in good faith now say, okay, how do I cover it for the COVID you know, how do I use this money for the covered period? Now I would rather see them find a way to amend the plan if their plan doesn't allow them to do it, to pre fund it, park it in, you know, a non allocated account or something like that, it's in the plan, you can't get it back out, right. I'd rather have that argument than oh yeah, we just park the money over in my business checking account and I promise we're going to use it later on for the 401k. Forgive my loan. That's, you know, we don't have any guidance, but that's probably less of a winner of an argument. [34:03] Speaker G: I want to go. [34:04] Chad: And that's, I want to go back [34:06] JD: to Chad's original, original question, but I think the only guidance we have is, is what 75% of it needs to be spent on those, those things that you calculated it for. [34:18] Justin: Question 7. The only guidance we have right now is question 7 of the FAQ, which is now up to like 31 questions or something as of yesterday, the latest edition. And all it said basically was, yeah, of course you can use the money. Well, the fact that it could use the money on retirement contributions is sort of an after the fact question. The main question they were asking is, does retirement contributions count against the $100,000 salary limit? The answer is no. And then they sort of backwards answered, backhandedly answered the question, well, of course this is covering retirement contributions to DC and DB plans. Well, okay, but you know, these people haven't figured it out. It's not that they're trying to be bad, the government, it's just that the SBA has no idea how complicated we've made our world this work. 700,000 different plan design things that you folks do. I mean, they're just ignorant. And so the guidance is going to come. Not yet. [35:13] JD: And before I let Chad explain his original question, I want to make it clear, like I applaud them for acting fast. Like I think that's what they need. I think that's what they needed to do. The last thing we want them to do is sit around and spend months and months trying to make sure there aren't any cracks in this thing. [35:29] Speaker G: But your, well, your original question was [35:31] JD: their payroll wasn't enough to cover it, right, Chad? Or something? [35:34] Chad: Well, no. So the original question, and Tom actually hit on it, that's how damn smart you are, is that they're looking, they're, they're CPAs are jumping in and saying, okay, what's the average monthly cost for payroll and benefits? And when they do that, they say, well, we're funding profit sharing at the end of every single year. So we're going to break that up over a 12 month period. And that's what we're going to submit our request for. But now the client has eight months, or, sorry, eight weeks to use that money. So the client's reaching out to us, saying, hey, I know we normally don't fund the profit sharing until the end of the year, but this was part of my PPP request, so I want to pre fund, I want to put 30k in now. And so that's what they're reaching out to ask. What's that? [36:17] Justin: Use the word. [36:18] Chad: I said client. I would love to. [36:22] Speaker G: I believe Tom. [36:24] Mark: I was gonna say. You're not gonna listen to Tom. [36:26] Chad: Of course I am. Yeah, that's kind of right in line [36:28] Speaker E: with the PCH was saying about the. That one client or law firm looking to pay their paralegals double the first eight weeks and nothing the second. [36:36] Speaker G: Oh, yeah, that's a, that's a nasty one. I don't know. [36:40] Chad: Let me finish the thought, Tom, because you mentioned it. That's what they're trying, they're not trying to be dirty in any way. This is part of it over a 12 month period. We just need to fund it now. So I'm saying, as the tpa, we need to be conscious of what you're doing because, and Suzanne mentioned this in the chat, there are accrual requirements, right? We may be pre funding these dollars if we put it in everybody's profit sharing account and a client leaves or a participant leaves before the year's done, that money may not actually be theirs. There may be an end of the year employment requirement. There may be vesting restrictions on it. So some of the risk attorneys I've seen are saying, we'll put it in a holding account then. Well, the record keepers are saying, we don't like that, we don't want you to do that. We're saying, well, that's the cleanest thing you can do right now. [37:26] Justin: For now, because we don't know the answer. It is. I mean, the cleanest thing would be to find a way to, you know, just, you know, if you can pay your money, like if you didn't get loan money that covers your rent or something, and that's a cat, find a way to put the money in an easy situation towards something that would allow it to be forgivable. Then you just, you know, move the money, right? And then just take the thing and you rent money, let's say, and put it over for your profit during the year. But I'm assuming, since I'm getting this question so much, smart people have already thought of those answers, right? And if they could do that, they would have done it. And now, you know, the first time I got this question, it was under the premise, oh, my client got too much money under the PPP loan program. And I was like, wait, come again? [38:13] Chad: What? [38:15] Justin: They got too much money? Well, then they need to give it back, not find a way to spend it. [38:22] Speaker G: Can I touch on that too. [38:23] JD: To Chad's question. Sorry, Tom, when we, when you file for that ppp, it's true that you give your whole year of those costs and then they calculate it into two and a half months. So the fact that you put in your profit sharing or your match or whatever at the end of the year is fine. But when it's calculated to determine that [38:43] Speaker G: loan, it's done on a two and [38:45] JD: a half, two and a half months proration. [38:49] Speaker G: And so for you to then fund it all right now that's not what [38:53] JD: they gave you that money for. They gave you the money to get through two and a half months of normal expenses. [38:58] Chad: Well, I haven't ran into that. I haven't had folks asking to pre fund everything they're saying, hey, based upon. Have you. [39:05] Justin: Oh, I've gotten the question to buy [39:08] Chad: low to get into the market I guess would be the thought for that. [39:12] Justin: You know, just in the sense of hey, we have this extra money, can I use it all right now to do profit sharing? [39:18] Chad: Right. [39:19] Justin: Because that's. [39:21] Mark: Sorry, that is frustrating and I'm not going to go to the. [39:25] Speaker G: Here comes Mark's rant. Here comes Mark's rant. [39:28] Chad: Yes, go. [39:29] Mark: When, when I hear that, that they got too much money, nothing bothers me more right now, especially knowing, I mean again, JD mentioned we're on 2.0 of the PPP because essentially what we're learning and peeling back this onion is the smaller guys out there. Smaller guys and gal business owners got shelved, right? The big companies that had people at desks and knew what to do, applied for these things, didn't really need it, but said hell, why not? They got it. It happened like that. They're talking about folks that have the white glove treatment at banks or getting. [40:04] Chad: Yeah, that was frustrating. [40:06] Mark: And then you get, you know, business owners who have no true banking relationship. Maybe they're new businesses, maybe they're just not ones that trust the banking system. I don't know. And they're the ones who need it. And you're telling me there's people out there that are like, ah, let's make it rain on extra guacamole on my burrito. Like that. That is. Nothing frustrates me more just hearing that. And I. All of our conversations about, oh, funding, profit sharing, whatever. Well, that'll get figured out just from the human aspect of all this. Shame on them. Shame on them. Shame on the system. I mean I'm come up with a priority system this time around. A, B and C A You need it. B, maybe you do. C, go yourself, get. Walk out the door. You don't need it. [40:54] Justin: Right. [40:54] Chad: Look at how much it's affected your bottom line. Right. If you can't show a 12% reduction in your income in February or March when this took over, then didn't you fall to a lower category? There's different ways, but like JD Said, you got to acknowledge the fact that they turn this around like that and we as an industry adapted to the CARES act as well. [41:14] Mark: I get it. [41:15] Chad: That's positive. Hugely positive. [41:17] Mark: Chad. Chad, you're a golfer golfing nerd like I am. What kind of sport is golf? Right? It's self regulated. It's the honor system. So those people did not honor that system. Okay. [41:29] Chad: And then they got called out and they gave the money back. [41:32] JD: Yeah, big ones. [41:34] Speaker E: The big ones brings up a good point. He says theoretically all businesses of any size would be part of paying back all the deficit. So therefore they should get the money if they can. [41:43] Justin: My 8 year old's paying it back. We're not paying it back, not in our lifetime. [41:48] Speaker G: Theoretically, all business managers will be part [41:51] JD: of paying back all the deficit. So therefore he's just saying, I think he's trying to say is they trying to keep the economy strong, you know, so stronger you can keep businesses, keep them in float. [42:01] Speaker G: But we love you. [42:02] JD: Paul Carlson FOUNDER OF Plan Design Consultants but what we're talking about here is clear. It's that unfortunately people try to game the system and so they get that money and now they're thinking, okay, what can I do that's to my advantage with this money and still meets the rules. And I'm just going to say to our audience of advisors, you know, don't be that guy. Don't be counseling them in that way. Teach them about why it was put in place, what is there for. And you know, unfortunately, if part of [42:31] Speaker G: that loan is not forgivable, as hard [42:34] JD: as it is to swallow, maybe the right thing to do, according to Mark and his soapbox, is to, is to pay a portion of it back. You know, you just. [42:42] Chad: Sorry, that's not something I've researched and I feel like I should know. If you don't use the full amount towards applicable expenses, then is only that part of the loan forgivable or does the whole loan become forgiven? [42:56] JD: Go ahead, Tom, go. Yeah, yeah. [42:59] Justin: I'm not that deep into it. [43:00] Speaker G: Okay. My. I don't know for. I don't know for sure. [43:04] JD: But my thought is if you don't use it for 75%. If you don't use 75% of it for those specific things, then you just got a nice loan that's at a, what was it, 1% interest rate. And I think you got to pay it back quick. [43:18] Chad: The whole amount, right? [43:20] JD: I think so, yeah. [43:21] Speaker G: But I don't know that. I don't know that for sure. [43:23] JD: So you can't quote me on that. [43:26] Justin: It makes sense it would be the whole thing because that they're incentivizing you to use. [43:32] JD: Well, Chad, just proposing that maybe you used a certain percent and they'll let that slide. But no, I think it's the whole darn thing. [43:38] Speaker G: And by the way, if you want [43:40] JD: to counsel your clients as advisors, that's [43:42] Speaker G: a great way to get involved because [43:45] JD: you don't want them to make big mistakes right now that are going to cost them here in the next few months and they're going to go through all this drama and find out that they got some fat loan they have to pay, pay back in a quick period of time. So [43:58] Justin: I'll say this, Mark, I'm with you on this. Grinding my. You know, we as a firm made a commitment that we wouldn't lay off or furlough even one of our employees. We have 60 employees nationwide in 10 offices. And you know, Marcia made that promise on day like one. And for those of us in senior management at the firm, like we've had to make sacrifices to keep that promise, right? Whether it's, you know, anything you could imagine a senior management does, all the way to working like all of us, 12, 15 hour days, seven days a week. So, you know, if the hours were, I don't know about you guys on your side. I was talking to JD earlier in the day and I think I know what the answer is. I mean, if we were all working crazy before, we're working crazier now. And so much of it seems to be twice as much work just to stay in the same place if we're lucky, right? Because just so much is crazy. So I'm with you, man. It does piss me off the idea that somebody is out there taking advantage when there's folks just trying to do the right thing to keep people employed and with dignity and food on their table. And you know, it is. And you know, you'd like to think there's a special place in hell for those people, but in all likelihood, I mean, there isn't. I mean, but at least we can tell ourselves there is somewhere, right? [45:23] Speaker G: And pch, I saw your question. [45:26] JD: I actually saw that thing on Twitter, the business owner that was gonna up the pay for his employees and then get rid of them once the window was out. That is exactly what Tom is talking about. There's a place in hell for that guy. We won't go into details on that one because it's black and white. That's just not how you treat the ppp. But I definitely saw that, that tweet. [45:46] Speaker G: Mark, we tasked you with another game, so we're gonna mix it up. [45:51] JD: After this heavy conversation, you're gonna have a little fun. What's your game called? I forget again. [45:57] Mark: It's still like, beta mode, but is it lame or are you game? That's. That's in. Tom, the idea here, it's yes, no. And I'm just letting you know right now, we're gonna go quickly. I've got three yes, no questions. And I'll repeat to the audience, for those of you who are not familiar, please chime in, give your input, and again, I'll be quick. And then at the end of this, I have a quick hypothetical for you guys. [46:22] Justin: So would you rather have your arm cut off or your foot? [46:26] Chad: Oh, God. [46:27] Mark: That's kind of the ending question. [46:29] Chad: Yeah, we play that with the kids at dinner time and it's fantastic. [46:34] Mark: All right, my first question to you guys is Instagram challenges. Is it game or is it Are you game or is it lame? [46:46] Chad: Oh, I can't vote. [46:48] Justin: What is an Instagram challenge? It's like, are you Tom? Are you. [46:51] Mark: Are you on Instagram? [46:52] Justin: I am, but obviously I'm not. [46:55] Mark: When quarantine first started, everyone's like, hey, push up challenge. And they tag like 10 people. And it was like, post a video of yourself doing 10 push ups. [47:03] Justin: Oh, fuck that. No, I don't do that. [47:05] Chad: Terrible. [47:07] Justin: All right. [47:08] Chad: Every time I get tagged on those things, [47:13] Speaker G: so far, everyone. [47:14] JD: Everyone's voting lame, Mark. But I know you're. [47:16] Speaker G: I know you're lying. I know you're lying. [47:18] JD: Pch, you love that shit. [47:19] Chad: How about those friends who get mad [47:21] JD: at you for not doing it? [47:22] Speaker E: You guys have a. Yeah, I got a few. [47:25] Chad: I will say, if it's a fundraiser or something, go for it. [47:28] Mark: Oh, shut up, dude. [47:29] Chad: Ice bucket challenge. I agree, but outside of that, no, I'm not posting Nice guy route. [47:35] Mark: Stick to your guns. [47:36] Chad: Would you randomly post the 10th picture in your inbox? Yeah. No. [47:40] Mark: Second question. When you send a text. When you send a text to somebody. [47:46] Chad: Hold on. [47:46] Speaker E: PCH says we're way behind. [47:48] Chad: It's all about tick tock now. [47:49] Justin: Yeah. [47:49] Mark: All right. [47:50] Justin: Yeah, my wife's all over tick tock now. [47:52] Chad: Geez. [47:53] Mark: Come on. [47:55] JD: Hey, Retireholics has a TikTok and I'm not lying. [47:58] Chad: No, I don't. Anyways, go ahead, Mark. [48:02] Speaker G: Go, Mark. [48:03] Mark: Go number two. If you send somebody a text and then they just do the double click reaction like, ha, ha ha, thumbs up, whatever, instead of responding, is that lame or you game? Game. [48:17] Justin: Perfect. [48:18] Speaker F: I'm good with it. [48:19] Justin: Perfect. [48:20] Mark: Oh, I freaking hate it. [48:22] Chad: I'm totally. [48:24] JD: I'm totally of it. [48:25] Chad: So yeah, that's a response. [48:27] Speaker E: That bias for one particular reason, Mark. [48:30] Speaker G: Hey, man, when you got. When you got 57 emails in your inbox, you got to get through those fucking text messages quickly. [48:37] Speaker F: So I'm why I got an iPhone. [48:43] Chad: Now we know why I switched. That's a good point, Nevin. [48:47] Speaker E: Depends on who it is. [48:49] Mark: There was one person we all used to know that abused that a little too much, so I'll move on. Responding to an email with a gif or a gif lame. [49:02] Justin: Or email or a text email. [49:07] Speaker F: I've never got that in my life. I would love to get a GIF in my email. [49:11] Speaker G: In your email. [49:13] Mark: I can only do it from my phone, but many times when somebody sends [49:17] Justin: me an email and I want to. [49:18] Mark: To say something, I toy with that idea a lot. [49:21] Speaker G: I've gotten them GIF or something like, sure, any gift. Let me state for the record, I [49:30] JD: love gifts in LinkedIn and like direct messages, I use it habitually. I love them with text messages. I use them all the time. I abuse it all the time. But in an email, I've never done that in my life, so I'm going to say lame to that one in the email. [49:46] Justin: Okay. [49:46] Chad: But I love gifts and I'm going to. I'll tell a real brief, quick story of JD because I tried it a couple of nights ago and it backfired on me. But when JD gets the random request on LinkedIn by a marketing professional that asks if you use video for your marketing, like, did you pay any attention? He sends gifts back. Or he starts sending random emojis. I tried that the other night with someone requesting me on Instagram and it turned into, clearly, this is either a bot or a female trying to get my Social Security number because it quickly spiraled very fast and my wife was just sitting there laughing. It doesn't work for me the same way it does for you. JD and his son did this at an airport in Hawaii and had an advisor falling out of his chair laughing. We'll just say because of the inappropriate responses that were sent back to this. [50:42] Speaker G: That was a little different. That was an advisor reaching out on LinkedIn. I was at the airport, had a couple of beers in me and I handed it to my 15 year old son and said, just chat it up with this guy. And he had some fun and it [50:54] Chad: was nothing but emojis and hilariousness the entire time. [50:58] Speaker G: Mark, great questions. Keep going. [51:01] Mark: My last one, hypothetical, guys. Okay. In the spirit of. And I know Chad's as excited as I am today, we got notified that golf courses are now opening with social distancing rules. And we're gonna start being able to go out and potentially enjoy a round of golf. Tom, I don't know if you ever get out and play, but I have a. This is around golf. Just. [51:24] JD: Mark, can I just say first. Coincidentally, the same day they closed down the beaches, but go on. [51:30] Mark: Yeah, I know. Because sharks are attacking people different on your golf course. You're not gonna get attacked by shark. So if you had a 10 foot downhill left to right breaking putt that you had to make right now with no practice for $10 million or go to jail for a year, like high penitentiary, the slammer man, bad. 10 million or go to jail, would you take the putt? [52:02] Speaker G: That's such a dark. [52:05] Speaker E: That was either. [52:06] Chad: Or. [52:07] Mark: If you don't take the putt, you're gonna get hit in the face by Mike Tyson in his prime. [52:12] JD: Oh, oh, okay. [52:13] Speaker E: Yeah, but hold on. You get the 10 million when you [52:15] Chad: get out of jail or no. [52:17] Mark: Yeah, you know, if you make it, you go. If you make, you get $10 million or you know what, any amount of money you want. I don't care if it's $100 million or go to jail for a year. [52:27] Speaker G: Okay, but if you miss the pot, [52:29] JD: you get punched by Mike Tyson. [52:30] Mark: But if you decide, you know what, I'm not going to risk it. I don't want to go to jail. I've got too much life to live. You turn around and you close your eyes and Mike Tyson's right there and he punches you in the face for [52:41] Speaker G: no specific reason and no specific lifestyle choices. I am deadly afraid of jail. And I would take the Mike Tyson punch because I'm going to miss that damn putt. [52:52] JD: But yeah, I would take the punch, Chad. [52:57] Chad: I'm taking the pot. [52:59] Mark: Good for you. [53:01] Justin: My sister was a nurse in a maximum security prison for almost five years. I would do just about anything to stay out of prison. Mike Tyson, you have, I've heard firsthand what actual prison Is like, nope, no, and nope. [53:22] Mark: Okay, Justin, I'm taking it. [53:24] Chad: Taking the putt or taking the punch putt? [53:28] Speaker G: Yeah, you're going for it, Mark. Young and dumb. Yeah, Mark, what about you? [53:37] Mark: You know what they say. [53:41] Chad: No, we don't, Mark. What do they say? [53:43] Speaker G: What do they say? [53:45] Mark: What's that? [53:46] Justin: That's it. [53:47] Chad: That's it. [53:47] Mark: Oh, that's all. That's all. [53:51] Speaker G: That's beautiful. [53:55] Chad: Oh, yeah. [53:56] Speaker E: This thing's going nuts. [53:58] Speaker G: All right, I'm gonna throw a couple [54:01] JD: last minute questions at you that I got at Tom, and they're quick ones that I got from people on the Internet here. Who is your spirit animal? Tom Clark, or what is. [54:19] Justin: Oh, my God. Forrest Gump. [54:23] Speaker G: Forrest Gump is your spirit animal. I like that. [54:27] Mark: That is such a good answer. [54:28] Speaker G: Not really an animal, but a great answer. Yeah, I like that. [54:33] Justin: I have modeled my parenting on Forrest Gump's level of fear and responsibility over his son at the end of that movie. You know, and, you know, stupid is. Stupid does. [54:47] Speaker G: I don't think you could slight or [54:48] JD: question any of Forrest Gump's decisions in life, and he's a great example. That's solid. [54:55] Justin: One of my favorite scenes in that old movie is when Lieutenant. When he's recounting the story about Lieutenant Dan, calls him a dumb son of a bitch because he gives Bubba's mom half the money. Right? [55:04] Speaker G: Yeah. [55:05] Justin: I mean, that's the way to live. Yes. [55:07] Chad: Yeah. Agreed. [55:09] Justin: Try to achieve that level of fairness. I'll never agree, but I certainly will try. [55:14] Speaker G: What is your secret superpower? [55:18] JD: While these people are really into your personality here? [55:23] Justin: Secret superpower. [55:25] JD: You could translate to that. Like, what are you really good at? That you travel hacks? Oh, yeah. [55:34] Speaker G: I'm just assuming that you can't fly [55:36] JD: or shoot laser beams out of your eyes. But. So I don't. [55:39] Justin: Not to my knowledge. You know, I don't. I don't know. I don't know that I have one. [55:47] Chad: I like to think what your answer might be. Forrest Gump was not on my radar, but I think reading minds is something that you would. Would be a good superpower for you. [55:58] Justin: I. About 99 times out of 100, I can tell when people are lying to me, but that's been. A lot of people can do that. [56:05] Speaker G: All right, well, see how you feel [56:06] JD: about what I say right now about you. I think your superpower. I think your superpower is the ability to stand up in front of a crowd and. Or one on one, and speak to people about very complicated things in a manner that your passion fucking exudes from you. [56:28] Chad: You. You. [56:29] Speaker G: You bring us into your world. [56:31] JD: You're so authentic. And you see very few people in your position that do that. And I've just always been a huge fan of you for that. [56:40] Speaker G: And I also like that that you [56:44] JD: throw in the cuss word once in a while. [56:47] Justin: I'm laughing at Nevin, all the things you said, and I scared the shit out of them. [56:54] JD: So anyways, I think that's your superpower. [56:57] Justin: I appreciate that. [56:58] Speaker G: I was lying. [56:59] JD: It's just for the show. [57:00] Chad: There you go. [57:01] JD: No, [57:04] Speaker G: how about a serious question? [57:07] JD: Do you think that plan. Is that the word? No, I got it. [57:12] Speaker G: Plan fiduciaries are going to get sued [57:16] JD: for post Covid stuff, like, you know, decisions that they're making right now in this kind of wild, wild west world. Are we gonna see litigation specifically to this time? [57:29] Justin: People have been sued for getting. For shitting green, you know, under these ERISA suits. I mean, yes, people will absolutely be sued. It all depends on what process they're going through. Right now. I've been pretty much on, and I know people are challenging me and people are disagreeing with me, but not on our poll yet. Yeah, I've been on record saying that to be a Tibetan monk. I have been on record saying that I think all plan sponsors should have some type of documented extra process during these crazy times. Something, anything, right? Any kind of analysis that looks to see whether, you know, there's anything they can do to improve their plans for the best interest of their participants. And if you can do that, then, you know, not only have you plugged a hole, let's say there's a leaky pipe somewhere, you fixed a problem, but even if you didn't, you just created extra process, which I can point to like a dozen cases, including even Tibble versus Edison, where one of the claims was, hey, you didn't consider a stable value. You know, you know what they. You know what kind of process they had. Some dude in his deposition said, oh, yeah, we talked about that six years ago. Didn't have meeting minutes, didn't have notes. Basically had no proof at all that they had ever talked about stable value. But he said it in his depot. And of course we didn't. This is at the time I was in Schlichter. We didn't have anything to challenge what he said. Cited by the damn judge in the trial opinion. Yeah, I mean, so, you know, and I can just go down the list. The old UTC case from 2008, I mean, I could go down the list. So having any kind of extra process during this time is like a shield and armor and sword. So that's my take. [59:13] JD: That's great advice and something we haven't heard. I imagine it was like a COVID 19 folder, you know, how about that, advisors? You're going out to your clients saying, hey, we need a special. A special documentation folder for just this period in time. [59:29] Speaker G: Our polls. [59:31] JD: 27% of everybody said, maybe a few, [59:34] Speaker G: but won't be a big deal. [59:35] JD: 37% said, oh, yeah, it's on like Donkey Kong. And zero. [59:41] Speaker G: What? [59:41] JD: Zero. Zero. Heard that Schlichter had stopped practicing law and become a Tibetan monk. Okay. I thought that seemed like a possible thing, but guess not. [59:52] Chad: It's. It's because you're the most active 401k monk in the industry. [59:57] Speaker G: JD Tom, can you do me or us a favor? [1:00:04] JD: I dare you to let Jerry Schlichter know that such a thing as retireholics exists. As if we knew. [1:00:11] Mark: Double Dog. [1:00:12] Justin: How dare you. [1:00:13] Chad: I like my job. [1:00:15] Justin: Hey, listen, I mean, he. Mark, you're wearing your robe. He's done his show. He's done 401k Fridays. True. [1:00:25] JD: True that. True that. [1:00:28] Speaker G: Mark, give your ads. [1:00:33] Mark: Up again. [1:00:33] Justin: But. Put that up again. [1:00:34] Mark: But. But since Suzanne's on, he's got sponsors. [1:00:39] Justin: Very nice. [1:00:41] Speaker G: Talk to Marcia. [1:00:42] JD: I think it's $50 per square inch or something. [1:00:46] Mark: That's for 10 years on now. So I can change my hat. He hasn't officially sponsored me, but I wear the hat every time for. He sends me a couple. [1:00:54] Speaker G: What? Jason. [1:00:56] JD: Yeah, buddy? [1:00:58] Chad: Ah, look at it. [1:00:59] JD: Wow. I didn't get a fucking hat. [1:01:03] Justin: I'll have to get a patch. I'll talk to my marketing guy, [1:01:07] Speaker G: Chad. [1:01:08] JD: Are you. [1:01:08] Justin: We're. [1:01:09] Speaker G: That is basically. If you're hanging out watching this show and you haven't watched it before, this [1:01:14] JD: is where we're basically at the end of the show. And so consider all attempts at quality and actual entertainment gone. We're just gonna wing it now for a little bit. [1:01:26] Chad: Dee Dee, there you are. As a monk, by the way, that's why Jerry Schlichter does not leave his practice. [1:01:34] JD: If Jerry met me on that mountain, I could teach him many things. [1:01:37] Justin: Many things. Here's the thing. You'd like Jerry. [1:01:41] Speaker G: Oh, I've never. [1:01:43] Chad: He's a nice guy. [1:01:44] JD: Oh, for sure. I disagree with some of his Gentleman. I disagree with some of his opinions, though. But some of the stuff he said on Rick Unser's podcast. I find my jaw hitting the floor in my Car as I'm driving. Like, did he just fucking say that? [1:02:01] Justin: Very skewed view of the world. I will agree with you on that. [1:02:05] Chad: Tainted. I think tainted is a fair way to say it. [1:02:08] Justin: Yeah. He is a consummate gentleman. There are a lot of lawyers out there, as you well know, that are genuinely not nice people. He's genuinely a nice person. [1:02:19] Chad: So forgive me, my comment may be out of character, though, but I feel like his view is tainted. What I've understood in reading and watching is that he believes that this industry is out to harm employees. And I don't believe it in my interactions with the average client that they're trying to do. It is in the best interest. And he's targeted some businesses and hurt some plans, helped some participants, made a lot of money in the process, but hurt some plans and some companies in those actions. [1:02:51] JD: I didn't bring Tom on here to talk shit on Schlichter, so we'll move on. [1:02:55] Speaker G: And that wasn't my intention. [1:02:56] Justin: I'm always happy to. [1:02:59] Speaker G: You're always happy to talk shit on Schlichter? [1:03:01] Justin: No, I'm always happy to address the topic because there's been nobody. There's literally been nobody like me, to my knowledge, who has gone from the plaintiff side to the defense side. There have been plenty of people who have gone from the defense side who have become plaintiffs attorneys. Not Schlichter, but some of the leading lawyers at the other competitor plaintiffs firms used to be at places like o' Melveny and Myers on the defense side. And they switched. To my knowledge. I'm the only person in America who went from the plaintiff side to the defense side. [1:03:31] JD: Interesting. [1:03:33] Justin: It certainly, you know, I have some unique perspective on the topic. [1:03:37] JD: Well, my biggest problem with Schlichter is his. What he quoted on 401k Fridays is his whack a mole vibe. Where, and I get it, where he's been litigating on fees and transparency and now the industry is bobbing and weaving and coming up with new ways to make revenue. And I understand that, and I think that that's not good. [1:03:59] Speaker G: But I'm a little concerned that he's [1:04:00] JD: so obsessed with vendors providing other supplemental services. [1:04:06] Justin: Yeah. [1:04:06] JD: Because to me, that's the new way. Like, that's the future of creating great models, great experiences for clients and for participants. [1:04:15] Speaker G: And so for him to put a kibosh on that is not good for anybody. [1:04:21] JD: And Anyway, I concur 100%. Fair enough. [1:04:24] Chad: Read completely. If I went to buy a new car and the car dealership told me, like, we'll never service your vehicle here. You can never bring it back back after this, you can only buy this vehicle, and we will have no relationship beyond that. I would be very disappointed. I think that we owe it to plan sponsors, to accounts. We owe it to clients. We owe it to participants. If we have the knowledge and the ability to bring them value, to bring those other services to them and try to help them. We live in a difference between selling and consulting. [1:04:56] JD: We live in a world of trying to make things easier and smoother and at our fingertips and quicker. And the way to do that is combine lots of those things. But let's move on. [1:05:08] Speaker G: Nevin's still on here. I believe he's down in his dark [1:05:11] JD: dungeon of a downstairs room or wherever he came at us last time. [1:05:15] Speaker G: And hey, it's just me. I know, I know, I know. He said, hey, I hear Tom has [1:05:26] JD: something awesome planned for NAPA 401k summit. [1:05:30] Speaker G: Do tell. [1:05:33] Justin: I have a couple of things awesome planned for 401k Napa summit. [1:05:37] Speaker G: Why don't you tell us about the [1:05:39] JD: most awesomest one of all of the awesome things? [1:05:44] Justin: I. Not only. So I have a TED Talk, right, A small TED talk on some, I think, some next level things advisors can do. But I think what maybe Nevin is talking about is I am moderating a panel. Well, I don't know if it's moderating, but the two of us, it's myself and the chairwoman of the American Century Committee that beat back the plaintiffs lawsuit from Nicholas Castor. And so she and I are doing a session at Napa in September. And if anyone was at Excel, you know that she was. It was one of the two women that was at the Excel conference. But we're really going to kind of. If you sat through that, this will be 2.0 of that earlier presentation. And I'm excited about it. [1:06:31] JD: That's probably what he's referring to. We don't get to see any of the stuff at Excel because we're stuck in that corner just drinking beer and booze all day so they don't let [1:06:40] Mark: us out of there. [1:06:42] Speaker G: Well, do you mind if Chad and [1:06:44] JD: I have got a little question that we would like to pick your brain on. We're thinking we're gonna hit up Fred Reich on Tuesday. He's our guest on Tuesday, which, coincidentally is Cinco de Mayo. He loves Dos Equis, so it's all coming together quite well. [1:07:05] Speaker G: We were gonna ask this of him [1:07:07] JD: because he lives here in California, but we wanted To. And again, this is just me and Chad talking here. His son has a new album coming out. Wait, wait, scratch. [1:07:18] Speaker G: Let's go back to this. [1:07:18] Chad: Yeah, let's go back to this. [1:07:20] Speaker G: Evan saying your son has a new album or. [1:07:22] JD: Who's he talking about? [1:07:23] Speaker G: Is he talking about you? [1:07:25] Justin: Not me. [1:07:26] JD: Oh, he's talking about Fred Reich. [1:07:28] Chad: Oh. [1:07:28] Justin: Oh, well, the picture of Fred with the mask on his face. [1:07:33] Speaker G: Okay, that's good information, Nevin. [1:07:35] JD: Thanks. We'll talk to him about that. For real? That's cool. [1:07:40] Speaker G: AB5 Gavin Newsom, California comes out and they call it the gig economy. You know, all your Uber drivers and food deliverers and all that kind of jazz. [1:07:53] JD: And he basically puts down this rule. It was finalized in September, September of last year. [1:08:02] Speaker G: So we're dealing with it live and [1:08:03] JD: in color in this world. [1:08:05] Speaker G: And it's basically forcing employers that were [1:08:07] JD: once categorizing their employees as 1099 independent contractors that in a variety of ways they can no longer do so. And they'll have to give them certain benefits, they'll have to deal with overtime, they'll have to deal with all that kind of jazz. But it brings up lots of interesting questions around the 401k and are they now eligible for the 401k? Who's touching their face? [1:08:36] Chad: Mark and Tom are touching their face. [1:08:39] Speaker F: Tom did it on purpose. [1:08:41] Justin: Don't touch it. [1:08:43] JD: Just don't touch your face. It's not good. [1:08:46] Chad: We're in a pandemic, man. [1:08:47] JD: It's not good. Covid stuff. [1:08:50] Speaker G: Do you know anything about this? [1:08:51] JD: I know you're not here in Cali, so have you looked at it at all? [1:08:55] Justin: I mean, we've got a Cali, We've got two California offices, so I'm aware of it enough. Right. I can't say I'm an expert on it, but, you know, I think for right now, for. It's the same issue that you're familiar with as a tpa, right. I'm sure over the years you have dealt with clients that have employee groups that you want to be able to exclude. Right. And so I think right now the normal tools are the ones we've always had. Can you exclude groups and pass your testing and not offend the irc? I'm unaware. There's no way that a California law can like tap into the non discrimination rules of the IRC and say, like, no, you can't exclude this group. Right? I mean, that's not what's happening, right? [1:09:43] Speaker G: Well, it may be a little bit, [1:09:45] JD: according to Chad and kind of stuff that he's learned and looked at. [1:09:49] Speaker G: But I agree with you, Tom. And maybe we're going to team up [1:09:52] JD: on Chad right now. Just kidding. [1:09:55] Chad: Bring it. [1:09:56] Speaker G: Is that. Yeah, it's this whole federal law, trump [1:09:59] JD: state law kind of thing. And so Gavin can do whatever he wants to do. Doesn't matter when it comes to the federal and when it comes to erisa, more importantly, those are the rules that matter. And so when ERISA says you need [1:10:12] Speaker G: to, to meet this Darden rule, and don't get me wrong, I think plan [1:10:19] JD: companies that run a retirement plan, not the S word, always struggle with determining whether someone's a 1099 independent contractor or not. [1:10:29] Speaker G: And they are supposed to be using that Darden list of questions. [1:10:32] Chad: Right? [1:10:33] JD: Am I getting that right? [1:10:33] Chad: Darden, Darden, Darden. [1:10:36] JD: Where they go through it all. Well, my point to the AB5 is that hasn't changed. That's still what's in place and when advisors. [1:10:46] Chad: But it has changed. It has changed and it's changed because of the way in which they're treating these employees. The Darden rule federally still exists. All of those questions of are you meeting these criteria to be considered an independent contractor still exists. But in California, they're saying, hey, this person who was once a gig employee is now W2, and now you have to include them in your health insurance. Now you're paying them and you're covering the Social Security costs for tax purposes. Those are part of the Darden tests. So if we've now brought that employee from a 1099, and now we're forced in California to give them access to health insurance and to cover taxes that are associated with, with fica, then now we're failing the Darden test. Those are two components of it. So even though federal law trump state, the person that I employ, the things that I'm doing for them as an employee is now not allowing me federally to classify them as an independent contractor. That's, that's my belief. [1:11:56] JD: You, Gavin didn't tell you how you had to treat your employees. He told you if you were treating them this way, they would now be classified this way. And so he's not forcing you to do something to them. He's saying, look, if you're doing this already, then you're going to have to do this. And what I'm trying to tell you [1:12:19] Speaker G: is the Darden rules are still what ERISA cares about. ERISA has blinders on to whatever California state rules are. [1:12:29] JD: It doesn't give a shit. It's saying, look, these are the rules that you have to follow and if you meet all these and you're an independent contractor, then you can exclude that person from one K plan. [1:12:40] Chad: That right there is my argument that these, that what California is having to do with these employees, with these people is not allowing them to abide by those. The ten darting questions. [1:12:54] Speaker G: You gave an example earlier. [1:12:56] JD: What was the one you gave? The one example was the health insurance or whatever. [1:13:00] Chad: Tom, the one I'm, the one I'm running into all the time right now is you have a small business, you have an in, you have an owner only company that's been operating a solo K where they're, you know, they're not filing a 5500 and they've got no testing to worry about. And they have two independent contractors. And now AB5 comes out. They're clear in the state of California that they can no longer treat them as independent contractors. So now they put them on a payroll, they're covering FICA taxes, they're covering Social Security taxes, and they're giving them access to health benefits as if they were a normal W2 paid employee. And so now those folks in my mind are eligible for the 401k if they meet the other eligibility restrictions, even though federal law states that you can still exclude them as an independent contractor. My thought is because we're paying for their payroll taxes, because we're forced to offer them health benefits, they are no longer qualified as an independent contractor federally because we've, we no longer can abide by those Darden tests. By the Darden test. That's, that's, that's what I'm running into is these small businesses that now are failing in adp. I mean, shit, you guys know this. They're writing their plan with a census. There's no eligibility restrictions, there's no safe harbor. These people became eligible in January. And now the business owners reaching out saying, I can't defer, I'm going to fail in ADP. I'm top heavy. I owe them 3%. There's no eligibility, so I don't have time to fix this. And they're in a shit show, quite honestly. [1:14:44] Justin: I mean, that's a tough spot. I mean, did everyone know this was coming? And now they're only dealing with it six months after the fact, September to January. [1:14:54] Chad: I mean, it passed in September of 2019 and it took effect in January of 2020. [1:14:59] Speaker G: So I don't think this was, I [1:15:01] JD: don't think this was heavy on Tom's radar just because, you know him not being in the state. There were a lot of attorneys that came out in September and November and December and said that this doesn't apply to the 401k. This does not apply to the 401k. They talked about federal trumping state. And Chad, you're actually the first person to come to me and there's got to be other people, but you're a smart guy. Maybe you're the first one to think about it that is actually saying, like, no, there are some of these rules in California that are almost forcing these employees to now fail the Darden test. And that's not what I heard from attorneys. So that. That's interesting. And we'll tee it up for future shows. I just want to see if it's [1:15:51] Chad: interesting because I'm running into it often. And nine out of ten times right now, it is small solo K plans where the gentleman or the female felt like they were the only person eligible for this plan. They're running a business where they hire some outside help to assist them, and now they're being told, no, your company, you have employees and they're struggling. [1:16:16] Speaker G: I want to be a million percent [1:16:18] JD: clear, though, for anyone that listens now and in the future, if they did not meet that requirement before all this, meaning that those employees were not properly designated to be an independent contractor, then that employer was just screwing up from the, from the first point. Like, they. They have to meet those requirements. So that's. That's got to be first and foremost. But if somehow, because of this new rule, you think that that relationship is changing, you're telling me that Gavin Newsom of the state of California is forcing you now to treat your employee differently, that now makes them no longer ineligible for the plan. [1:16:54] Speaker G: That, to me, I'm no attorney, obviously, but that to me is something that you can't do. You can't create laws that then impact federal. [1:17:05] Chad: And not only that, it gave them no time to adjust. Like most of these people that are small, very small, just owner only. They don't. They're not connected to TPAs. They're not connected to Tom. They don't know this. They don't have an advisor. They went on to TD Ameritrade and they signed a little contract to open a solo K. They have no idea that this is happening to them. And it's like 09 JD when 403B started getting shafted, when they were subject to ERISA, most of them never kept records. They had no idea what backlash I hear you are for these owner Only plans. [1:17:45] Speaker G: Let's dig a little deeper. [1:17:46] JD: We still got 16 people here, so thank you to you guys hanging out. I think Tom wants to go play with his kid. At a certain point, his kids are like, come on, dad, let's go do this. [1:17:55] Speaker G: But over here. Soon we'll go deeper on this because I know that there are more detailed [1:18:02] JD: analysis around you being on a state level, you're actually an employee and on a federal level, you're an independent contractor. And believe it or not, you can do both. And the FTB.gov talks about that and their FAQ. So it goes deeper than this. [1:18:20] Speaker G: I'll give you one last question, Tom. That came from the Internet and we'll wrap this up. [1:18:26] JD: Do you think the retireholics have a drinking problem? No, thank you. [1:18:34] Speaker G: We only drink on Tuesdays and Thursdays, [1:18:36] JD: so it's all good. [1:18:37] Chad: Yeah, just Tuesdays and Thursdays. [1:18:40] Justin: You don't have a drinking problem. You have a drinking solution. [1:18:45] Speaker G: Thank you, sir. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for giving us your thoughts. [1:18:49] JD: Thanks for being part of our circus. [1:18:51] Chad: Let me plug a little bit for you, Tom, because we chatted about it on the last show. Your Friday Q&As that you're doing, oh my gosh, they're so awesome. It's really, really educational and fun. [1:19:03] Justin: I'm taking a break. I'll tell you. I'm taking a break this Friday because I did five weeks in a row. And what I, you know, is as I did them, because I knew that there was no amount of newsletter writing that I could do to help people without just being there to get the questions as they came in. But it's become, And I asked for it, but it's become, you know, the hour. And then I probably this last week got 25 emails and I answered every single one of them. It took me some days, right, to get through all of them. But I think what I'm going to be doing is just switching to every other week for the foreseeable future and that I keep it, you know, there's. [1:19:47] Chad: Oh, that would be awesome. [1:19:48] Speaker F: Can you move it to like 9am West Coast? 8am is a little rough, dude. [1:20:01] Speaker G: 8am is rough for the. [1:20:03] Justin: But I do appreciate you saying that, Chad. I mean, I do appreciate it. It was my attempt at not having a very good response, not having a really good option other than to just make myself available to folks in the best way that I could because this sucks all around so bad. [1:20:18] Chad: And just a huge kudos to you, dude. It's hard to be vulnerable in an open space like that where you're just saying, bring it. Anything you want, bring it, bring it. And you just answer away. [1:20:29] Justin: Especially because I'm not a traditional ERISA attorney. I have not spent my career, I did not start my career drafting plans like 90% of my colleagues. Right. I started working for Schlichter and I've gotten into the title two plan design things sort of in the second part of my career. And so it's especially. I mean, to be honest, we're honest on the show. It's especially vulnerable when people throw things that maybe like my colleagues learned their second year out, I might have learned three months ago. [1:20:59] Speaker G: I just want you to know that's [1:21:00] JD: my favorite part of the show is when someone asks you a question, you just say, I have no fucking idea. [1:21:09] Chad: He's heard it before. [1:21:09] Speaker G: That's my favorite part. That's my favorite part. I love you. I love you for that. I'm like, that's awesome. [1:21:15] Justin: But I'll get you the answer. Because the beautiful thing about my firm is I've got 30 geniuses that are my co workers, right? So I can drop a text or an email and get an answer pretty quick. So it's, it's that, that, you know, that's the best part about working at this place is even if I, even if I don't have the answer, I know somebody does. But. But I will say the. The Friday calls have resulted in really getting ahead of some of the issues that I don't think anybody has answers for yet and finding some of those squishy spots of our current place. And even some of the harder ones, I've shared with Nevin, who I think is still on our call in an attempt to try to pass that along to the brain power at Napa and the Ara and Aspa and they've got their brain trust putting FAQs. And this last week I plugged their website and their resource center as well. Now is not the time to try to forward answers and be the only person out there. To the extent that we can all kind of join forces, that is my goal. So love it. [1:22:19] Mark: Love it. [1:22:19] Justin: Love you to me too. They have been useful to me too, immensely. [1:22:24] JD: Very cool. [1:22:24] Speaker G: Well, don't feel guilty. You can do it every other week, but we'll still be doing this thing twice a week, Tuesdays and Thursdays at 4:30, because we can do it. [1:22:35] Chad: My liver is going to run up our health bills. [1:22:39] Speaker G: See you later, guys. [1:22:40] JD: Have a great night. [1:22:41] Justin: Hey, everyone. [1:22:41] Speaker G: That is still on. Thanks for attending Nevin Jeff, Josh, Lauren, Michael. [1:22:46] JD: Paul. [1:22:47] Chad: Paul. [1:22:47] JD: Pch. [1:22:48] Speaker G: Pch. You're still here, buddy. Suzanne and Tim. See ya. [1:22:55] Chad: Have a good day, everybody. [1:22:56] Mark: Take care. [1:22:57] Speaker G: Yeah. [1:22:57] Chad: Thank you, Tom. Really appreciate you. [1:22:59] Justin: Yeah. [1:23:00] Speaker G: Appreciate you, buddy. [1:23:01] Justin: Be you soon in person somewhere, hopefully, yeah.