Jamie Hopkins: Plan Design & Retirement Spending Trends

[0:01] JD: That would be a dope office, Bolsa. Would. Okay, are you ready for my intro? Here we go. Here we go, everybody. A new intro. Sam. All right, that'll be. That'll be Chad's welcome. If Chad doesn't have an ice because he's coming in, is he coming from baseball practice or something? [1:30] Justin: I have no clue where he's at, but sounds right. [1:32] JD: He's gonna be here. Chad will be here, everybody. We will keep that, that ice on ice waiting for him. And Mark, unfortunately, is not with us. He's continuing a little family dealio. But he will be back with us next week. We're gonna go straight into headlines before an intro of our guests. We'll intro you here shortly. But first, let's tackle a cutting edge headline. Franklin Templeton to purchase Putnam Investments from Great west for just shy of a billion dollars. 925 million bucks. Check out this sentence and tell me, tell me if you all feel like this is weird. Franklin buys Putnam from Great west, which is owned by Empower, which will now have 6.2% stake in Franklin. Getting a little, I don't know, one more that I want to get. I want to get your thoughts, Jamie. Great west, which also owns Empower Retirement, we just talked about that, will commit 25 billion to Franklin Templeton's air quotes special investment managers within 12 months of the deal closing. I guess my question for you is, okay, Franklin Templeton purchase Putnam, an investment mutual fund investment firm. I get it. But is this okay when Great west is now involved? There's a partnership with Franklin. One's a record keeper these days. There's all kinds of things happening. Manage accounts, fiduciary services. Like, do you feel like there's some, some like I'm, I'm kissing my cousin here type of conflict of interest stuff? Or is this like. J.D. shut up. This is the way the world works now. [3:25] Jamie Hopkins: Well, it might be both. You know, I think that cousins do get married in some places, J.D. so it's possible you can ask Chad [3:33] Justin: when he gets on the show, but. [3:35] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah, I mean, that's an interesting circle there in deal structure, right? I mean, that's, that's. I don't know, like, you need a map for that one. But, you know, I don't know. Part of it is if you just look at the general world, the total number of companies is going down again, right? Like, we've seen that consolidation and you don't have as many public companies, and that's been a movement since like the late 90s and so this whole like self dealing eventually if we end up with four or five consolidated, how could you not? [4:02] JD: Right? [4:03] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah, they all end up investing in each other and they all end up working with each other. Now I mean the, the question is on some of this stuff, is it, you know, is it mandatory, you know, movement into some of these investments or is it we're opening it up on a platform which is a very different thing. Right. Because even the one is like is it mandatory that they have to move that assets over or are they saying hey look, we're going to get it there because we can hit 4%, right? Like those are a little bit of the nuances on it. Because a lot of times place know if you open up funds on a platform, you know how much is going to flow. But it's not mandatory. Right. It's just we know how much money moves, we know how many people trade, we know how many opportunities they are. [4:42] JD: And you know, just remember though then in 401k specific it can get a little dicier. It's not, it's not always just straight open architecture and, and the participants pick what they want. Not to mention you end up having kind of 3:38 manage account service type deals. You, you have target date fund stuff, you have sleeves in this manage account versus that. So there's a lot more levers and buttons they can kind of push on to kind of force that. What did they say? That 25 billion. And so I don't think they come out with that number out of thin air of just like oh yeah, I think maybe we'll kind of sort of get to 25 billion. They clearly have a strategic business plan to make that happen. And that's kind of the question I'm posing to the audience as well as you guys is kind of making fun of myself. I tend to go tinfoil hat and like point fingers at this stuff. But I think as I'm growing up on this show I'm realizing like, you know, it's a capitalist society. There are such things as strategic partnerships and if you can acquire companies and that can fit into your model some way to create a win win, you know, something that you feel like is good for your, your participants and your advisor partners, but also like dare I say, create some kind of upper level of profitability for yourself. Is that a bad thing? So much, you know, to your point, consolidation. They quoted Dick Darien in this article, Dick Darien of Wise Rhino fame, and he says, quote, anyone looking at the asset management industry, also known as Putnam Here can see that it has to consolidate. There are too many players adding too little value and the customers demanding more for less meaning fees are going down. So that's a fair statement. Not just in the record keeping space, but God, yeah, in the investment space. How many damn mutual funds and collective investment trusts are there? And how many different sectors offered by how many? Have you ever gone to a retirement or a financial services con conference on. Conference. Yeah, conference or. Or a golf tournament and you get a golf ball with a logo on it and you're like, who the are these guys? And they're a mutual fund company. That happens to me a lot. I feel like. [7:04] Jamie Hopkins: Well, the ETF, the number of ETFs out there have just like. I mean there's abnormal crazy. Just awful. Right? [7:12] JD: So you have your penalty drink with you, Jamie? [7:15] Jamie Hopkins: I do, yeah. [7:17] JD: So you're learning the rules as you go. You should have used the word exchange traded fund. Instead you said the acronyms. You must drink from your penalty drink. Yeah. Yes. Consolidation in the investment space has to happen. One last thing in this article and then I'm going to shoot to you, Justin, for an intro of our guest here. The announcement did not address the role that will be played by current Putnam President and Chief Executive Officer Robert Reynolds and the other executives at the firm. If they're listening, which I know they're. They are. Everybody listens to the show. I'll give them a little advice. Okay, peeps. Mr. President of Putnam and all the executives there, I would freshen up your LinkedIn bio if I was you. Just saying, not so sure you're going to be there so long, but that's just my thoughts. I don't know if the chat bar agrees. This is the type of the time of the show where Justin is going to intro our guest. And you all there are going to rank Justin on a 0 to 10. And the better he does, the better chance he keeps his job. Justin, I know you've been working and doing some stuff. Traveling. You've been across borders. Are you doing a new version of this tonight or. [8:31] Justin: No, no, I'm just gonna, you know, keep lying and see what happens with it. [8:35] JD: Okay, you go take it away. [8:37] Jamie Hopkins: All right. Perfect. [8:38] Chad: All right. [8:38] Justin: Born and raised in suburban town of Schirmer, Illinois. He's a charismatic and clever human being known for his ability to charm his way out of any situation. He's quick, witty, maintains rebellious streak. Rebellious streak. And has an insatiable thirst for mischief. Even going as far as taking his dad's prize 61 Ferrari out for a joyride one day when ditching school back in the day, his life mantra is live move or is live fast. And if you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. He's a managing partner, Wealth Solutions at Carson Group. Mr. Jamie Hopkins. [9:10] JD: Can I, can I guess in the chat bar or no. [9:14] Justin: What are they saying? [9:16] JD: Nobody up. But I want to guess. Let it ride, huh? Let it simmer, right buddy? We talked about this. Okay, next time. I can't help it. [9:28] Justin: There it is, there it is. [9:32] JD: All right, wonderful intro. Nice to have you here, Ferris. I mean Jamie. I mean Jamie. All right, next article, next headline I'd like to go to. I think you might know this one well, Mr. Hopkins. It is titled, I've got the actual title, but I call it Hopkins wants Retirees to Spend more. Yeah, I'll drink for this. T F. What are you talking about here? Can you set this up for us a little bit? [10:02] Jamie Hopkins: Oh, I can. And yeah, it's an interesting one. It's also interesting when I see like headlines with my name starting it off. It's a terrible way to get people to click on it. [10:14] JD: Although a very clickbaity title. But yeah, what's your name doing in there? Kind of ruined it. [10:19] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah, it kind of did. So yeah. So this is interesting phenomena. It's not everybody, we know that lots of Americans don't have enough money, they can't spend more. But there's a really big part of Americans that they save for retirement and then they, what I'll say is they self insure for every risk possible. So they hold on to all of their concerns, right, that I'm going to run out of money, I'm going to need health care, I'm going to need long term care and that they just don't spend. And so you see as this like group of Americans that just die with a lot of money left and it goes to their kids and their grandkids and they spend it on the Ferrari, right? And they go drive it around and you know, they don't really get to live the life they should. So a big part of that is giving people permission to spend and to me that's a really important thing. So you understand you don't run out of money then have permission to actually spend. And probably one of the more interesting things is it's kind of nuanced from this one is I actually think a lot of people should stop saving for retirement when they get near retirement. That's probably actually the more Controversial one. I'm actually really, really, really against the catch up provisions. So everybody's always like, catch up provisions are great. I am super against them. And I think it's terrible policy. [11:32] JD: So you're not into the new. You're not in the new. Secure two years, jack it up by 10 grand, man, for three years, and [11:39] Jamie Hopkins: you can magically save an additional $30,000. [11:42] Chad: Right. [11:42] JD: Glorious. [11:44] Justin: But I mean, I got it. [11:45] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah. [11:45] Justin: I'll keep going. [11:46] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah. So what happens is mentally you're like, I have to penny pinch and save every dollar I can. [11:53] JD: And don't forget, we as advisors, we teach them that their whole, like financial career too, right? [11:58] Jamie Hopkins: Like higher life. [11:59] JD: Yeah, yeah. [12:00] Jamie Hopkins: And then you get to retirement. We're saying, just kidding, you have to learn how to spend money. So it's literally this whole, like, ridiculous notion that the last couple years before retirement were teaching you how to spend or save more money than ever before. And that is totally against the behavior you then have to exhibit the next day. [12:17] JD: And you're saying you want to wean them off and start to get them ready for spending. Not the opposite. [12:24] Justin: Interesting. [12:25] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah. And it. You just think about behavior. You teach people stuff, and we teach everybody to do the opposite of what they need to do like a month later. And the other part is, I've started. [12:34] JD: You think Shlomo agrees with you on that? [12:37] Jamie Hopkins: Shlomo and I have talked about it. Yeah. So he's, he's come on my show before. He's. He's, he's in. [12:44] JD: You don't have to name drop Jamie. We haven't had him on here. [12:47] Jamie Hopkins: So we can get Slow Mo on. We'll tag them, tell them we have. [12:51] JD: We have him on the calendar. He's coming up. Yeah, Little sneaker. A little spoiler alert, everybody. Okay. This is number one of your three spend more things. But when I read it and tell me if I'm wrong, you didn't say necessarily that you, you want them to stop saving and spend time. Spend. You kind of gave them a little cheat. Right. Go ahead and keep saving, but then start spending. [13:13] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah. [13:13] JD: Almost the same amount. [13:15] Jamie Hopkins: And Guy, Guy, I see the chat bar put in a really good point, is that, look, a lot of people are making the most money they ever have in their 50s and 60s. Interestingly enough, in America now, age 49 is at highest average earning year right now. It is actually starting to decrease after that, which used to not be the case. So it's an interesting change in when people's highest earning years are occurring too. But that point's not lost to me. It's probably the time you can save the most. [13:40] JD: Wait, wait, I have a question. Do you think in, in decades before that it was past 49 or before? [13:49] Jamie Hopkins: No, it was a little bit later in past. [13:51] JD: Okay, okay, that makes sense. [13:52] Jamie Hopkins: And it's actually started to move downward in age, which is just interesting data. But so one, it probably is when you can save the most. But what I view it is like take the 10 grand that you otherwise would have done, catch up contributions, go spend it on a nice vacation, right? Go to Mexico for a week and if you can start doing that and you know, it doesn't work for everybody, I get that. But I have a couple people I've told this to and there's one guy in particular I know well, I told this to about six years ago and he stayed in the workforce because his mind was I gotta save everything. And then he's like, you know what if I can stay part time or like half time work and I spend that money instead of saving it on nice vacations, I can work longer. And the reality is if you can work six months longer by spending that 30 grand, you'll actually improve your retirement outcome over saving 10 grand. And that's not super hard math, right? It's just six months of additional income is probably going to overweight $30,000 of savings and a withdrawal of that. So you put that together. Actually, if you spend that money instead of say it work six months longer, you're in a better spot. So I've kind of started to fall into that notion that I think we should actually, public policy wise push against it. I've, you know, talk to Richard Thaler about that one too. And he actually likes it a little bit more probably than Schlomo does. But Richard, Richard Thaler does like that idea. Wow, another name drop. [15:16] JD: Probably drink for name drops. [15:17] Jamie Hopkins: Probably should call me out on it already. [15:20] Justin: I'm still, I'm still get. I like the concept but I'm still getting hung up on. I feel like a big part of a, you know, America can't actually do that because people, people don't start saving until later. So I mean obviously the, the yeah, the reality is they should start saving younger but such a large quantity of people aren't doing that. So that doesn't really work in my head so well. [15:40] Jamie Hopkins: But if you look at the catch up contribution world, that's not that group, right? So if you look at the catch [15:45] Justin: up contribution world, Good point, good point. [15:47] Jamie Hopkins: They're averaging 250,000 plus at age 60, they tend to have millions. I mean there are, it's rare that you get somebody who's a low income earner that hasn't saved in ketchup world because you have to max out the first 18 and then do an additional. [16:02] Justin: I completely bypass that thought. Good call. [16:03] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah. [16:05] JD: Facts are facts, Justin. You're right. I mean there are broke people that their financial plan retirement is going to be like how the hell do they stretch their Social Security and what, what can of beans are they going to buy? So fair enough. I mean that's all over the spectrum. But this is just. I get where you're, I like where you're going with this, Jamie, because we, as, as a, an industry, we spend so much time like pointing our finger at people and shaking our head at them in terms of don't spend save, save, save, don't buy that nice car, don't go on that trip, you know, be a squirrel and nut it all up. And, and we, we don't teach them how they're actually going to use the money. Your technique number two or your two of three is needs, wants and wishes. So what the fuck are we talking about there? What's going on? [16:48] Jamie Hopkins: Needs, wants and wishes. Simpler way to put it is like essential versus discretionary expenses. You know, what do you need in life? And there's some people, you know, there's been some work done in, in the past and articles you might have had Tom Hagna on back in the day too. Never heard of him. So he does an interesting concept. Yeah. As fam. Or dog food. That's kind of it. Right? Like you don't want to eat cat food and dog food in retirement. So you want to make sure that there is a baseline of income that like you can pay your rent, you can buy food you don't like die because you can't get medical. Right. And that if you take care of that, what you see is people become more willing to flex on the, what we call discretionary expenses. You know, think your Netflix account, we were talking about Netflix earlier or you know, I have single barrel Jack Daniels here. I could buy just regular Jack Daniels and turn that from a necessity to like, you know, a discretionary expense. And there's some savings in there. And so one of the things I think about that is like, even if you just lay out what that is for somebody, then how much Social Security, how much distributions do you have from your retirement accounts to meet the essential. You can give people this permission that hey look, I can actually Spend some of this other money on discretionary things like travel, because I know that my needs are actually taken care of. So it's almost more like a mental accounting approach. And what mental accounting is, is that the way we receive or categorize money impacts how we use. And that's just an interesting phenomena, too. You know, if we have lottery winnings or we win money in Vegas, right? Like, we don't take really serious care of money. We win in Vegas. We just throw it away. Right? Like, we. We spend it on the next table, we go out to drinks, whatever it is. [18:38] JD: Well, it's not real money, Jamie. It's just those little colorful chips. [18:41] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah, it's not real money. Right. Just throw it away. And so how we lay our money, how we title accounts, all that stuff kind of falls into that one. So, you know. Yeah, it's a. I think it's an interesting behavioral one. Again, that one's built off of behavioral science to some degree, but it's. I don't think that's proven out like, that it actually works. I think that's like, totally theory in the sense of, like, hey, some of [19:05] JD: this stuff frustrates me a little bit. I. I have feelings of guilt that the red Lambo wasn't enough for me and I got the fluorescent green one, but they look good sitting next to each other in the driveway. And so I feel like it's a functional purchase in that regard. Number three, go beyond success and failure metrics. [19:28] Jamie Hopkins: So success and failure is, like, one of my least favorite things in the whole industry. This falls into. I mean, you guys see this all the time. You log into some retirement plan and they've got a calculator in there. [19:41] JD: Oh, Monte Carlo kind of stuff. [19:43] Jamie Hopkins: Monte Carlo. Success or failure of your retirement. And it's not how people live. We don't live in success or failure. We modify our spending. Like, nobody just stays on the same 4% when they're running out of money. And like, well, I got, like, you know, I'm 75. I'm just going to keep on spending this thing down. Like, it's not how anyone lives. So we have this whole notion of success and failure. And really it's about, you know, I. Some friends I talk about this with. It's like, really, you want to look at, like, how much do you have to cut back? Like, what's the odds? You actually have to reduce your quantity, quality of living. Like, that's probably a better way to look at the whole thing. [20:16] JD: If you're. If you're Betting a hundred dollars on blackjack and you lose, Lose, lose, lose, lose. You don't just keep betting 100 until you're all out. You kind of shift to the 25 bet. [20:27] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah. It's how people live though, right? Like, no, like, people don't just spend. I mean, most people don't. There are people that just spend it all that, like, and just totally run out. But most people don't do that, right? They adjust their standard. They sell their house, they move, they spend less money. And so that whole notion of focusing calculators and Monte Carlo and success or failure, I think is just you. Look, we needed it back in the 90s, but we stuck to it for 30 years. [20:56] JD: Well, it's necessary to carve out a path and a plan, right? I mean, you gotta have some assumptions and some numbers and kind of plan out your. Your path. You just have to be. Understand that you're going to have to be flexible and bob and weave and. And it's not all going to work out that way. Is that. Was that a dog or a sound effect? [21:18] Jamie Hopkins: That's Baxter. [21:19] Chad: Yeah, right. [21:21] Justin: You know, he agrees with me. [21:23] JD: He thinks Monte Carlo's not all that bad. Chad, we spun the wheel of ice. And I know you don't believe us, but everyone in the chat bar can tell you that you lost. So [21:36] Chad: just a regular wheel. [21:37] JD: Yeah, I believe it was a smear. [21:40] Justin: I don't remember. To be honest. [21:41] JD: I actually can't remember to be. [21:42] Justin: We haven't done a straight smearn off in a while. I don't think so. Just do that one. [21:46] JD: All right, all right. Okay. Next time, Jamie, can you ask your people not to put your name on the front of a very catchy title because you had something going there. And. [21:58] Jamie Hopkins: Well, so. So that's an interest. I didn't write that article. No. So somebody. Somebody literally just took my talking points and wrote an article that put my name. [22:09] JD: Okay, so you're misleading your shit on Twitter. The video you did on Twitter. Yes, he transposed. Holy shit. [22:18] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah, no, that. That. That. That guy just made that into an article and then put my name up there like I wrote it. [22:25] JD: It's actually kind of baller. I don't think anyone's ever done that for us. I like that. Okay, here's another. Thank you, Brandon. Next headline. Smart Acquires Manage Account Provider Prominence. You might be saying to yourself, jd, can you let up on the whole smart company? Like, Jesus Christ. Like, every week you're bringing. [22:48] Chad: The royalties are too strong for them. [22:50] JD: I don't know, I just, I don't know, it's just me like yearning for this information or. But this is happening. This is brand new. They're buying another Manage account. I, I've talked about them in the past and I apologize because I got in a bit of trouble talking about them because they've been making these moves and I've been trying to anticipate like why and I come up with kind of random reasons why I think they're doing it. Then the company reaches out to me and lets me know that I'm wrong and I shouldn't have said that. And they tell me why they're doing certain things. I kind of battle with them a little bit. But let's, let's recall they bought Stadium, they partnered with Transamerica and, and someone else for a pooled employer plan that we talked about recently. And now here comes this. Oh, and then we heard a few weeks ago that they got like 95 million in, in series XYZ funding or whatever the it was and, and that they're going to use that money. Well, here they go. They're using that money. And what I got confused on is here I go being confused with Smart again. That sounds kind of funny. They bought another managed account service provider. Why? Why would you buy another one? I dug a little deep. Before you shake your head, Chad. [24:06] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah. [24:07] Chad: I don't get it. [24:07] JD: It appears to me that Pro Manage also has like a wellness side. So here I go again, getting in trouble. Are you ready? So are they building the chess pieces for the product that they will eventually unveil to the world and they will not only have the managed account which they will own, but they'll also have the Wellness tool and they will come to with their technology. I don't know. And I'm sure I'm gonna get in trouble again. But yeah, call me Smart, let me know. Oh wait, they don't have to call me. We're gonna have the CEO on this show in a few weeks, so. [24:46] Chad: Nice. [24:47] JD: We can ask him directly. [24:49] Chad: Are they, what do you know what tech they're leveraging from Trans? Because I would imagine that Trans doesn't feel too great about having all these snap on technologies when their product has similar solutions there. [25:05] JD: First of all, in the Trans deal, I did hear it directly from them. They're. They're not using Stadium in the Trans deal. So Stadium that they own will not be a managed account service provider in the Transamerica Bulletin player plan. So the technology that Trans is using is Smarts, which is apparently Just kind of like what we hear from Veswell and Aaron Schum and these people, this, this more modern tech stack that would allow them to enroll and onboard clients in a more efficient, low cost manner and, and much more stuff behind that which is all smoke and mirrors to me at this point. [25:44] Jamie Hopkins: But technology, you know, has anyone used that pro manage? They have because they've got that wellness, [25:52] JD: you know of this, right? [25:54] Jamie Hopkins: I know, I know that they have an app, I've never used it. But they've got that app that they push out there for you know, the wellness to consumer side. So it's like is that a play on it? I don't know. [26:05] JD: Has to be. My best bet is they are building their basketball team for lack of a better term. You know, they've got their forward and their center and they're starting to put the pieces together. No watch, I'm going to get an email in about a day, tell me [26:21] Chad: I'm full of, I don't know pro manage at all. So I've got them up on the other screen. Super interesting, but I don't know a damn thing about them. Never heard of them. [26:29] JD: How about this one? Chad Post acquisition of Promanage will make Smart the fifth largest manage account service provider. [26:44] Chad: So you're blending stadium and pro manage and saying they're the fifth largest now? [26:49] JD: Yeah, that's what the article says. [26:51] Chad: I have to imagine like you're saying they're going to keep those two siloed. Are they going to bleed the technologies on the managed account side? [26:59] JD: I feel like when they call me and yell at me they're going to say it's an apple and an orange like that. They supplement each other. But let me get more in trouble since I stuck my foot in it already. We know they dominate in Europe. So this is a London, this Smart company, Jamie is a London based company that basically crushed what is pooled employer plans in Europe. And so because they're such a leader, I think the leader over there in that space when they heard that pooled employer plans were going to be a thing here in the US I'll drink for that. They, they, they set up shop in Nashville and they're, they've got all this like 200 million dollars in and funding kind of get going to really dominate this market space. We're still seeing that kind of come to fruition. You know they don't, they're not out there doing it yet. They're doing strategic partnerships with companies and bringing tech involved and whatever. But so here's my conspiracy theory. Could they sell stadium and Pro Manage to all those clients they have in Europe? Strategy? I don't know. I don't know. [28:05] Chad: I'm so narrow minded. I hadn't even gone there. [28:08] JD: We'll find out. [28:09] Jamie Hopkins: Manage accounts overseas as an offering. [28:12] JD: Yeah, yeah. [28:14] Jamie Hopkins: I mean they would pro. I mean usually they still have to go re register and I mean it's. I'm sure it's not as. It's usually not as beneficial to take the investment stuff to the next. You know, I don't know. That'd be. [28:25] JD: I would not know but. I would not know. But I would imagine they. If they could find a way to like kill two birds with one stone and make some profits, maybe they would. But we'll find out the CEO's name is not Jordan Joe Don. So we will. We'll talk to him in a few weeks. So remember all this Chad Justin so we can ask questions. [28:47] Chad: I'm reading Pro Manage right now and I'm so damn confused. [28:50] JD: It's wellness though, really, right? Doesn't it seem more like. [28:54] Chad: No, I mean their mom system seems wellness but they're really pushing AI powered intelligence. But they're pushing heavy in the manufacturing side. Like that's clearly their specialty. Their niche industry is to go after these large manufacturers. [29:09] JD: By the way, get ready to see everyone saying that they have artificial intelligence in their product solution. You're going to see every solution out there. Like we use artificial intelligence. [29:24] Chad: Can we start saying it? [29:26] JD: Yeah, sure. No, Every, every time we run, we bring on a new client. We ask chat GPT if we did a good job and they say and then we use. [29:35] Chad: We use artificial intelligence. [29:37] JD: There you go. [29:37] Jamie Hopkins: We use. [29:38] JD: We use. We use Aldra. We use AI at our firm. Jamie, would you like to play a game or would you like to Struggling [29:49] Jamie Hopkins: with that one, huh? [29:50] JD: Talk about person group. [29:54] Jamie Hopkins: I don't know. We want to play a game, let's play a game. [29:57] JD: Let's play again. All right, Brandon, the you know the drill. The totally original never. Good. Jamie, the ways this game works is can you hear my chihuahua or no, it's my mic. That good, she's barking. The way this game works is I'm gonna throw something at you kind of pop culture and you're gonna let us know if it's nope. Or dope as in do you like it or are you not into it? And you're gonna explain to us why. Okay, the first one. My daughter goes to school in Paris, France. I've been there a few times this year. To visit. [30:43] Justin: And really, we didn't know. [30:44] JD: I have. I've ordered this dish at the. At the table. Are you. No. For dope on escargot? [30:53] Jamie Hopkins: Oh, I. I'm dope on good escargot. You like it on it? Yeah. [30:57] JD: And why explain to the audience what's so great about it? [31:02] Jamie Hopkins: So I'm. I'm definitely a foodie. I really good escargot. Done in the butter kind of. [31:07] JD: Right. [31:08] Jamie Hopkins: You know, it's like. Yeah, it's a very interesting texture, but I think it's a wonderful dish. Really rich, little chewy, you know, that little, like, spongy. Ish. Chewy flavor. But yeah, I think that's pretty good. [31:18] Chad: No, I've never heard anybody describe a spongy texture as a good food to eat. [31:25] JD: Chad, you're from Missouri, and so I'm not. I don't imagine they serve this there a lot, at least not the kind that they do in Paris. But are you an escargot? Noper. [31:35] Jamie Hopkins: Doper. [31:36] Chad: I have no experience, so I'm pleading the fifth, but I am interested in trying. But I have to imagine I'm not going to enjoy the. The small amount of food for the price that it entails and the lack thereof filling my actual belly. I want good, fill me up food. [31:56] Jamie Hopkins: So what I will tell you, that's really odd here. Omaha, Nebraska, has a very good escargot culture. Don't know why it got there, but, like, a couple of the steakhouses sell escargot, and they do them in these baked dishes with cheese over top, and they're actually really good. So, you know, if you're ever in Omaha, Mahogany Steakhouse, I have no relationship to there. Do a great baked escargot. Garlic butter, baked cheese. [32:23] JD: When you first said that, it shocked me, but I think I actually had my best. What I enjoyed the most escargot was in Orange County, California versus Paris, France. So I ordered it really good. But they can really, like, dress it up with lots of different kinds of things. [32:37] Chad: So next time we're together. JD not in Kansas City. [32:42] Jamie Hopkins: Cargo. [32:45] JD: Have you eaten snails before? [32:47] Justin: Dude, I'm a pansy when it comes to textures and all that stuff. Nope, won't do it. [32:52] JD: Okay. [32:52] Justin: No slime. Like slime. [32:56] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah, it's interestingly not slimy. [32:59] JD: I'm gonna go to. I'll take your word. Justin first. I'm gonna buck the trend. Instead of going to Jamie first, and I'm going to ask you using white printer paper and a black marker to write Your message on and share on social media versus using your actual voice. No burden. [33:19] Justin: Well, you did it today, so I gotta say dope. So I keep my job, right? [33:24] JD: I don't know. It's kind of a hashtag nerd alert moment, isn't it? When I did it, it felt awkward. Chad, are you okay with this? [33:30] Justin: It just felt like we were, you know, had us had a someone for the audibly impaired, you know, for a show. [33:35] Jamie Hopkins: Now these days I do. [33:38] Chad: I will say jd. I hate the whole, like, when people write messages. [33:43] JD: So I'm talking about. [33:45] Chad: I hate that. And they flip through one by one. Like what you did there. Some. Some little marketing. [33:51] JD: I'm okay with one thing. This is basically what Jamie's almost famous for. Like, this is the only thing really flipping through. [33:58] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah. [33:59] JD: But yes, he does, Chad. I started my intro today like this. [34:03] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah. [34:04] Chad: Yeah. I like the charisma of talking and chatting with someone. So I'm a nope on that. [34:11] JD: Jamie, I'm not really sure I give a what you think about this, so we'll move on to the next one. I think it's pretty obvious. It's pretty obvious. Okay. I might have a video that. Don't play the video yet, Brandon, but I'm going to you, Jamie. Hipster, everest, mountain climbing, CEOs. I'll drink for that. With. With scruffy beards, weird headgear, giving life advice on Instagram, you know, fancy pants who's worth a hundred million dollars, looking all scruffy and telling you how to live your life while he's climbing Mount Everest. Do you have a video, Brandon? [34:48] Jamie Hopkins: I've never heard of that. [34:51] Speaker E: Oh, One step in front of the other. Hi, I'm on Carson sue and founder of the Carson Group. Just one of the hardest ascents we've had. We've had a lot of hard ones. And I think it can't get any harder than they do. And what I've learned, just like life, one step in front of the other with your head down. Don't look up. And you'll make a lot more progress than you realize. And I know it's been a tough period for a lot of people in the market, a lot of people in their lives, a lot of anxiety around the world. World right now. My advice is, metaphorically speaking, put your head down. Put one step in front of the other. It reminds me one of my favorite sayings is they haven't failed until you quit trying. Hope you're having a great day. [35:38] Chad: That seems genuine. [35:39] JD: I know. I'm actually kind of a fan. [35:41] Justin: Is that really. Is he going to Everest? [35:43] Jamie Hopkins: Oh, he did. [35:43] JD: I don't. I don't. I don't think that's right. [35:46] Justin: You gotta. [35:46] JD: All right, Jamie, for that, are you. No. For dope on this. [35:50] Jamie Hopkins: So I. I'm not a fan of mountains. Ron knows this. So I'm not a. I. I did an April fool spoof, actually, where I pretended I was on a mountain. Pretended I was Ron Carson. No, you did not run up here on Mount Everest. And I did it on April Fools and said, I will send it to you. He loved it. He actually reposted it on his LinkedIn on April Fools. I sent it to him that day and he posted it up. Now, look, I will tell you, though, Ron cares a lot. So the one part, it kind of got glossed over there, but, like, the world look, that's. Somebody said, like, it's a 1 percenter thing. He's gotten to the point in life where he can care about other things besides, like, what we have to care about. [36:28] JD: Like, I got to get right. [36:30] Jamie Hopkins: It's. [36:30] JD: It's. It's the people that have high, high net worth that actually have the time to think and contemplate about what each step might mean in the physical world, to the mental world type of thing. [36:41] Chad: Yeah. [36:42] Jamie Hopkins: Food bills, getting my kids dressed. Yeah. But, like, I thought his takeaway on Everest when he came back was going to be like, oh, it was the most beautiful, amazing. And he was actually really saddened by the poverty level over there. Like, that was his main takeaway. And, like, I was super surprised by that because I thought he was just going to be like, oh, Everest and just awesome. [37:01] JD: And you should have seen the helicopter that brought us up and. Yeah. No. [37:06] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah. [37:06] JD: So, Chad, to your point, I don't know if you follow him, but I actually followed him on Instagram for several years. And you are right, Chad. Your instincts were correct. I wasn't trying to make too much fun of him because you would think I actually like the guy's look. Right. [37:22] Jamie Hopkins: You gu. Basically the same. [37:23] JD: Right. But. But he is. He is a genuine dude. Like, he is talking from the heart on most of most of this stuff. So I'm guessing you're okay with it. Chad, you're. You're down with that post you just saw. [37:36] Chad: I'm dope. [37:39] JD: And, Justin, how do you feel about really rich people telling you how to live your life while they're on exotic vacations? [37:46] Justin: Dude, I work for you, so I'm used to it by now. [37:50] JD: Fair enough. Well, this will Be a great transition because we are looking at the CEO, founder of Person Group. I'm guessing at these things. I'm familiar with the firm, Registered Investment Advisor National. Jamie, I think you've been there like four or five years and I remember when you kind of took that role and I had seen you on Social before that. Can you help the audience and basically Chad, Justin and myself understand a little more about Carson Group in terms of the size of it. How many advisors, how many states is it, Is it predominantly like wealth management or, and planning and, or, and how much of a inroads in the 401k do the Carson Group advisors have? There's a, there's a Carson coaching thing like give us, give us a taste for what this is all about. [38:39] Jamie Hopkins: People are going to be super bored now as I roll through Carson numbers. So apologize. [38:43] JD: I find this interesting to be honest with you. [38:46] Jamie Hopkins: Well here's the, here's the most interesting part. So we'll actually just start with Ron's story. So Ron grew up in Nebraska and lived on a farm, went to Nebraska to play football, hurt his knee, couldn't play anymore. And his parents went bankrupt when he was in college. So Ron all of a sudden couldn't play football there anymore, parents were bankrupt, farming Crisis in the 80s and so Ron picked up a phone book and started doing cold calls and selling insurance out of his dorm room. And so he literally then started just driving around the state of Nebraska, got a car and was selling, you know, Medicare stuff and life insurance back in the early 80s. And you know, obviously the industry changed since then but you know, he went from selling insurance out of his Dorm room to 1993, he launched the coaching company and then was with LPL, the broker dealer for about 25 years. And the interesting thing is Ron moved quickly out of. [39:45] JD: Finish your thought but you owe us one. [39:47] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah, that's fine. [39:48] JD: Lynscope private ledger. [39:50] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah, it's a, that's not even an easy one because they're technically, I think that might be their legal name now. [39:56] JD: That doesn't matter here. We've been through this before. [40:01] Jamie Hopkins: So I was with a broker dealer and actually in 19 like 95 he hit $20 million of advisory assets and that broker dealer threw a company wide party which is crazy. Think that in the mid-90s like that was the largest amount of advisory assets that existed in the country. [40:19] JD: That is crazy. [40:20] Jamie Hopkins: Which is wild. And so he started a coaching company. Then fast forward to I wipe, I [40:25] JD: wipe my ass with that shit these days. [40:27] Jamie Hopkins: And we were still yeah. So fast forward. We have about 500 advisors across the country now. We are mostly in the wealth management and planning side. So that's really where we sit. We don't really do much insurance or brokerage business anymore. That's kind of all gone. It's stopped a lot in the industry. And then the 401k side historically, I think you actually talked about us in a show not that long ago maybe when we did the Vestwell announcement and we were not big into that space. I'd say advisors helped some companies set it up. We did that. We've probably got about 2,3 billion in retirement assets and we're actually purchasing in the next next couple weeks here a large retirement operation. I mean 6, 7 billion that will be coming on too. [41:17] JD: So can I ask why you're saying they're a retirement focused shop and they're going to become part of the Carson Group? [41:25] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah. [41:25] JD: What motivated that? Is it their desire to get into wealth management or they already have a sliver of that or I mean it's an odd home for a retirement plan specific shop. [41:35] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah. So they already have a sliver of it. And if I actually kind of tell like where we want to be, we want to be able to serve that whole spectrum of what a, you know, say a business owner wants in their planning. So we actually have, we bought a tax company too. So we do tax filings, audits. So we have a tax entity which is not totally unique in the wealth management space but a little bit different. And we now manage, you know, some. We've built out the retirement division a little bit and we're trying to tack some of those additional services onto like a very core planning company. [42:11] JD: And so that leave you believe in convergence and you sought out Vestwell to find a platform to execute on this. And so this is clearly part of your. I'm going to use the best. Well guys, well the guideline, this is part of your roadmap is to, to start to build more of a 401k Focus that kind of venn diagrams and crosses over into your wealth management and your planning. [42:40] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah. And what I think about the future is about convenience. That's actually the word that I throw around a lot. I think most people want convenience in life and that if I can go to your wealth manager and say look, you know, I run a business, can you help me set up my retirement plan? Can you get the insurance, can you manage the assets, can you file my taxes, can you pay my bills and can you do that in a way that actually like doesn't feel like it costs what a, you know, private family office would cost. That's a really cool place to be in long term. Like that's where, I mean, that's where I want to be. I don't like going to nine different people, you know. [43:17] JD: What do you think about that, Chad? [43:18] Chad: Well, that's what I've been saying for years. And it wasn't so much about going to the advisor direct in my opinion, Jamie, it's going to be through the business. Employees, executives are going to find these services through the relationships that the business bring in. Now if that's Carson Group, then you end up being that solution for all those folks. But I do believe that point of access, that convenience is going to come through the business level relationships. And if you're doing the 401k and you have the wellness and you have the private wealth of the executives, you're going to be tied into all of those. [43:52] JD: Well, can you imagine when we heard the Putnam Great west deal and they're guessing at the 26 billion. I have to imagine you sit down and look at Carson Group and would you say 500 advisors across the country and, and you have to like kind of look at that data and ask yourself, dude, these are, this is low hanging fruit for us if we have solid relationships. You guys are clearly, I'm not trying to kiss your ass. You're clearly a reputable and well put together firm that's top notch and has a great brand. I'm sure a lot of your clients love the Carson Group brand and the service they get there. So there probably would be pretty eager to hear about a 401k solution. I say this out loud because we talked about this before chat bar or people listening in out there in the future like the retirement plan. Specific advisor needs to keep hearing this story because some of y' all think like, well this won't touch you, this won't come to you. But these firms are big and they have solid relationships and I, I think we see the needle moving and go ahead Chancer. [45:03] Chad: I was just gonna say imagine Jamie and teammates going in to a private wealth client and talking about bringing all that that client has experienced and enjoyed and the reason why they're engaged with you to potentially the 401k relationship. And then imagine that chief and chief executive officer stepping into the human resources person shit, this is tough. And being able to say, hey, I've been working with this group for years and I'm so excited that they have this service now. And I'm bringing what they've done for me personally into the rest of our employees. And I know it won't be the same relationship and it might not be at the same scale, but that story resonates and that story will sell and that 401k will be in the pocketbooks of these private wealth folks that are going to do a good job in that space. [45:53] JD: Look at Ro Rob. I guess I'm gonna drink for that with the slam dunk cross sell. I like that. Jamie. I want to move on to something else real quick before we kind of wrap up. But how, how close are you to the Veswell product? Did you lay eyes on this? Were you part of this process? We're fans of Aaron Chum. We're kind of rooting for Veswell in one way, shape or form. So when I see person group. No, I mean that's. When I see Carson Group partnering with them, I have positive feelings about that and I want to see that kind of succeed. Were you involved in that and are you excited about it? [46:31] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah, so I was involved with it. So the retirement division, which I think, you know, rolls up to me still, I don't run that one any. I've got a great team there and. But yeah, I was a part of the RFP process, but I'd say more from the. Yeah, I definitely just did one there. [46:48] JD: So keep, keep sharing your thoughts. [46:53] Jamie Hopkins: But so we went out for requests and you know, we probably looked at 16, 17 different places. Now we don't, we did not do a exclusive deal. We don't really believe in that from like a fiduciary standpoint. Like if we have to use somebody else, we got to use somebody else. Right. Like so. [47:12] JD: But, but vest was. I like that. Thanks for the clarity. You're not going to handcuff your advisors to where they can't sell Fidelity or Empower or Voya when, when the time is right. But I'd imagine one of Veswell's strengths is kind of putting the Carson Group logo on the product kind of cut. Right. [47:31] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah. So we, we essentially have. Right. A pretty simple low end offering. And I mean low end small plan solution. We have different solutions when we move upscale a little bit internally too. And. But that's the one that we said, you know, under 4, you know, under 2 million, under $3 million of assets. That's a pretty good solution to kind of get up white label and get out there to the market. And a lot of the advisors that don't do it, a lot that don't have, you know, 50, 60 plans. They need more of that guidance. So then our home office team can walk along with them a bit and Veswell makes the process a little simpler. They're actually less likely to mess it up then. I mean actually the advisors that do like one or two plans total and they just go pick somebody. There's actually a ton of risk in that space. I don't like it. I don't like advisors doing that. So this a little bit allows us to scale and reduce risk and I [48:25] JD: think bring it in, bring it in house where you can kind of look over some of the details. [48:30] Chad: I have to say to pick on that strategy a bit when I look at that marketplace sub 2 million kind of clients you're typically working with are probably closely held businesses. Business is making significant money and I look at the capabilities of a bundled solution through Veswell. They can't really dial up the tax efficiency and the customized design. JD doesn't like to paint third party administrators into that corner. But we know that those solutions are about efficiency. And I have to imagine you're leaving a lot on the table for those clients. [49:04] JD: Chad. [49:04] Chad: Dialing up the efficiency. [49:05] JD: Chad. Hang on, Jamie, hang on. You know I agree with you in theory because I, and I love that you want to set up a cross tested plan for a small business and customize a benefit the owner. But. Well, I'm going to say this a lot on the show. I apologize, I'm like a Guideline fanboy now. But Guideline has sold 40,000 plans in eight years and they're selling Safe Harbor Matches, bro. [49:28] Chad: Does that mean it's right for this specific for these clients though? [49:32] JD: Sorry. [49:33] Jamie Hopkins: Well so that's a really good point and I think that in my counter to that is the reason why we don't have a closed system there. Right. So if somebody says hey look, you gotta. The business owner wants to maximize their tax advantages or the three partners one too. That's why you'll call up a census and say hey a census. Run us a different projection. [49:50] JD: I just threw up on my keyboard. I literally, I literally just threw up. [49:55] Jamie Hopkins: They're down the road from me. I built calculators from the day. It's fine. But you could you. [49:59] Chad: 70 of those plans are going to be out of compliance in two years. Yeah, but that's good, that's good to hear and I appreciate that that it's not, you know, you're not saying one solution fits but let's not be naive, Jamie. Your folks are going to be comfortable with that solution, they're never going to address the fact that, oh, we could, we could create more tax efficiency. We could look at a combination plan. We could do these things because they're not interested necessarily in the 401k side of things is the private wealth. This is a byproduct of that. [50:31] Jamie Hopkins: Yeah. And you know, I think the, you know, look, there's, I think if you go down the route of is it the most optimal thing that's ever built is not also reality. Most people, even business owners, don't want the most optimal plan ever built because even some of the really good ones you've probably designed, there's probably a slightly more optimal one that could be built out there. [50:51] JD: Jamie, I love. You're hurting Chad's feelings, but I love you. [50:55] Chad: No, I mean, that's, that's very true. And the dynamics of the census change every year. And we, we could have done something slightly different in knowing this, but I guess my point would be how many dollars, tax savings dollars are being stepped over if that conversation's not happening? And I know in the bundled world, and I know in the guideline world, and I know in the vestwell world, those aren't happening. It is about efficiency. We can onboard a plan in six days, onboard a plan in six hours. [51:21] JD: I could, I could be the optimist here and say, what great fish in a barrel for the next six, seven, ten years. Like those 40,000 plans, a guideline, all the plans that those other vendors you mentioned, those are going to be great clients to go find and talk to and say, hey, by the way, that was really cool that you got set up with this disruptor and you got set up in five minutes or less. But guess what? To your point, Chad, you've been stepping over tax savings for six years. I could have saved you fucking $250,000 in the last six years if you wouldn't have gone to those idiots in the the first place. [51:59] Jamie Hopkins: So, and like, let's go to this one too. It's a, it's a, you know, we talk about something tangential in this, but, you know, target date funds are actually, you know, if you truly are an investment specialist, they're terrible, right? Like, they're not efficient, they're not good ways to manage money, but they've allowed people in mass to move money in a better way than managing it themselves. And to some degree, I think the benefit of the guidelines and vest balls the world is you get people started saving and you get a plan in place and it's actually a lot easier to move a business owner from. Let's update a plan to be more efficient than to launch a plan. [52:37] JD: Love it. [52:38] Jamie Hopkins: Modifying plans actually once they're up is not super hard to convince. [52:42] Chad: My only counter there, I'm not disagreeing, but my counter there Jamie would be okay. Very true. Four years ago, five years ago, three years ago, two years ago. There's tax credits you just avoided in conversation in these early years that they're going to miss. Now. Do it right, you could have saved them 50, 60 thousand dollars in tax credits. [53:02] JD: I'll jump on Chad's bandwagon and say, look, if you're gonna finally get that small business's attention and you're gonna finally get them to sit down and make a decision, why not just do it right? You know, like, like you made, you got the hard work, you got them in the room, they're willing to like do something. So now let's, let's do it the right way. That's what my old granddaddy taught me. You measure twice and you cut once. You know, don't it up. I just setting it up. [53:28] Chad: I'll give you and Jamie, this is not true to you, but I'll just give you an example of the, the walk that we are in every day. So I met with a prospect today. Good business out of New York, small company, probably 15 people. Independent contractors of the the rest of the flood. And we finished our consultation and she's like, this was awesome. Not only did I enjoy it, but I learned why it it. There needs to be some thought into what we're creating. And her response back into why this was awesome is because on the alternative side, the other groups came in and said, oh, you need a plan for hiring retention. Great, let's set it up right now. We'll have something set up in the next week and a half and you can start saving. They have 70% of their employees are highly comped. Nobody bothered to talk to them about testing. And so they could have easily set up something that would have blown up on them. And that is my fear. When we hear and it's not you, I know that I'm painting you into a corner, but that's what we continue to hear. It's like we're gonna, it's gonna be Veswell. It's gonna be guideline. It's gonna be so easy and simple. But there's no real consultation there. [54:32] Jamie Hopkins: No, it's a and look like I, I, I don't disagree with that. And I think whenever I get the scale on something, it's a little bit different. But what I will say is it's part of the reason that we built the team. And so we, we have is like best. Well, we've got a middle tier where our team can run it. And then we actually have. We call retirement specialists. So we've got about six retirement specialists that will come in and design the plans. And we're open. We're totally open architecture on that. We can use anybody we want. Right. And so one of the benefits is like in those cases, if that actually goes through our advanced solution team correctly, which is we actually have a single submission case file. So you actually submit that in and experts look at it and then they're supposed to piece it off. So if they saw, hey, we've got highly compensated, that would, that should go to the internal team then to review it and wouldn't go to Veswell even if that was a million dollar plan. Now is that a perfect system? No. People still have to review it. If they didn't ask the right questions, it doesn't go there. [55:32] Chad: But it is a little step above though. [55:34] JD: Yeah, yeah, that's. [55:36] Jamie Hopkins: That's not super normal out there in the world. Right. But the fun thing about that is like we had one that since we launched Veswell that came in and actually they're looking at a cash balance plan instead. The advisor was like, hey, let's use the Veswell one. And it was a bunch of partners and they really probably shouldn't run a 401k and they're looking at a cash balance because I think even in the 199 cap a stuff in that one that might come into play where they might be able to pull down their split. You know, they're a dentist org and it. That might be the best one for them that you can catch some of that. It's not perfect. Yeah, but. [56:12] Chad: No, but that's a huge step above what anybody else I'm seeing is doing there. [56:17] JD: So Jamie's got that ability to, to, to pivot and kind of talk about how they can customize. I didn't do that on purpose, but the. What I like about Jamie is and I didn't expect this from him, he's got a bit of that guideline chief executive officer too, where he doesn't. He's being polite today, but he understands scalability and like doing things in mass. And sometimes I know you know this, Chad, but when you want to fish with a net, you're going to catch some fish that you didn't want to catch, you know, and so you're going to have some collateral damage to what you're doing. But. But if you. But if you can still, I want to say, sell 40,000 plans, you know, quoting guideline. But. But I could also say, like, if you want to help 20,000 companies in spite of selling 40,000, by doing it the right way, like, there's kind of a greater good there in some sense. [57:16] Chad: And to Rob's point, and I really [57:19] JD: think our industry, and I talked about this a few weeks ago, I'm picking on everyone in our industry, this 401k specific industry. We need to get out of our rut of this. Like, customization is the only answer, and it's one on one, and it's white glove. And we know what we're doing, and we're experts because that's an old dying breed. And there's a lot of companies out there now that understand scalability and kind of getting to the masses more. And they're going to kick the shit out of us over and over and over again through this whole secure 2.0 thing. So wake up, people. Wake up. All right, we're gonna vote for chapter champion, and I'm gonna let Justin go first. Take it away. It's been a slow night. [58:03] Jamie Hopkins: I mean, yeah, there's still some. [58:06] Justin: Some standouts for sure. Kushner got me with the Rob Carson could do Undercover Boss and then also the Utah gimme, too. [58:14] Chad: Oh, that was him for Utah. Give me two. [58:16] Justin: Yeah, yeah. [58:17] JD: Would you go Kush? Yeah. [58:19] Justin: Relax, Hacker. You were a good showing. [58:22] JD: All right, he's either gonna surfer ski, it's Kush. All right, Chad, who are you voting for? [58:28] Chad: Kush had me as well with the Utah. Give me two. But I'm going hack. It was an excellent night. Let's let them battle a battle of [58:35] JD: the greatest of all times right now. Okay? Here. Ah. I'll let you go next, Jamie. [58:44] Jamie Hopkins: I'm going with Kush because Kush also I, you know, knew that Ryan Carson had a jet, so that's. That's pretty deep level knowledge. [58:52] JD: Let's set it up then, shall we? Let's set up the head to head. Two. Two rams on the side of a hill coming at each other full speed. Justin, you help me. I don't have rovi. What? You say the sentence and Hack and Kush have to finish it. Finish it and we'll pick a winner. [59:15] Justin: Oh, you know I'm shitty at this on the spot. [59:17] Chad: Come on, Justin. What is. What does Billy always Say Bill who? [59:23] Justin: Billy who? [59:23] Chad: My nickname in college was. [59:27] Justin: Oh, that's a good one. [59:28] JD: Yeah. [59:28] Justin: My nickname in college was. There you go. [59:30] JD: For each of them. Okay. Better. It is my nickname. And college was Kush and Hackler for the win. And guys, you can take a little bit of time. You don't have to come out right away. [59:46] Chad: Jd, I was gonna say, while they write that, to. To your and Jamie's point, I know I'm naive in the narrowness of what I'm trying to do in these customizations. And scale is incredible. And scale is needed, and scale is going to help the coverage, all of these things. I just love what Jamie said earlier in. We have scale, but we're going to try to pick the fish that need something a little different. The ones that could use a little more custom. That's what I. I just love to hear that it's not everything fits here. And if everything does fit here, hey, at least we're doing what's right for probably 80% of the groups, and we're not doing anything wrong for the other 20% that could just maybe use a little extra love. But at least we're doing something right for all of them. [1:00:28] JD: Remember? [1:00:28] Chad: And the 80% are getting what they remember. [1:00:30] JD: Chad, when I used to tell you, like, pretty early on your career, you would come because you're so smart, you would go in there and really, like, build these great designs based on a census for someone and their objectives. And I would pull you aside and I'd say, there's. There's really good smart intelligent plan design. And then there's also, like, what can the client understand and effectively execute in year two, your three, year four, and your five, so you can go all Albert Einstein and really design something. [1:00:59] Chad: You know, that's not what I'm talking about, but yes, I know. [1:01:02] JD: It's Hackler. Have a submission. [1:01:06] Chad: There we go. [1:01:07] JD: Because that would do some stupid. When Trump Hackler. We don't use that reference to the mentally challenged people anymore. Kushner, the herdsman. Because of my affinity for calorically challenged. Geez. Okay, guys, this is a. This is a family friendly show. Jesus Christ. [1:01:32] Chad: Well, yeah. [1:01:34] Jamie Hopkins: All right, well, so can I have one more thing before we go? Because, you know, I. I want to get back to this other part because we kind of glossed over it. We have. Because, you know, part of it is I actually agree with almost everything you said about not getting to this point where you have box solutions for everybody. People. I. I do think people also want care factor and trust and that they're heard. And so I do worry about sending box solutions out to the world because the whole wealth management side was that we do listen to, we do list, you know, hear you and it's not, you know, cookie cutter for everybody that whatever you care about is the design and planning. And so planning centric should flow over. So the one firm, you'll see it in about two weeks. You know, it closes in about two weeks. But they're a fantastic group. You guys actually probably know them. I actually know that the owner actually has messaged me saying he wants to link to the show since I've been on the show here. So he knows I'm on. But they're awesome. And that's going to bring us just that more ability to design more custom stuff. That's what they do today. Right? That's their business model. So like, why are we bringing that in? So we have that too. And the more I can add to that space with the other one lessons, that lessens the risk that we're going to end up with people who are losing tax benefits having the wrong plan design in place. And yeah, I think that's super important. So I 100 agree with you. [1:02:58] JD: Jamie, Come on, Jamie. You have to pick a team, man. You got to pick a team. Shirts are scamming. You can't have both yet you're saying yes to everything. I'm kidding. You can, you can do that in business. That's the beauty of being in business. You can offer multiple products and multiple clients. So it's just fine. [1:03:13] Jamie Hopkins: Well, somebody was against state plans. Yeah, I'd rather design plans for people than have state plans. So I'm on, I'm against that. And I don't like catch ups, so I like. They don't like two things. Okay. No catch up provisions, no state plans. [1:03:26] JD: I love me some state plans for obvious reasons, but okay, the winner. [1:03:32] Jamie Hopkins: Ah, [1:03:34] JD: I'm gonna. I'm basically gonna go with Kush, only because we already owe Hackler like a really big prize, so. [1:03:42] Jamie Hopkins: Oh yeah, we did talk him for now. [1:03:43] JD: So we'll celebrate Kush. But those were both equally politically incorrect statements and I, and I do not stand behind either one of them. But I congratulate you for your efforts and your chat bar championism. So Kush, you are the winner of Chatbot Champion. Last show's winner was Danielle, but she wouldn't reply to my text or my email, so I didn't know she's home. So I didn't want to send her 20 pizzas. Or anything without her being home. But we'll catch up on her. I'm sure she'll be reaching out to me based on some of my comments tonight on smart a little bit. Housekeeping. As I mentioned in the pre show, if you didn't see our live show From Arizona, Scottsdale, Arizona at the FI360 Broadridge National Conference, it is up@retireholics.com and we had. We were honored to have special guests Fred Reich and Cindy Dash on stage with us. And I thought it was a really fun, great show with a lot of good insights. So please check that out. We will be in Kansas city for the One Digital Evolve 2023 conference just in like 10 days from June 10th to the 12th. So we are all flying out to Kansas City. Yeehaw. I guess Chad's gonna drive his. His at 4 from his house there. There he is and his Wranglers. It won't be far for Chad, but we will be there. And we've got some great. We're gonna do some recorded shows there and I, I haven't like confirmed or inked, but some pretty big guests, ones that we've never had before and ones that I'm not so certain we were gonna have. Cross your fingers. Thinking a census chief executive officer and I'm thinking the big man at the American Retirement Association. Putting my cart in front of my horse here. But they've both been talking to me and I think maybe we can. So that'll be fun. And speaking of great guests, the next show that we have is the recently former president at Voya. Drum roll. Charlie Nelson. So what better way to get an old CEO on the show but one that's just moved from that position, right? Oh, yep. I'll drink for that. And everybody, wait till you see the guests we got lined up this summer. I would challenge y' all that this is the best lineup we've ever had on this show. This summer is gonna be off the charts, dope af. And I'll drink twice for the one before that one. Jamie, [1:06:29] Jamie Hopkins: look, it only goes up from here. That's fine. [1:06:31] JD: God damn them. I'm drinking Pendleton whiskey. It's. It's not good. Jamie, thank you so much for spending some time with us here. I know you're a busy man speaking all across the country. I really appreciate you bringing the blazer and the T shirt to the retireholic set. It means the world to us. You impressed? Not that I. I knew you're going to be good, but you're very good. You know your got great insights and our audience was the better for listening to you. So thanks for being here with us. [1:07:06] Jamie Hopkins: No, thank you, everybody. The chat chat group was awesome. So thanks for. For making this lively and fun. [1:07:11] JD: They always are. And thank you to the chat bar for showing up. Brandon had some technical difficulties, but you know, that's Brandon's middle name these days. Motherfucker. And Justin, I love you. Thanks for taking care of Roby. Chad. I know you've been supporting Roby. It'll be good to see him back. We can all give him a big hug and. Yeah, Retire Hogs community 401k community. Love you. Have a great week. We'll see you next time.