In-Plan Annuities & Guaranteed Income | Michelle Richter-Gordon

[0:00] JD: I got my iPad. I got. And then I have my phone so I can Google the words that Michelle's using tonight. I know what they are. [0:10] Chad: Why don't you show everybody what you're drinking? [0:11] Justin: That means, [0:15] Chad: what's your penalty drink, Mark? It'll bring back memories for the guys. [0:18] Mark: Oh, yeah. I've never had. I found it in Chad's cabinet. Oh, nickel. [0:25] Justin: God, that was terrible. [0:27] Chad: A spicy pickle vodka. [0:44] JD: All right, we're going straight into headlines. The first one is a public service announcement from me to you, and it's totally true. I just discovered this about 10 minutes ago. I ran out of deodorant about a week ago, and I thought, yeah, I'll be fine. You know, Like, I feel like I kind of have a clean vessel of a body. I'm in the ocean all the time. Not true. It's pretty fucking bad, bro. Like, real bad. And so I'm definitely going to need to make a target run sometime. [1:20] Justin: How does one run out of deodorant? [1:23] JD: You keep. You keep going. And eventually, that little film on the thing. Well, I know, but you can start [1:28] Justin: seeing it, can't you? Be like, that's a reminder. Go get more deodorant. [1:32] Mark: Justin, it's rich. People think that it just shows up, right? [1:37] JD: You think I've actually buy my own deodorant? That doesn't happen. [1:40] Mark: Hold on. Let's just take a really quick ranger here. Jd what kind of deodorant do you use? [1:46] JD: Whatever ends up on my sink. I think it's a classic Old Spice kind of thing, you know, Definitely, like, the clear, you know, toxic ones versus the. The white thing, you know? Like, I. Okay, let's go straight to Bobby Bonilla. Bonilla. Bobby Bonilla has one heck of a deferred comp plan. Read this article. I don't know where, because it's been so long, I'm not preparing. Oh, it was on the national association of Plan Advisors. He had a deal with the Mets that they were gonna have to pay him. [2:26] Justin: What was it here, like, 5.8 million? [2:29] JD: That's it. Six million? [2:34] Justin: Yeah. [2:34] Mark: I was like, webby knows the specs. It's 5.9. [2:37] JD: 5.9? Yeah. 5.9 million. And instead they worked on a deal to just pay him for the next 25 years with interest. And he's getting about a million bucks a year. And I was like, wow. And what's really cool is, I guess the New York Mets kind of owner. He tweets it out, calls it Bobby Bonilla day. Like, hey, we're sending him another million bucks this year. But my first thought was like, what's the logic in that deal? Like, why don't they just give him the 5.9 million? And apparently they thought, the Mets, that they could invest this money instead of giving it to Bobby and keep it in their own kind of rip and invest it, make a ton of money. Well, guess who they were investing that money with? [3:21] Mark: Robe guy. [3:22] Chad: Oh, Bernie. Go, Bernie, go. [3:25] JD: Actual Mr. Madoff was their investor, so it didn't work out well for them. But they still obviously have their commitment to Bobby. And apparently he's got some other deferred comp as well. But you know, when pop culture then diagrams with 401k you've got for for [3:45] Chad: us sports nerds, JD, there's more behind it than just all that too, because you can avoid salary cap by pushing it to future years and pushing out these payments and creating room and you think your team's ready to win. And there was some of that in this Mets deal. [3:58] Mark: Wait, Bobby. [4:00] Justin: Bobby retired in Florida too, so there's no state income tax on it. [4:04] JD: Nice. But Chad, way to bring some more nerdy details to it. Today we're not going to do a mid trow. We're not going to do an outro. We're going to do what's called an intro. And Justin is going to intro our two guests. And if you know out there in chat bar, then you know I won't explain what you need to do. Take it away, Justin. [4:25] Justin: Michelle is renowned retirement plan expert with a wealth of knowledge and 401k plans and intricacies of annuities. Her insights are highly sought after in the industry and we can't wait to hear her perspective on the current landscape. Mark, on the other hand, brings unique expertise in financial regulations and retirement plan administration. His experience in navigating the complexities of retirement plans will surely shed light on crucial topics that impact us all. Together they hold a collective IQ of 463. So the next time you strike up a conversation, don't be afraid to do as I once did and ask yourself, how in the world was I the fastest swimmer out of my pops? Whistling Dixie? The co founders of Nudity Research and Consulting, Michelle Richter and Mark Chamberlain. [5:11] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Except I'm Michelle Richter Gordon now because I got married in February. But that's okay. Nobody smiled. [5:18] Chad: Jesus. [5:19] Justin: Yeah, that was hard to get through, but I had to do it. [5:21] Michelle Richter-Gordon: I saw, I saw JD's well chat, chat, chat. The thing with three initials after it would never have noticed Right. That was a great material. Would have my old. [5:33] JD: Laughs. That's too bad. That's too bad. Justin. I was kind of excited to see what you would have done, so I gave you a 2.3. But whatever. [5:42] Justin: That's okay. That's averages. [5:46] JD: There's a Plan Advisor magazine article on pooled employer plans. I like to title it Pooled Experts say Pooled employer Plans Suck Shit. That's not the actual. That's not the actual title, but that's what I imagine it to be. There's. They got some pretty smart people on there talking about pooled employer plans. Mr. Rob Smith, by the way, who. Rob Smith joins the crew of people who I've asked to be on the show and told me to fuck off, basically. Yeah. [6:24] Mark: No, he didn't. [6:26] JD: He's saying. [6:27] Mark: Hold on. Pause, show, pause, show, pause. Important, important thing. [6:31] JD: Brandon. [6:31] Mark: I can't get buttons. Just an FYI. Anyways, go on. Wow. [6:35] JD: Brandon enjoys technical Fix it. Basically what he's saying is, hey, it's kind of slowed down the whole pooled plan provider thing. And I kind of want to get Michelle and Mark's kind of input here. I'm being the mean guy in the pooled employer plan space right now. But I love how we measure pooled employer plan success. At least we did out of the GATES and in 2022. And now this is part of this article is about. Is. Is the establishment of a pooled plan provider. Like anybody on the right, I could go out and set up a plan. It doesn't mean that. That pooled employer plans are succeeding just because you're setting up a pooled plan provider. Am I wrong? [7:16] Michelle Richter-Gordon: No. [7:17] JD: Yeah. Well, apparently that's falling off. And a lot of companies that set these things up are realizing, oh, we're not getting to any kind of scale. Not that I think scale is even a real thing. It's imaginary for them, but. And now maybe we're going to need to pivot and merge with someone else. Get out of this gig. Who knows what. Further proof. And I didn't write this article. Pooled employer plans are sucking shit, people. They just are. We'll move on because we got a lot to cover. Unless anyone wants to challenge me or. Or, you know, DeSenso does and feel differently. The sense has come along. He understands. [8:00] Mark: I don't want to challenge you. I just want to get to what Michelle and Mark are here talking about. I'm just excited. [8:05] JD: So I don't have that on the agenda today, so. Oh, okay. [8:08] Mark: Cool. [8:13] JD: What the f. I'll drink for that. I just, I'd already said it too many times. Is an osaic. You have a very deep vocabulary. Michelle. Do you know what an OSAIC is? [8:28] Michelle Richter-Gordon: No. Other than it's the new name of. [8:32] Mark: Yeah, it's a. It's a mosaic without the. [8:36] JD: I think you're right. I think you're right, Roby. [8:38] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Right. [8:39] JD: Advisor Group. Who are. [8:41] Justin: Why. [8:42] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Why without the N? [8:44] JD: Well, it sounds. [8:45] Mark: It's way cooler. Just take any word, remove a letter. So much better. [8:50] JD: Nailed it. Nailed it. [8:53] Mark: Yeah. [8:53] JD: They were kind enough to have us on stage for their conference and I caught wind that this rebranding was going to happen. And you know me, I've got a bit of a. Of an artsy background here. So I wanted to. I was curious what it looked like. And you know me too. I love to talk. Right. I think they did a phenomenal job. So check it out. If you get a chance, you can go to osaic.com. there's a great little video out there that kind of shows the rebranding. They even talked to the firm that did it. The firm's name is Sullivan. And here's what I think. They went with this cool, modern, edgy kind of color palette. It's these like kind of off basic colors, almost pastely, if you will. And then they've got this really simple logo. Yeah, I'm giving a full compliment. And they had this great kind of music behind it. And if you look at it, I think what you're going to feel is not old school financial services, broker, dealer. And instead you're going to feel new, exciting, upstart financial services company for everybody. The young, the wealthy, the not so wealthy. And I think that that's going to be a benefit to the advisors that are under their umbrella as well as the prospective clients they have in the current clients. So anyway, I just think it was a great job. Check it out. Advisor Group is no longer Advisor Group. It is now Mosaic, which is not a real world. Robey. Nailed it. They just came up with one and apparently that's something you can do. I'm okay with it. Thumbs up chat bar. Let us know what you think. Okay, last headline before we do it. Mark wanted to do. There's a new strategy for retirement worth taking a look at. This dude in Poway, California, not far from here. He solved the problem, I think. I don't think we need guaranteed income, Mark, Michelle, anything like it. All you need to do is if your mom dies, you pretend to be her and, and, and take Her Social Security money for 30 years. You take her house for Social Security, you sign all her paperwork. You pretend that that mom's still alive. Said her mom. Is it his mom or his grandma? His mom. Mom. 800 is north of $800,000 that this. This dude pulled off. Well, I shouldn't say he pulled it off because he didn't pull it. Obviously going to go to jail. [11:17] Chad: I mean, he lived great for 30 years. Not working. [11:20] JD: That works, right? [11:21] Michelle Richter-Gordon: How old did they think she was? [11:23] Chad: Well, he's only 57. [11:25] JD: Oh. And she's been dead for a long time. She died. [11:28] Mark: She died overseas, too. Which is, I think in my mind, as someone who's just recently gone through this, I could be doing the same thing right now. [11:37] JD: Right. [11:37] Mark: So it seems pretty. [11:39] JD: Mark, you should look into it. [11:41] Mark: Simple. [11:42] JD: Oh, okay. [11:44] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Mark. [11:45] JD: Hey. Hey, jd. [11:46] Mark: I retired. [11:48] JD: Nice, Mark. Just like Michelle and Mark have started. I mean, it's not a new venture. It's kind of spin off of what they're doing. We're going to talk about it. I think you and I should get in the gig of consulting. But we consult people on these illegal schemes to, like, help out the retirement. There's no one in that space. And we could really help people kind of work the system. It might be a great. I think we'd be a good team for that. [12:14] Chad: I definitely think there are people that are in that space, jd. [12:19] Mark: Yeah. Their identity thieves. Yeah. [12:21] Speaker F: Yeah. [12:22] JD: Maybe you're right, Chad. [12:23] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Maybe you're right. [12:23] JD: I'm sure they're doing well. [12:24] Mark: But. No, Chad, there's no one consulting them, though. They're doing it all wrong. [12:28] Chad: Okay, okay. [12:30] JD: The. Oh, the. I don't want to say the acronym. The Annuity and Research Consulting. I get that. Right. [12:41] Mark: You should have really known that. [12:43] JD: Okay, I Got It Right. I Got It Right has a new E guide that's. [12:51] Mark: Yeah, I don't have buttons. [12:54] JD: Also known as Michelle and Mark's New Venture. I believe your press releases, like, came out today. One of them's here on all the different media things. So go ahead. This is your one moment in the show to kind of pimp and promote what you're doing. What is this? Why is it needed? Tell us what you're doing. [13:16] Michelle Richter-Gordon: I'd love to let Mark answer that while I first read a disclosure. Because I also represent. [13:27] JD: Sorry. Drum roll. First, Michelle is going to read an exciting disclosure. Everybody, everybody. While she reads her disclosure, hold your beverage to your mouth and drink for as long as she does it. Okay? Ready? Michelle, you got. No, you can't Drink, Michelle, you have to give. [13:45] Michelle Richter-Gordon: I understand. I just took a sip. Dude, relax. I also am the executive director of the Institutional Retirement Income Council, which advocates for income to be derived from the defined contribution space. The views that I'm representing today are my own, and they do not necessarily represent the views of the Institutional Retirement Income Council or its members. Mark, take it away, please. [14:11] Mark: Okay, sure. [14:12] Chad: Why not? [14:14] JD: That was long. [14:15] Michelle Richter-Gordon: It did not say rope guy. [14:16] JD: Chad. [14:17] Mark: You did. [14:17] Michelle Richter-Gordon: That's your name. [14:20] Chad: I was interested. Jd. [14:22] JD: All right, Mark, take it away. I guess you bear the burden of explaining what you're doing with this new release. Let us know. [14:29] Speaker F: Okay, thank you. Okay, so I'm gonna give credit to an actual plan advisor for this. I'm not gonna take credit. [14:37] JD: We like that. [14:38] Speaker F: We. When Michelle and I were first working together, we wrote a paper and we ran it by a group of actual plan advisors because we figured, why not talk to people that know what they're doing with real clients and, you know, stay away from all this theory stuff for a while. And one of the aha moments we had was when he came back and said, you know, there's all this energy around bringing annuities inside plans, and everybody's trying to figure out how to turn the lock, what's going to be the key that'll turn the lock and the holy Grail. And he said, I just want to know, for my participants that are retiring this year, what should we be telling them? Because that's the triage that needs to be done, you know, meaning that they're. [15:32] JD: They're already at the end game here [15:34] Speaker F: this year and next year. Right. It's not about a deferred annuity that somebody's going to get, you know, defaulted into when they're 25 years old. It's. What are we doing right now for the people who are retiring this year? What can we offer them? And so that's the. That's the deficits for this. [15:50] JD: Does this coincide with. And I think it does. I'm just setting you up here. The. The fact that on everyone's foreign case statements now they're going to be seeing what their balance would equate to in terms of a guaranteed income. Brandon, if you could, for the audience, I pulled a statement from our plan. There's no one's name on it or anything, but I went to see, like, what is this? [16:15] Mark: You use mine, didn't you? [16:18] JD: And. And sure enough, there it is. There's. There's a statement in some numbers where it's converting the balance into a Monthly stream of income. Thanks, Brandon. It's harder. Oh, thanks. There you go. So there's just south of 340k and this participant, if they take a single life annuity. And by the way, this is on page, I don't know, seven or eight after it showed their return and their investments. And it's kind of towards the end and it says, look, you can get about 2 grand per month on this 340k. This will obviously be based on their age and life expectancy and whatnot. All the little fine prints below. Now, correct me if I'm wrong. Are you trying to help the person that's reading this and. Or the advisor or plan sponsor that's counseling them and give them some more information? It is. [17:09] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Thank you. I mean, I know it's going to get worse from here, but possibly a better layup. Yeah, that's exactly right. So this is the second year in which the Department of Labor's lifetime income illustration requirement has appeared on second quarter statements. And last year, following the requirement by the say that word setting every community up for Retirement Enhancement Act. [17:41] Mark: Wow. [17:43] Michelle Richter-Gordon: And so in the first year after which it occurred, I got a lot of calls from advisors who were like, what am I supposed to do with this? Like, how am I supposed to explain this? How's a person supposed to get this? Like, because most of the time this, this calculation is derived from how you calculate payout rates for a single premium immediate annuity, which is the simplest form of. [18:11] JD: I think that's. You guys understand this stuff more than we do. We're not annuity experts. Do you think that that's a fair methodology that they're using to represent that number? [18:23] Michelle Richter-Gordon: I think there are challenges that the industry has raised, one of which is that for young people, this number can be meaningless because it does not account for either account growth or additional contributions. So it can be demotivating. [18:39] JD: That's why. Yeah, you got what you got, bro. Like, you don't have that money yet. [18:43] Michelle Richter-Gordon: I would say one other material challenge here that you know, Mark and I have worked a lot with Zvi Bodhi on, is our belief that it should include inflation adjustment in the pricing methodology. It does not. So this is a nominal single premium immediate annuity translation. And that is the form of product that pays the least compensation to a financial professional. And as such, it is the redheaded stepchild of the financial services community. Within the annuity space, it is perhaps 3% of sales. And yet it is what one experiences when one receives a defined benefit plan and when a Defined benefit plan closes out into a pension risk transfer transaction. The form of product that is used for that is not a deferred indexed annuity. It is, in fact, a single premium immediate annuity. So it's really, you know, and the Department of Labor settled on an annuity based calculation for a reason, because it is guaranteed. Because there are so many Americans who need their basic expenses covered with guaranteed sources in retirement, that the Department of Labor felt it imperative, despite substantial lobbying by both the insurance industry and the asset management industry, to go with a calculation that was based on this form of annuity. So our view is that it's hard to access them because financial professionals don't want to sell them. And so when participants need guidance about, how do I understand this number? How do I get this thing? Last year, for me, it was horrible to not have a place that I could point people to and say, you know, here is the, you know, dispassionate, objective source where you can get more information about, what does this mean? Why does it matter to me? What do the academics think and where do I get it? And what questions do I ask when I try to get it? So that's what our guys. [20:49] JD: It's not even a. It's not an offering of a product in any way. The government's just doing it to kind of show you, like, hey, this is what your money's worth, where that kind of overlaps with what y' all are focused on, which is actually giving these types of solutions to participants and plans. Michelle, I asked if you thought it was a good, a good solution. And everybody out there, buckle up. Okay? When Michelle speaks, it's. For me, it's a great opportunity to really pay attention to every word throughout the sentence and the paragraph, because everything she says she's thinking about is well thought through. And you kind of explained all the, the pros, the cons, the ups, the downs, what's going on, and I appreciate that. And you're also teaching me to listen more when people talk, because if I don't pay attention to you, I'm not going to understand a single word that comes out of your mouth. [21:40] Mark: I. The whole time she was talking, I let her. [21:44] JD: I didn't understand a one word you said. [21:46] Mark: I sleep into Google Translate and then I hit Translate and it said, this is way over your head. And so I'm screwed. [21:55] JD: No, you. [21:56] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Mark is here. Mark speaks English. [22:00] JD: Mark, let me ask you. I mean, this is the cliche question here. [22:04] Mark: Hold on. You're asking the other Mark, right? [22:07] JD: Yeah. [22:07] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Sorry, guys. [22:09] Mark: We have to make sure. [22:10] JD: Okay, okay, okay. This is the classic question, but I think it's relevant, I think it's true, and I think probably the chat bar stinking it. This is on page seven. When I open up my statement, I want to see like what my balance is. And maybe if I'm a little bit nerdy, I look down to see my rate of return, you know, year to date or for the last year or five years or whatever. Maybe I even look down a little further and remind myself where my investments are. You know, I forgot that I'm in The standard employers 500 index or something. But surely I'm not going to page seven to look at this silly little fucking thing, am I? [22:53] Speaker F: Is that a question? [22:55] Mark: Yeah. [22:57] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Come answer my phone from the advisors calling asking what am I supposed to do about this? And then tell me, [23:08] Speaker F: I'm clearly the oldest guy on this panel today to tell you that as you approach 62 years old, things change dramatically. So when you're a little bit older and you're sneaking up on that day, when you're going to flip the switch and parachute out of full time retirement or full time employment into retirement, you're going to start paying attention to that number. [23:30] JD: You're going to pay attention to page [23:32] Speaker F: 7, pay attention to that number because you know that the accumulation stage is almost over. [23:38] Chad: I think you're going to pay attention [23:39] JD: to that number as the balance mark. But it doesn't mean you're going to go to page seven to read this. What it annuitizes as like, well, I'm guessing I don't have a study on this. [23:52] Speaker F: All I can tell you is that it feels different the closer you get to that date. [23:57] JD: And so, you know, I'm 52 years old. It's not like I'm 36. So it's like, you know, I started thinking about that too, but I'm just talking about the general population. I'm just curious if you guys feel like, oh, this is a phenomenal thing, that this lands on a statement once a year. Or is it? No, not that big of a deal and there's a bigger push for the industry. Go ahead, John. [24:15] Chad: J.D. people are going to learn, first off, the average American that you're, that you're talking about, they don't know what 80,000 converts to. They live paycheck to paycheck. They live month to month. They know what their monthly mortgage cost is. They usually don't know what their annual mortgage cost is. And so they're looking for a month to Month representation of what they're getting. And when they learn that it's page seven that's pro, they're probably going to skip past the beginning and get to get to seven. And so what's going to happen? The record keepers are then going to push it to page one. Record keepers always say, here's the five things that they need to see right when they open their statement. That's going to be one of those five within the next year and a half. [24:52] Mark: I thought that's what J.D. was getting at. I thought he was trying to say, look, why did they put this. Try to shove it so far back? Why isn't this more open? [25:02] Chad: And that's my point. It will be. [25:04] Speaker F: Oh, I misunderstood the question. [25:06] JD: Sorry. [25:06] Mark: No, no. I'm not sure JD had a question there. [25:09] JD: Honestly, I did. But let me ask. Can I ask you. You guys this, and, and not our guest, but to Roby, Chad, Justin and the chat bar. When I showed you that balance of, I forgot 300 and something, were you surprised to. Thanks, Brandon. 3. [25:26] Mark: I was really surprised you showed my statement. That's all I can say. [25:28] JD: Were you surprised on the 2K per month and, and surprising the higher the low. On the higher the low. [25:36] Mark: No. No. [25:37] JD: You thought it was low, Robey. Yeah, Chad. [25:40] Chad: I don't know if I had a good idea of what it should be, but my initial thought was, yeah, that's. That's fairly low. [25:47] JD: You thought low chat bar. I. I looked at it and I knew that a new. I didn't know. I. I had the inclination that annuities are expensive. And so I didn't know how much 340k bought you. I didn't. I kind of looked at $24,000 a year and thought, okay, shit, like, throw that with your Social Security and someone who's got 340k, like, not so bad, they can kind of get by on that. [26:13] Mark: Justin Bath said it was low, too. [26:16] Justin: I thought it was. [26:17] JD: I mean, but jd, Chopper agree, Please, Chopper, let me know whether you thought it was low or high. Go ahead, John. [26:21] Chad: Well, I'm just. Again, I'm not an annuity expert, but when I think of 339,000 and I think of a lifetime payout, most average life expectancy is what, 87 now between [26:36] Justin: 77, it's dropped three years in the last. Since 2020. [26:39] JD: I think Covid played a role in that. Come on. [26:41] Speaker F: It did [26:44] Justin: show you the data, and [26:46] Chad: it doesn't seem way off in back end math. [26:49] JD: Okay. [26:49] Mark: Hey, again, I'm just coming at this From a really dumb perspective, I'm saying I see a big number there and a small one. [26:56] JD: Right? [26:56] Mark: I want them to be bigger. That's all I can say. I'm not doing the math. I'm not thinking of life. I'm just saying, like, that's what I thought. [27:02] JD: That's all. That's a good transition. Because these are just kind of pretend numbers, like showing you numbers. I think the real mission that Mark and Michelle are on now and I'd like to, I'd like to move to this is actual products and how we might deliver them in the foreign case. Am I, am I right? Like, this is your guys's passion. This is what you're working towards, right? [27:26] Michelle Richter-Gordon: We do not see the world through the lens of the product. We see the world through the lens of the service and the needs of the plan, the needs of the participant. [27:37] JD: You believe that guaranteed income will play a role. I think you also believe it should. But you can correct me if I'm wrong. In 401k plans. And you think there's a need for experts to counsel both advisors and plan sponsors as they make not only the decision to add them to their plan, but then if they decide, yes, we'll add one, well, which one will we add? And this has got to be a very complex area that most 4 1k pros have very little kind of background in. So did I cover that properly? This is what you believe in. [28:13] Michelle Richter-Gordon: It's true that we believe that we all. We do not believe. I will not let stand unchallenged the assertion that annuities are expensive. Inherently, it's false and it's perceived that way. Because what annuities are, are liability minimization vehicles. [28:33] Mark: And do you have an acronym for that? [28:40] Michelle Richter-Gordon: And so to provide that function costs more than does to not provide that function. And when you're observing the world through the lens of asset accumulation, which is the left side of the balance sheet, and what the government desires is retirement income, which is an income statement premise. What you need is the matching of assets and liabilities. [29:10] JD: Agree to that. I don't, I'm not going to debate you on. I'm not going to because I don't think there's a fair debate. I mean, Nevin was kind of popping off there in the chat bar. But I'm not going to disagree with you. He's kind of like my dad. My dad. My dad agrees with Nevin and that. My dad's like, look, I can figure this out on my own. You know, in retirement But Nevin and my dad are the exception to the rule. They're not the average. [29:33] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Okay, okay, whatever you say. Jd. I, to your previous point, it's really important. I mean I'll, I'll let it. I said my piece. But you know, when it comes to what Mark and my intention is, you're 100% right. Our perspective is that there are some people for whom guaranteed income for parts of their portfolio is needed or makes perfect sense. It's not the case for everyone. Right. [30:02] JD: I'm not trying to kiss you guys. I think a lot of people will need it and would want it. And I think that they. Even if it comes at a cost, we won't label that expensive to your earlier points, but it comes at a prudent, reasonable cost for what they're getting. That, that, that safety of putting your head on your pillow at night and knowing I'm going to get that two grand every month forever until I die is a wonderful tool in the retirement planning chapter of your life. Mark. What I'm getting from Michelle, from you guys is from Ark and what you're fuck. And what you're doing is that, is that you want to provide like an almost like an independent fiduciary role that would help people kind of understand this more. Can I. And you're not product pushing people. That doesn't seem to be your vibe. Like let's get involved with the product that we can put on these platforms. I'd love to ask you about Income America in a little bit, but I'll put that to the side. Are you concerned? Insurance companies are all over the place in terms of record keeping, right. Nationwide principal. I mean the list goes on and on. Right. Of these big insurance companies that do 401k record keeping, are they licking their chops right now to do what Michelle doesn't like and create some type of proprietary product where they can sell this and start to claw back some of those profits that they lost over the last decade of fee compression. Come on, let's get juicy, Mark. [31:31] Mark: Let's go baby. [31:32] Speaker F: Don't get me started. Well, I got to back up because there was a key piece of the puzzle that we missed on your first question. Is the amount you were looking at fair? And so that lifetime income illustration is broken into two components. The biggest component by far is the 10 year treasury rate. [31:54] JD: Right. [31:55] Speaker F: So if it looks low, blame the Fed. [31:59] JD: Right. Okay. [32:00] Speaker F: But that's the mark to market return [32:03] JD: for what they consider it is low. Even now in this kind of increasing interest rate environment. It's still pretty low, right? What's south of 4% or something? [32:11] Speaker F: Or 4% is a below market rate for, for a real return. You know, the 10 year treasury should be priced to yield above, well above inflation. That's the only way you really bring inflation down historically. So it continues to be manipulated and it's impossible for anybody to argue that. We've been in a free market economic environment ever since 2009. They haven't allowed interest rates to be set according to the market. They've manipulated the price of risk. And so all of this is cattywampus at this point it's hard to know what asset prices should be. And so the longer that goes on, the longer, the harder it's getting. [32:56] JD: I rogue guy, didn't understand a word you said. [32:59] Mark: No, I just heard a new one. I want to use Caddy. [33:03] JD: Hey. [33:04] Speaker F: Hey. [33:04] JD: I, I am picking up what you're putting down and I would love to talk about that more in the after show. But let me challenge you with this. Like I know you know this is true. Like hey Mark, those are the facts, bro. It's the world we live in. So unless you and Michelle think you're going to somehow change the fucking world, which I can tell you you're probably not, those are the rules of the game. So let's deal with those rules and let's solve the problem with them. You know, like we agree. [33:28] Speaker F: So it's, it's all about telling the truth about what are risk free income costs. All right, so the fact of the matter is the mark to market rates are what they are. If you are retiring today and you want to invest, I'm going to use the word invest even though the insurance people hate it. You want to invest part of your savings in a risk free return asset, what are you going to look at? Well the other thing the annuity brings to the table in addition to the 10 year treasury rate is the mortality credit, which means you're going to get a blended return that's above any other equivalent risk position because you got not only the risk free rate but you've also got a bump in terms of the mortality pool. [34:13] JD: The chapter seems to be freaking out over this. Risk free. And they are right. Like I'll jump on their bandwagon. Like we always still have what's, what's the actual securities term? We always still have the risk of the insurer. Right. Like, like if Prudential goes under then you're fucked. Right? [34:29] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Like, and thank you so much for raising that because from that I will give you the money quote for this show. [34:37] Mark: Go. [34:39] Michelle Richter-Gordon: So Mark and I agree wholeheartedly and we engage in a ten step process when we work with a plan or a plan advisor, a plan sponsor. Our processes goes through understanding what the needs and demographics of the plan are when an advisor needs the support of an outside fiduciary. Right. So one of the factors that we think is most important is creditworthiness of the insurance company. And it is absolutely not the case that the rating agencies have this right. Not close. And we receive information, financial information from a 37 year forensic accountant and certified fraud examiner. That's the basis upon which we do our creditworthiness check. And we stand here as annuity experts and the securing community. Think of the name of this. [35:40] Justin: If you're talking 2.0, you can say [35:43] JD: yeah, if you're talking. Thanks. [35:44] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Okay, okay. So that thing so that Safe harbor says at the end of it that the fiduciary may rely on the representations of the insurance company if and only if they do not have cause to question the representations made by the insurer. Mark and I own an RIA that performs in a sharing capacity. [36:18] Mark: How's your bathtub bourbon? [36:21] Michelle Richter-Gordon: It's delicious. Thank you. It does not taste like Michelle at all. [36:24] JD: I mean this, I mean this was all the compliment in the world. I really do. When I look at the dictionary and [36:29] Mark: I look, all due respect, when I [36:33] JD: look up corporate speak in the dictionary, there's a picture of you right there. But you do it really well. [36:43] Michelle Richter-Gordon: We do not qualify for the secure Safe Harbor. I'll join for that. With respect to a material proportion of the insurance industry because we have caused a question the financial representations made by those insurance companies. So at what point does someone listening to an annuity expert saying that they have caused question these financial representations then themselves become responsible if they are going to make a recommendation for such a product for also knowing what it is that we do know. Let me stand before you saying we don't qualify for this Safe Harbor. [37:20] JD: I like this. I like this. I like this. Now let's slow down, take a breath everyone. Okay, so. I believe, I want to respect the memes, you know, I want to strike the memes. I believe that you guys, I love how I keep speaking for you, but you envision a world in retirement plans in the future where currently and a 401k advisor assists their plan sponsor clients to decide on a core menu and what investments will be in there and then educates the plan sponsor on which ones to remove and replace through some type of methodology and process. They may use the services of A321 or A338 or manage accounts. We all understand some of the complexities there, but the bottom line is that someone's there counseling them and guiding them, which we're very familiar with in our industry. You think that this will also be an area that needs that same type of counsel and that the current advisors are not up to that job. Now, I want to challenge you. I'm not really challenging, so I agree with what I just said for you. But do the advisors today, no offense, chat bar. Don't throw anything at me here. Do the advisors today, are they really investment experts? Are they really like super pro at putting together a core menu and deciding whether or not what fund goes in and goes out? Why couldn't they. The same way they use Fi360 or some other tool. Why couldn't they pretend, sorry guys, pretend to be experts in the guaranteed income space. And won't that really be what the world looks like? Is that they're just going to be. It's just another asset class basically. And some bullshit advisor, love you advisors is gonna be like, yeah, this is a great one from this company and it works well with this record keeper. And we put it in place and these are the benefits to it. And this is the right you meet. Mark, you're shaking your head acknowledgement, but I'm sure you don't like what I'm saying. So speak. We. [39:33] Speaker F: We actually modeled that into our business plan. So part of this came out of us working with an RIA who is especially. [39:43] JD: Keep going Mark, designated driver. [39:48] Speaker F: Anyway, this person was teaching a course with us at the center for Board Certified Fiduciaries on Don Trone on annuities. Don Trone's effort, and this was a very experienced person, PhD in academics, Defined benefit plans as clients and 401k plans as clients. [40:20] Mark: And [40:22] Speaker F: it became clear to me in working with this person who asked me to help coach them that they were never going to want to want to become an expert in annuities. Now I don't think that's true for everybody. So I said to Michelle when we started this business, I think for the first two years we might be brought in as an outside expert the way a general practitioner doctor would bring in an eye surgeon to do the eye surgery. [40:51] JD: Makes sense. [40:52] Speaker F: But that that doctor might want to learn how to do eye surgery over the next two years. And so they'll eventually go off and continue to do it on Their own. [40:59] JD: Well, it doesn't Michelle. Michelle loves you all being brought in as the outsourced expert because it kind of helps with the whole conflict of interest thing. Right. As soon as we pass that little cavern of doing it yourselves, then conflict of interest comes into play. Right or no. [41:20] Michelle Richter-Gordon: So you know, I think, I think there is this perception that there are commissions associated with the inclusion of annuities is in plans. And that's not the case. Right. Outside of the defined contribution space where annuities are sold as products which means that they experience a commission to the. [41:44] JD: There can be very good. [41:45] Michelle Richter-Gordon: That's not the case here. It is not in the Employee Retirement Income Security Act. [41:53] JD: This is a weird analogy, Michelle. A shares have huge front loads in the retail space. They don't have them in the firm case. [42:01] Michelle Richter-Gordon: That's right. That's exactly what's happening here. So as the universe stands, because prior to the passage of the legislation we previously discussed, there is no in plan annuity environment or very little. So those who are expert in that space were not plan advisors and those who are plan advisors are not expert in annuities. Right. You know, our thinking is just about bridging that gap that because we are not paid more to say you should have one of these things or to not have one of these things. And I asked paid hourly to say [42:39] JD: like Michelle, Michelle, I'm really good at interrupting. I'm going to do a ton of it. [42:43] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Yes, great. [42:44] JD: Can I ask what does the current landscape look like? I know of Income America, we all know of Matt Ulnowitz and kind of that consortium. There's a big word from me, Michelle. Consortium. And, and that's something that's out there. But is are we seeing it boys too? Like are you seeing it all in record keeping products at Voya empower these places like and Michelle and Mark, you guys are the experts. Like do we have it now today or do we not really. [43:19] Michelle Richter-Gordon: My view is not yet. What I'm starting to see is so I was fortunate enough to get to present at plan sponsor conference last year and then again this year and I observed a material difference in attendance in the sessions associated with retirement income this year relative to last. I think that what I'm starting to see is some plan sponsors asking questions of advisors and advisors having to respond when that occurs. Occurs. I am not seeing a massive shift in the environment yet. I'm just starting to see that happen. And you know, you have to imagine as somebody who's you know, looking to defend your business that if that's occurring then people are going to be asking those questions and they're going to look for somebody who can answer them. Right. So if you don't have that expertise. [44:15] JD: Yeah, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? Like so are these inquiries evidence of a future change in our landscape? And I know that there's a lot of things that stand in the way of this that I'm sure you all, you know, think about a lot more than we do. I want to ask you one last thing and then I want to move on to some stock tips. [44:39] Chad: Hold on, hold on JD because you, you asked us for a second. [44:43] JD: Okay. [44:44] Chad: Are we running into this sitting in hundreds of point of sales a year? [44:47] JD: Yes. Oh, you're running into questions. [44:50] Chad: I'm getting questions from advisors, mostly insurance based advisors that that are looking to annuitize the back end of this and wanting to know if there's a Solution within the 401k plan space. I got hit up and I took the meeting because I thought it was an interesting idea from. I'm looking over to make sure I say it right. A Nexus Retirement Solutions. I took a meeting with them today and they've built an annuitized TDF that is a group. Oh yeah, that is a group annuity inside there. So not individual contracts that have a guaranteed payout. So it is coming from a small portion but is coming from advisors. I'm getting no questions from clients, plan sponsors, not hearing about it from participants. But there is interest coming from people like Michelle and Mark that are building solutions and also advisors that are very comfortable to sell annuities. [45:46] JD: Nevin in the chat bar said something that I agree with wholeheartedly and not just because I worship the man. But advisors need to drive this like anything. If advisors still rule the nest, right? If they don't, is that a proper nose? Rule the nest. So much fact, no clue. What am I trying to say? Rule the rooster advisors. If advisors aren't into something, then no one's going to pitch it to the client and no one's going to implement it and no one's going to monitor and keep it going. So what's the dare I say? Like I'm talking in kind of a greedy capitalist way right now. You, I guess you mentioned earlier Michelle, if the market is such that everyone wants it, then as an advisor I have to have it. Otherwise I'm going to lose business and not win new business. But there's no greed motivation for advisors which you hate that Michelle like to want to sell this not like they're going to make more money because they can sell guaranteed income. And I'm not suggesting that that's the only motivation for advisors. [46:50] Speaker F: So. [46:50] JD: Okay, I just answered my own question. You just really need that. Greed is right. Greed works. It won't. He's wrong. It won't, Gordon. It will not be motivated by greed. It'll be motivated by I have to have this because it's the going thing that everybody wants. [47:06] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Okay, that is one way. And also the fact that plan advisors are increasingly moving into the wealth management arena. And there are, you know, impending legislative changes related to the definition outside of plans of the term fiduciary may come as soon as August from the Department of Labor. All of these factors impact how advisors think through how they want their practice to work. And there will be some advisors who are maybe five, ten years into the business thinking about how do they expand their practice, how do they get themselves into the rollover arena. And those people may find it useful to introduce some of these insured solutions to their client base. [48:02] JD: I, I got to say this out loud. And we need to move on. But I. The pessimists in me thinks that what, what will happen is what you don't want to have happen here, Michelle, is if this takes off and you're right, which I think even Chad and the guys backed you up. And it makes sense to me that this would be the. A big next evolution. Even Webby in the chat said this is not PepsiS is actually serious. I'll drink for that. This is a real deal for a lot of reasons. I just feel like One America and principle and nationwide and insert insurance company here. And if you're not an insurance company, you'll make some strategic partnership with one and it'll be like the old school fixed income money market or dare I say target date fund. Like when you go to One America, no offense, One America. I'm sure I'll get a email tomorrow from one of these. You'll get the One America guaranteed income. Kind of like what we saw with Hancock and the guaranteed income for life back in the day, right? Isn't that just where we're gonna head no matter what? Give me one more kind of 30 second response from either one of you. Not that your company can't play a role because there'd be a niche too of things that aren't that way. [49:26] Michelle Richter-Gordon: But what I think will occur is the advent of middleware, which will make connectivity of additional products beyond what the record keeper itself creates available. My perception is that that's advancing at a rapid rate and that it's likely to be within the next two years. [49:53] Speaker F: That will help. But my perspective is also driven by an experience I had with exchange traded funds. I was part of the iShares business back in 2000 when we launched the iShares. Exchange traded funds were nowhere. [50:07] JD: You know, you wouldn't get them in a. [50:10] Speaker F: Index funds at broker dealers were nowhere. Indexing was not included in any of the advisory platforms that Merrill Lynch, Smith Barney, Morgan Stanley, none of them. And so we were up against it. And all of a sudden the bear market in 2000 happens. [50:27] JD: Well, obviously index funds have succeeded and completely changed that narrative. I'm not so certain. Exchange traded funds. [50:35] Speaker F: The catalyst, though was. The catalyst was that everybody was looking for a new idea. Everybody was looking for a new way to manage risk, a new solution to bring to clients that would differentiate them. And I think the people that really get schooled up in this and figure out how to include it into sort of a total portfolio process for reducing risk in retirement, they're going to be ready and they'll be able to win clients away from those who aren't. And that'll be the. That'll be the driver. I have a quote here that I wanted to share with you. Just. It's a very short quote. [51:08] JD: Okay, you've gone well over 30 seconds, but go ahead. [51:11] Speaker F: It's from Gary Schilling. Those of you who've been around for [51:15] Mark: a while love that guy. [51:16] Speaker F: He's an economist. Yeah, so he says. We continue to believe the Fed will win the tug of war with equity investors, with victory signaled by stockholders reaching the puke point as they regurgitate their last equities and swear to never buy another. He makes the case that 12 out of the last 12 bear markets that have occurred during recessionary environments, that was the case. People get to the point where they just don't want anything to do with equities anymore. The target date funds are going to be hammered. People are going to be looking for a new. [51:48] JD: They've been hammered, bro. They've been hammered. [51:50] Speaker F: Last year was. Last year was nothing compared to what he thought. [51:53] JD: Fair enough. And I have to say out loud, it does seem like a perfect marriage. Like, it goes in lockstep. Like we didn't even talk today. But we all get. We focus our entire career on accumulation. Our entire career, the whole industry is focused on accumulation and not decumulation. And so this stuff like fits well together like a hand in a glove, like it makes sense. That we would use solutions like this. So. I get it. I get it. Okay. That was good though. I. You know, we've talked a lot about guaranteed income on this show and I don't think we got to that deep of a level without having you guys here. I think it's well timed because we're still early on on this stuff, but it's interesting and, and it could have a huge impact. So I, I enjoyed that, as detailed as it is. [52:43] Michelle Richter-Gordon: But. [52:43] JD: Hey, Chapar, sometimes you guys come here to learn shit. It's not all about just drinking beers and hanging out. [52:49] Mark: Hold on. Maybe again, maybe I. Maybe I blacked out, but did we say that there's a website that people can use this? [52:58] JD: No, Mark, they didn't pay for that. I. I offered them that and they didn't give us the fee for that. We. We. We, unlike Michelle, we like revenue sharing as hidden as it can be. Oh yeah. What's. What's the website? Guys? Where can people go? Check this out. Thanks, Mark. [53:16] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Roby retirements.org is our ebook site and it's open access until August 1st when we will turn on the paywall. Our. Our registered investment advisors website is annuity research.com. [53:33] JD: nice. Yes. [53:35] Mark: How many. Can we. Can we get like a statistic on how many people log in from now [53:41] Speaker F: until August or something like an update? [53:44] JD: You're going to update us at some point? Yes, Mark. Really? Or Robi. Sorry. [53:50] Speaker F: Really? [53:50] JD: Holding her feet to the fire. Let's spin the wheel of ice. [53:55] Mark: Come on. [53:57] JD: And then we're gonna give you all some investing advice. [54:04] Mark: Yeah. [54:05] JD: Finally. [54:07] Justin: First time this year. [54:10] JD: Wow. [54:12] Chad: That's the secret. Be quiet and you don't have to get. Get iced. [54:17] JD: Okay. It's the every. It's really everyone's favorite part of the show. And I mean that. It's drunk stock tips, please. He's a savant. He's a genius. You all dream of little blue cows floating in the clouds and rogue guy dreams of ticker symbols in the stock market. [54:52] Mark: That is not true. [54:54] JD: He's. It just runs through his blood. People. Some people were born to do this. And you were not. But he was. He told you to buy Netflix when it was $199. 199. He said buy it. It's now 438. Okay. He told you to buy Apple at 142. It's 191. He told you to buy Twitter long before Elon took it over. Well, if you followed his advice, you locked in a 53 point no, sorry, a 24 gain on that. Reading the wrong number. He told you buy Home Depot at 269 is 302. He told you not to buy Peloton. He told you not to buy layered superfoods even though he's a great surfer. Not really. And he was right. Both of those went down. He told even though he loves scooters, he told you not to buy Bird. And he was right. You shouldn't have bought Bird. It went down his one little faux paw. And I've left a few off because we don't have the time. But I want to be very clear. Brandon wanted to make sure I didn't give you all the good and not one of the bad. Did you hear me? One of the bad. He told you to buy Budweiser. I can't remember its price when you did. Someone please go back and research that for me. [56:08] Justin: 55 or 60 or something like that, That's. [56:10] JD: Thank you, Justin. I was going to say 55 or 60 is my notes. It's now hovering around 55 somewhere. And I think, what? [56:18] Mark: That's a mega buy right now. You need to just go crazy. [56:23] JD: It was right after a lot of their drama and I think Mark's words were, hey, this is a long term thing. You all forget about it and be drinking Bud Light before you know it any. And anyway, I thought you were going [56:36] Mark: to point out the one I screwed up. That's down. That's Nvidia not doing so well. [56:41] JD: Oh, I didn't look at Nvidia. [56:43] Speaker F: Yeah, it's down. [56:45] JD: Wait, didn't you. [56:46] Mark: That was. [56:46] JD: You said go. Huh? You said. [56:48] Mark: Yeah, that was my. That was my YOLO moment. [56:51] JD: Thank you. That's the newest one. I gotta look at Nvidia. I gotta look at Nvidia. It's been short, short, short time period. Mark, that was the last time we did this. Okay, I got a new one for you and I honestly, I want to know this one. I'm confused and I'm curious at the same time. It's a long time, like popular brand. I think it's in everyone's wardrobe and here in the United States and then, then went on and international people wanted it because of its USA fame. And Chad's butt looks really good in a pair of Levi jeans. So the ticker is L, E V I. It's been crushed, but not, not crushed. Take a look at it. Everybody pull it up in your little app. It hit a high of 20 or 30 back in April or May of 2021. It's all the way down to 1423 or after hours, 1335. [57:48] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Why? [57:49] JD: This is a loved one brand. Who doesn't like Levi's? Mark, what do we do here? Because I'm feeling like I want to pull the trigger. [57:56] Mark: Well, first off, this is coming from a guy who doesn't, and don't take this the wrong way, who doesn't wear pants. All right, well, I also, I just wear shorts. Okay, get, get your money out of the gutter. Also, I feel like jean, the jean market's been pretty inflated with like designer jeans. Target has a brand that makes jeans. They're just a dime a dozen. So the, the good old days of, you know, Levi's being like what Kleenex was to tissue. Those days are gone. [58:29] Chad: J.D. [58:30] Mark: i, I think Levi's is just collecting dust on Walmart shelves if you ask me. I'm in Missouri right now. A lot of people wearing them. We'll say, but I'm from California. Not a lot of people wearing them. I'm just, well, they wear different stuff. But I'm just saying jeans in particular there look very different than they do here. Hard working people versus let me buy the ripped ones for some odd reason because that's cool. I guess. I, I don't understand jeans these days. [59:03] JD: I don't wear them often. [59:04] Mark: So that's why, I'm sorry, what is the current price, JD 14 bucks. [59:12] JD: Just south of 14, 1335. [59:14] Mark: I mean, so to me that's one that I feel like it's gonna hold. [59:16] JD: You know, it's not going to be [59:18] Mark: like a great buy. It's not going to be a bad buy. It's gonna just sit there for a while. But I'm, I'm just not into it. It doesn't excite me. I think that I used to drive, you know, across the, the bridge and see the Levi's up in San Francisco. I don't see that much more like, ah, I'm done with them. Not, not in, not in. Nope. [59:39] JD: Don't buy it. All right everybody, you've heard it here. Rogue guy says sell on Levi's. He's not a buyer of the stock and this is an institution. I mean, 100 plus. [59:50] Mark: Wait, hold on, hold on. Michelle, can you please leave my legal disclosures? [59:57] JD: I'll read them, I'll read them for you. Rob Guy here on the show, everything robe guy says is fully backed by the retireholics. And everything we do, if robe guy says by, and you're not a fucking idiot, you should buy the stock. If you want to make money. There you go. We are represented by the fuck you broker dealer company and they will back all of this with no insurance risk again. Bye bye bye. Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. Okay, we're going to go to Chapter Champion. My iPads haven't fits. Right now, last week's chap or update to Kush first Kush update. So cool of you to want to donate your winnings to Kelly Mann. Awkward of me. Then to reach out to Kelly and say, hey, I know you had cancer. I know maybe it was recoming again and we'd love to like throw some money your way. I mentioned you, Kush and the chat bar in general. Loving Kelly Mann, the woman behind Audit Miner and a phenomenal guest on our show in the past. She didn't tell me I could update you this, but I'm going to do it anyways. She got tests done this year. The doctors thought she had a recurrence of the cancer. Turns out the test came back negative. Okay, so that's good. However, when I offered her cash and or flowers or whatever, she said that was like 8,000 bucks beyond like what her insurance covered in her. She's still kind of building her company and so she said, yeah, send me some cash, man, send it to me. So I'm like, okay, so I'm getting her Venmo or her Zell or whatever and we'll send it to her Kush. And normally when I think you couldn't possibly be any dumber, you go and do something like this and normally and totally redeem yourself. And normally we buy like 100 bucks a pizza or something. I don't know, depending upon my mood. Cush, maybe we'll just throw 500 at her on Zell or something. Something like that. So thanks to you, chat bar, community and Kush for caring about her. She's a phenomenal person. Last week's winner was a newbie. Not last week, last show. That was eons ago. Love that little break. We had it towards the end of June. Tim Thurston won. Is Tim here tonight? Is Timmy here tonight? He is. [1:02:23] Chad: He was. [1:02:25] JD: Let me see if he's here. [1:02:26] Speaker F: He's here. [1:02:27] JD: All right. Well, Tim, I can't tell you how happy I was when I pulled up where you lived and. And I saw what was right down the street from you. This is a retireholics first. We've never ordered from here and so delivered to Tim tonight, hopefully. Did you get it, Tim? Just give a thumbs up or whatever. In the chat bar was one Kraft Parmesan grated cheese. Oh, sorry. What store did we get to shop at? 7 11, people. 7 11. I was excited. Like, I felt like I was virtually walking through a 711 picking. And it was a lot of fun. Kraft Parmesan Grated Cheese, 3 ounce Haagen Dazs vanilla ice cream. Yummy, yum, yum. A Nestle Toll House cookie ice cream sandwich with some chocolate chip in there, [1:03:27] Chad: melted before I go. [1:03:28] JD: Fantastic. Strawberry soda, 20 ounces. Can everyone say with me diabetes slurpee, cherry slushy, 30 ounces. Oh, yeah, we got you some cup beef ramen noodles soup. You know, the little cart. Not cartoon cardboard package. You just pour the water in. Sour Patch Kids blue raspberry flavor. We got you nerds. A Twix king size candy bar. Eminem peanuts, Eminem chocolate candies. Peanut sounds right. I was so jelly. [1:04:06] Speaker F: I wonder if. [1:04:07] Mark: Yeah, I wonder if Tim's having an edible [1:04:11] JD: Takis. Takis. The spicy, intense nacho tortilla chips. [1:04:16] Mark: Good. [1:04:17] JD: And I thought to dip those in, Mr. Thurston, you could have a Fritos dip. Jalapeno cheddar flavor. So you get the dip to dip those in. I'm not done, people. A Hostess donut powered powdered mini donuts. Hey. A big bag of sunflower seeds, ranch style. Because, you know, that's how they like them in the Midwest. That's what Chad and Rogue got. [1:04:42] Chad: He's in Dallas. [1:04:45] JD: We're giving him a flavor of your life. Funyuns onion flavored rings, a Butterfinger candy bar. 3. This is kind of the. The good one. 3 Big Bite hot dogs, quarter pound hot dog. Those are those ones, like under that little heated glass thing and you get a. Wash it all down with a giant Slim Jim. [1:05:15] Mark: Wow. [1:05:16] JD: Hey, Thurston, don't drink, okay? Don't drink the Slim Jim. [1:05:20] Mark: I don't know. I don't think I'm worried about diabetes [1:05:23] Justin: stuff we've ever ordered. [1:05:24] Mark: Did you give a roll of toilet paper? [1:05:27] JD: My vote is. My vote for chapter champion is Will Hackler because he looks so sexy in his shorts. Justin, your vote. [1:05:37] Justin: Oh, I am going for Ed DiMarino because he said, looks like Mark forgot his sunscreen and he's on the road on his cell phone. [1:05:45] JD: So nice. Commitment. Commitment. Chadwick. [1:05:50] Chad: Hack. Sorry, buddy. You were up there. But. But Tony Davis was ruthless tonight. He was throwing some mud. [1:05:57] JD: Always is. Does he get points for, like. For being mean to our guests? Okay, he gets. [1:06:02] Chad: He gets point from points for making logical points. But Being mean about it. [1:06:06] JD: We're gonna save the best for last. So mark, your vote for chopper champion. [1:06:10] Justin: Which Mark? [1:06:12] Speaker F: I. I'm gonna vote for Nevin just because he was kind to us last week and gave us some input. And so I'm lost. [1:06:19] JD: Ass kisser. Did you go yet, Robi or no? [1:06:22] Chad: No, no. [1:06:23] JD: Okay, Robi. No. Go ahead, Rob. What do you want? What do you want? Who's your boat? [1:06:29] Mark: I'm going with Webby. I just love the guy. I think. [1:06:34] JD: I think he. He just. [1:06:36] Mark: He just makes me smile. [1:06:37] JD: You might want to break the tie here, Michelle. [1:06:40] Michelle Richter-Gordon: So I will indeed. [1:06:42] JD: It's up to you. [1:06:43] Michelle Richter-Gordon: I will. I was in between Nevin and Webby and what ended it for Webby was the annuity suck URL and that he posted in the chat. And what did it for Nevin? For me, the same thing that Mark said. He was so good to us over the July 4th weekend. He gave us so much good feedback for our website. He's a legend. I give it to him. [1:07:11] JD: Nevin Nevin, chapter champion. That's great. Unfortunately, we. You can only be a chapter champion if you actually have a job. [1:07:22] Chad: So the guy still works harder than everybody. [1:07:26] Mark: Yeah. [1:07:27] JD: How bullshit is his retirement? I mean, come on, everybody. [1:07:31] Mark: What else? [1:07:32] Michelle Richter-Gordon: He's not allowed. We have had this discussion as to his non allowment. [1:07:37] Mark: Hey, I bet you he has some really good annuities, guys. [1:07:41] JD: Okay, Those are his air quotes in the digital form of retirement. Congratulations to Nevin Adams, a living legend and icon. You are chat bar champion for tonight's show. Congratulations. A little bit of housekeeping. Our past shows from the Broadridge FI360 conference are up@retireholics.com we had a really great conversation with Kristen Askew. Am I getting that right? She's the like diversity and equity and income person. So imagine the retireholics having a conversation [1:08:19] Mark: not income. [1:08:22] JD: Yeah. Exclusion. Inclusion. That was fun. Intimidating, scary. But a great show. Laura Rogers from One Digital. And then our treat was we got to talk to the founder of One Digital, Mike Sullivan. And so. And he surprised. [1:08:40] Chad: They were all good. [1:08:41] JD: Yeah. So check those out. Yeah, they were great@retireholics.com and yeah. Hey, everybody, thanks for tuning in. We love you guys. Thanks for remembering the first and third Thursday of every month. Thank you for allowing us to take this break from time to time and. And recoup our livers. It's been very helpful. Thank you two people tuning in out there on the web. YouTube, LinkedIn, on retirex.com. thank you for supporting us and to our guests. Our very intelligent and wonderful guests tonight, Mark and Michelle. Thank you so much. Clap, clap, clap. [1:09:25] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Thank you for having us. It was fun. [1:09:28] JD: We'll play some music. And the after show tonight will include just me silently drinking Grey Goose and Malort side by side. So if you want to stick around for that, feel free. I may even throw up on the screen. That could be fun. Or if some people stick around, maybe we'll talk. Four. Okay. I don't know, Michelle, Mark, you don't have to, but if you want to hang out and waste more of your life with us. Thank you, everyone. Brandon, play some music. I'm gonna hit the bathroom. [1:10:00] Speaker F: Yeah, me too. [1:10:01] JD: It's just a number one. [1:10:05] Speaker G: She's a gay funeral. It was everybody's disapproval. I should have worshiped her sooner. If the heavens ever did speak, she's the last true mouthpiece. Every Sunday's getting more bleak poison each week. [1:10:24] Speaker F: I'm gonna go say hi to my wife. [1:10:27] JD: We have to go. [1:10:28] Michelle Richter-Gordon: I'm like, it's my kids first night back after my skin with COVID You guys can go. [1:10:35] Chad: That's fine. [1:10:35] JD: Don't worry. [1:10:36] Michelle Richter-Gordon: Okay. Thanks, Justin. [1:10:49] Speaker G: Amen. Amen. Amen.