Fintech Disruption: AI Tax Agents & Venture Capital Math

[0:00] Jason: Well, I think you guys all sound amazing and you look amazing, and I'm super stoked to join you guys. I don't normally not a piece of bread and I went on two beers and a double shot of Angel's Envy for this. [0:12] JD: So those are the same. Those are the same skills. He uses everybody when he goes in to present for that series. E funding Slick Slick. Brandon, you're ready to rock. Unwant Nerdy Chad's gotta swing like a pro Rogue guy seeing off in slippers Let it go, Silent J. Yeah, he drinks and he knows what he knows. Man, nobody knows J Dizzles in a Lambo neon green, revving up the future It's a retirement dream where the retired are hollox, crack a cold wine. Cheers. Rewriting the rules, Been at it for years. One beer at a time. Yeah, we're changing the scene. Golf carts, Lambos, and a pensioner's dream. Justin, take it away. Who we got real quick? [1:18] Justin: Brandon? I think we need to add JD falling in Missouri off the table that one time to that video. [1:23] Chad: Oh, yeah, that'd be a good one. [1:25] JD: Yeah. [1:25] Justin: Anyways, all right. He's JD's newest wet dream. The Office of Kevin, or the offspring of Kevin Bacon and Ethan Hawke. And arguably a more impressive brain than the likes of Nerdy Chad, Josh Itzel, Nevin and Fred. Sorry, heck, you didn't make the cut. He's a serial entrepreneur, a math geek, a largely self taught software engineer who has always viewed himself as a bit of a hacker. Started his first company in 2005. Six years later he started a second company that grew to 4 billion in assets in just under six years. And here today to talk to us about his newest venture. But that's enough for me, Jason. We're going to hop into a new segment called Rapid Fire. I'm going to ask you a few questions. You get to respond with only one word and one word only. There's no explanations or anything else of that matter. Are you ready? [2:14] Jason: Let's do it. [2:15] Justin: All right. So what did JD bribe you with to be a guest on the show? [2:22] Jason: Beer. [2:24] JD: It's a good answer. Good answer. [2:25] Justin: What was the favorite part of your Mexico vacay? [2:32] JD: Beer. Jason. By the way, these answers are supposed to be rapid response. [2:40] Jason: Yeah, I'm like. One word's hard. Ocean. [2:45] Justin: Okay. Does Nate Moody have a hot sister? [2:48] Jason: Of course. That's two words. [2:51] JD: If. [2:52] Justin: If you could punch any celebrity in the face, who would it be? [2:59] Jason: She's so many. Who. What was that guy that was on Jurassic Park? [3:05] JD: Gold balloon Goldberg. [3:07] Jason: No, no, like the new ones. The new ones. [3:10] Chad: Yeah. [3:15] JD: I did not see that coming. I need to know why. [3:19] Jason: It just seems really annoying. [3:22] Chad: This is a punchable face. [3:23] JD: Sorry, Justin. That's pretty good. [3:25] Justin: No, that's good. That's what I want from these. And for a good buddy, Grant Ellis. Chunky or creamy? Creamy peanut butter. [3:31] Jason: Oh, peanut butter for sure. That's. That's more than one word. But, you know, chunky or creamy? [3:36] JD: Creamy. [3:37] Justin: Oh, you said creamy. [3:38] Chad: You didn't hear that part, so. [3:39] Jason: Yeah. [3:40] Justin: All right, well, there you have it, folks. [3:41] JD: I feel like we know better. Yes. I like this, Justin. I feel like it's evolving. Well, this is a new bit, Jason, we're trying out, and I like it. I like it. All right, everyone, we should just make our entire show that for an hour, one word answers. Yeah. This has been another episode. Thanks for tuning in, everyone. We'll see you next time. We got a lot to cover today, so I was going to kind of run through it all, but it. Let's just get right to it. But before we. Not to piggyback on Justin's intro, but let me fanboy a little bit. I said giant guest alert out on the interwebs. Like, this is true. I. I know we have a lot of 401k people here, and so maybe you kind of don't know Jason, but he created. I mean, I heard his name literally 10 years ago. Where? Advisor. Falling in love with your folio formula. Folio. You were doing whatever that was. And I was like, wow, this guy's really like people. Really? Advisors, specifically, really like what he's doing. And then Altruist. Like you're freaking only, what, like eight years into this thing or whatever, and already people are talking about how you are challenging Schwab. Challenging fidelity. Challenging Pershing. As. Listen up, everyone. A custodian platform. Altruist. So 5,500 plus clients on this thing. Advisors. I mentioned online evaluation. Approaching $2 billion. So this, to me, is going to be a fun night. We're going to get a. Get in deep on some stuff and super excited to have this dude here. Jason, we do play a game. It's called Acro Sin. I know you've got some jet fuel with you, so if you say any acronym or initialism besides my name, you must take a small sip from your jet fuel. But we also are adding the prohibitive word. So a little collaboration here with Agrison. And the prohibitive word today will be. I wrote it down. Advisor. Okay, if you again. Oh, Wait, I had a different one. [6:03] Justin: Artificial intelligence. [6:05] JD: I had a different one. We did financial last time. [6:08] Justin: No, no, we did adviser. [6:09] Chad: We did advisor. [6:10] JD: Okay, let's do financial tonight. Financial. Financial. Financial. You must drink from your penalty drink. Let's get right to it. Best well announced very recently that it has raised $385 million in a series E funding. Chad, can you remind everyone the day that we met with and sat with Aaron Shum and he shared his vision for this company to us, just the three of us. [6:45] Jason: You. [6:46] Chad: You try to make it sound like we weren't supportive when he shared that with us, but we were supportive. [6:50] JD: Were we? [6:51] Chad: We. So we were supportive under one avenue. And he talked about creating a record keeper. We're like, yeah, it's not gonna work. These big cruise ships will steer you right out of the water. But then when he talked about being the, the technology behind the record keepers, that's when you were like, oh, so you want to replace the cruise ship? That makes sense to me, Jason. He sat us down. Jason. And, and both JD and I were like, oh, man. Poor guy thinks this is going to work. It's going to go. But there was one component of it that we thought that could work. [7:22] JD: I don't know. That's not how I remember it. Jason. He sat us down and he walked away. And I looked at Chad and Chad looked at me and he goes, I have no idea what that guy's fucking talking about. Like, what is he going to do? And I was like, yeah, he's going to fall flat on his face in this industry. He has no idea. I think obviously Chad and I were totally off base, but I want to go deep on this $385 million funding that he's getting here. And so pay attention a little bit, Jason, because I know this is a bit out of your. Your area. He raised 385 million in this series. I know you've done something similar somewhat recently, year or two ago. Which brings him to a total capital raise of 660 million with this funding. Vessel said it's going to expand its distribution across all channels where income is earned and benefits are delivered. That seems like a smart place to deploy the money. But I love, I love news clips that, that these companies put out. But, Jason, you're the perfect guy for this subject. I've always been baffled about this Series A, B, E Z Silicon Valley venture capital kind of stuff. [8:38] Jason: It's. [8:39] JD: It's not my thing. I want to understand the math a bit. I took over a family business from My father. And we're in our 51st year. And I was taught to keep my overhead lower than my revenues, AKA I'll drink, generate profit and not to take on debt. Boring. I know. So please, Jason, help me understand this world. Help me understand veswell. As a 401k record keeper, they have got 200 million in annual revenue. But they go out and get another 385 to me. Let's assume I'm a $5 million revenue company, which is pretty close to what I do. Small potatoes compared to stuff that you guys do. If I ran out and got $7.5 million in investment money, bringing my total investment to 16 million, I think my wife and people around me would be very concerned about my. How I'm running this business. So take it away. How does this work? [9:53] Jason: Yeah, man. So. So first. Yeah. I've met Aaron a couple times and he seems like a really great guy. Very smart, happy dresser. Yeah, yeah. He's. He always is wearing a vest every time I've seen him. So it's like kind of. It seems ironic. Right? Yeah. Give the name of his company. Yeah. So. So basically, look, I think so. I think early on, like in those early stages, like the abc, you know, kind of maybe the AB rounds, like those first couple rounds of financing, the. The thesis is usually how big could this become? So basically, how big is the market? And does this. Is this entrepreneur good in the. In their. And their founding team, like, could they build a good team? So obviously in the first finances, like seed series A and so forth, there's no business, there's no revenue, there's no profit. [10:55] JD: There's an idea. [10:57] Jason: Yeah. Did I just. Did I. What did I acronize? [11:00] Chad: S word. [11:03] JD: S word, F word. [11:07] Jason: I don't know. [11:07] Chad: Oh, you said the actual prohibited word. [11:09] Justin: You didn't. [11:10] Chad: You didn't say an acronym. [11:11] JD: Oh, and you can always. [11:13] Jason: Well, I took a sip of the jet. [11:15] JD: Can I. Can we really quick. [11:16] Chad: Sorry, I do this all the time. [11:18] JD: Can we pause this real quick? It's any iteration of. Right. I'm gonna say the word. But none of these count. This is. [11:23] Chad: Yes, they do. [11:24] JD: No, they don't. I gotta verify. [11:27] Chad: Fine. [11:28] JD: It can end with E. It can end with S, right? [11:31] Chad: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. [11:33] JD: Really? Okay. So I'm not gonna say anymore though. Ing. Like it's still got the basis. Like it's the. The word is there. Okay. Just making sure. And Jason, you can continue on with your thoughts. [11:47] Jason: I'll be more succinct because if I use more words I'm more likely to like douse this. [11:52] JD: You know what I'm kind of asking when I get the whole startup thing, like, hey, we need some money to get this thing going. Yeah, totally understand that. And I also understand the vision of the future. Like what does the market look like? How big could this thing be? Obviously the charisma, intelligence, work ethic of the founder would be important. That all makes perfect sense to me. Like, that doesn't confuse me, but what confuses me is when something's been in business for several years at this point and has $660 million invested in it and is doing 200 million in revenue. So I guess let me give you some specific questions. Like the people that put the 660 million in, I'm assuming they want to get that money back? [12:41] Jason: Oh yeah, yeah. [12:42] JD: With a return of some kind. And I'm assuming they'd like that return to be somewhat better than like if they would have just invested in the stock market. So tell us, what do they think that return should be? Should it be 2x3x10x? When do they want it back? And if I'm a company like Aaron's and I'm doing 200 million in revenue, where do I need to get to a billion dollars in revenue to get those people back their money with some interest? Like, I'm just confused. [13:11] Jason: Yeah, yeah. I mean, great, great thinking. So yeah, you hit the down the head like that. Yeah, the, the early rounds are just like, hey, is this worth even pursuing? The later rounds are all about expansion. So to get kind of semi precise on this, what I'd say is at 200 million of reoccurring revenue that business went to market today, like IPO or said, hey, we're for sale, is probably going to trade at like six to eight times revenue. [13:40] JD: Six to eight times revenue. Okay. [13:42] Jason: Effort. This is going to be a long night, you know. [13:46] JD: No, that's good, that's good info. Six to eight times is where the valuation would be at. [13:53] Jason: Yeah, so, so, so that, so obviously if someone put money in at that price, they want a pretty big irr. Mother. I caught myself with that one. [14:05] JD: Anyway, that's going to happen a lot. [14:08] Jason: Yeah, I guess you guys are more old pros than me on this, but suffice to say, like the, the, the return they're going to want is, is, is likely somewhere around 25, 30% per year. And so you can you tell us [14:20] Chad: what that last acronym you said stands for? [14:22] Jason: Internal rate of return. Yeah, internal rate. [14:24] JD: We're dumb. Dumbs buddy. We are. [14:26] Jason: You guys know what that is? [14:27] Justin: What, what's the time frame on when they want to collect that? [14:31] Jason: Yes, it's. Every investor's different. If you take late stage private equity money, they're probably looking at like five to seven years at the long end. [14:40] JD: Yes, this is what I've heard. [14:41] Jason: Yeah. And some people will have a longer horizon than that. It kind of depends on where the capital came from. So if you're. But, yeah, most likely they're looking at it and saying if you want to get a 25% compound annual growth rate to make sure I don't, you know, get the wrong acronyms here. Yeah, you're, you're. They're going to have to go to about 10 billion in value. In order to do that. They're going to have to get to maybe a billion to a billion in a quarter of revenue. [15:10] JD: So the dumb, the dumb surfer was not far off. Like, that is where he needs to get to. I, I mean, I love Aaron. We've had him on this show. I, I'm a, by the way, I'm a fan of Veswell. I've always, I have not attacked Vestwell the same way I've attacked Guideline and Human Interest and some of these other firms. But that's a big ask. I feel like for those guys to get to a billion plus. But here I am talking to someone who's done some things. [15:38] Chad: I think, jd, there's two issues perhaps with the way we think about it. If I asked you to borrow a thousand dollars and you thought that it had promise, you'd probably give me a thousand dollars. I think 600. 600 million to these multiple levels of investors, these venture capitalists. [15:57] JD: Yeah. [15:57] Chad: It's not a big drop in their bucket. [15:59] JD: So you're just saying they're willing to lose. [16:02] Chad: They're willing to lose. I think Tony said in the chat bar, like they're, they're trying to hit 1 of 10 or. [16:06] Jason: Yeah, there's a pile. They call it. Yeah, that's it. So the basic, the basic gist of it, this is why they want to go after big markets. It's why, like, somebody could have a pretty solid idea in our space. Let's say someone's like, hey, I'm going to build this, this killer whatever, like, you know, tax planning software, and you're gonna, you know, just stand alone and I can make this thing. 10 million of reoccurring revenue and 5 million of EBITDA. Here's my business plan. It's bulletproof. Blah Blah, blah, blah. [16:36] JD: And earnings before the Internet tax, whatever. [16:40] Jason: You know, I don't know what I just said, but oh, I'll drink EBITDA profits, you know, whenever. But you get it. That's a serious man. What? [16:53] JD: That's how I do it, buddy. Vodka's a close friend of mine in life. Yeah. [16:57] Jason: So anyway, that's not a very fundable idea, right? The one I just shared. [17:01] JD: Like most, I was ready to buy in on that. [17:03] Jason: Yeah, listen, I mean again, us normal people would look at that and say that sounds amazing. But these, these venture investors and private equity investors, they're sometimes they'll raise funds that the fund size itself is a billion dollars. And their expectation is that they're going to return. Like what they really want is a 10x return the size of the fund that they raise. So if they raise a billion, they want to get 10 billion back. And you now if you're going to try to do that by buying pieces of a thousand small businesses, you spread yourself so thin. So what they'd rather do is have one or two companies return the entire fund and like 50 to 80% literally will get written down to like basically zero. Like they'll be total busts. [17:43] JD: And what you just explained actually does happen too, right. There are definitely like push private equity firms that invest in a bunch of smaller companies and try to make that work. But you're just giving us this other example of, of the guys going for the big home run because I know there's these private equities that gobble up, you know, hundreds of companies, thousand that do 5 to 50 million in revenue and try to make that type of work. Let me ask you this though, isn't it? I'm thinking that even your model, Aaron's model, the, the guidelines, human interest. And again in our 4k space. I've said this before on this show, but you, you confirm if I'm, if I'm on the right track here. These investors, venture capital, whatever. When you look at companies like Fidelity, Schwab, whatever, all the Wall street companies, these are like companies that have been around for centuries. A lot of them, like this is the legacy old guard. And aren't don't those investors get excited to think about like that someone could actually in some short period of time stand alongside those companies like I think maybe 15, 20 years ago. You think like that's impossible. There's no way, like even for your firm, like an altruist could actually be mentioned in the same sentence as a Schwab, you know, or a Fidelity. And so I'm imagining they open their wallets a lot quicker if, if they feel like there's an actual pathway to that. [19:17] Jason: Yes. So, so speed is, is part of why, why some entrepreneurs raise a bunch of money. Because you're totally right in order to build. Like for example, I was chatting with Bill McNabb who is on our board, he was the former chairman and CEO of Vanguard and he had this interesting stat we talked about which was that, [19:39] JD: by the way, Mark, I also think you should drink. That was kind of like a humble brag slash plug, wasn't it? [19:48] Jason: I was validating the source so people would believe I'm not making this up, you know, because, you know, you never know. [19:53] Justin: Right. [19:53] Jason: But so he was, he was there. But one of the things he said that was really fascinating was that in the 60 plus year history of Vanguard, they effectively just compounded at 22% for [20:06] JD: 60 plus years, massively fast growing company. [20:10] Jason: But it doesn't sound that crazy, right? And then he kind of acknowledged that almost half of those returns came from the market. Right. Like it was like, you know, 9% of the 22 was just the market going up for 62 years. And then he wanted to further say that in their best 10 year period, their growth rate was only about 40% per year. So it's like they ever had like some of these growth rates, you hear companies, 2, 3, 400%. [20:35] JD: Right. [20:36] Jason: They didn't, that wasn't a thing. So you're totally right. I think in the age of building a real business, like my last two companies, I self funded them and it was really hard. I had to pour every dollar back into them to keep them growing fast. So if you have a great business, if it truly is growing really fast, then adding capital to it will make it grow faster. Presumably again only to the extent that the unit economics actually function and make sense. So again, hypothetically, I think, I think you read like their press release and it was something like, hey, they're going to put this money into go to market or something like that, right. And expanding their services across different channels. So presumably, let's just guess for a minute that for every 100 they spend on go to market selling and marketing and onboarding, so if they do that, they can earn that back within 18 months. So they'd have what's called an 18 month payback and everything after 18 months hits, you know, it'll produce some level of gross profit. And if they're able to have a lifetime value, I presume, you know, the 401k. Business to me seems like one where the lifetime value is great. Like people don't switch every day. You keep these plans in place for a long time, you've got a bunch of natural tailwinds, people making contributions, markets going up. So I think there's probably this, this notion they have where, look, if you, if you secure a plan for 10 plus years, it's going to be very valuable. So if we just pour more money in to build the plans, you know, plan base larger, get more, you know, contribute, you know, people like participants that are making contributions. That's the notion. My, my guess is right, that these new investors are. [22:19] JD: Yeah, but, but can I, can I economically make sense? Thank you, Justin. This is a new year, a new season. Can I stop you with that? You said earlier that a lot of these fail. A lot of these concepts with all the investors, with the great entrepreneur, with the great concept, like it doesn't work out. So I mean, the fact of the matter is that it's, it's difficult and it's hard to do. So I guess I should just learn from my own comments here. Like, people are going to lose money on some of this. Like they're not all going to work out. [22:54] Jason: So to clarify, by the way, the, the fail rate's really high early. Once you get to a late enough stage, it's pretty proven out, you know, so I would say, like from my own experience, once we reached, you know, probably the like Series D stage, the risk of us failing was effectively zero. [23:14] JD: Well, but define, but Jason, define failing like, so, like no one was going [23:21] Jason: to lose any money. Meaning like an investor could put whatever money they put in, but it is a failure. [23:26] JD: Yeah, but it is a failure If I give 660 million and I don't get a return on that investment. Like. [23:32] Jason: Yeah, right. Keep in mind the early investors there have already made huge returns. Right. I'm sure, I'm sure whoever invested early. So normally this is not just, I'd say a general rule for people, if they're not familiar, is like typically a good founder that's confident in their business does not want to take more than 10% dilution in those later rounds. So they might give up 20 or 30% in their, in their very, like their seed in their Series A. But once you get some good traction and you're like series C, D, et cetera, if your business is doing well, you, you don't want to give up more than 10%. So, you know, maybe 15, you know, so what that would mean is like again, if you raise $300 million, you're probably giving up 15% ownership. Those earlier investors, I mean, they, they, they've come out amazingly right. They probably came in at like, if [24:23] JD: you get that million, if you get that far along and you are an early investor, then you've made your money before we actually get to the finish line and figure out what's going to happen. I. Are you familiar with the guideline? With the guideline? [24:38] Jason: Yeah. [24:39] JD: In your opinion, like, do you think that was a success for Guideline and the people who invested in Guideline take it. Take away the early investors, the late stage. [24:50] Jason: No, it was a bust. You know, they probably lost a little bit of money, not much. So you keep going. So all of these investors, they're coming in as preferred investors. So that means they get their money back before the common investors, the founders, the employers get a penny. So they probably didn't lose money, but they just didn't make any return. So for example, in the case of [25:10] JD: like I'll use vest going better than going bust, they not what they wanted. [25:14] Jason: Yeah, they're not going to big return. But like Invest Wall and Altruist, we both raised similar amounts of money, about $650 million. If we sold our businesses today for $700 million, the investors get all 650 first and then the other 50 million gets shared pro rata, meaning like the founders and employees get damn near nothing. Right. So. So there's a big risk in taking a whole bunch of money. You're building a prep stack. Right. [25:39] JD: It's a mess in your current model with Altruist, which does kind of mirror Aaron and Vestwell in some ways slightly different, but you know, and you stop me whenever I pry too deep here. And again, I'm, I'm actually rooting for you to live another 30 years and be a name alongside Fidelity and Schwab and Pershing or whatever you end up doing. But. So I apologize for having this conversation, but what's your current ownership in the company is What? [26:12] Jason: Mine's about 20%. [26:13] JD: 20% at this point. Okay. And so if all things didn't go perfectly and everyone had to sell, you still do okay for yourself, right? I'm getting real personal here. [26:26] Jason: Yeah, I mean, I think I'll be okay. So keep mine. I've also invested a lot in, into. Into Altruist. So I'm, I'm also a preferred investor and I invested early and kind of later. Like I invested all the way up through the series. [26:37] JD: As you should be. [26:38] Jason: The series D. I think I put, like, 3 million bucks in, even at the series D level. So I was investing all the. All the, like, basically, you know, from start to then. And so I've been accumulating shares. I've never sold any shares. Right. So, like, there is. So I think it depends on. Every founder is different. But, you know, I built two companies before sold them, did reasonably well. So my motive is different than other folks. Some founders, actually, they take a bunch of liquidity early. Like, they'll sell because you'll get offers. Like, you know, certain investors will be like, I want to invest, and I'll give you also buy 5 million of your founder shares or something. [27:14] JD: Yeah, right. [27:14] Jason: And so then. And so some founders, like, they take that totally understandable. They want to de. Risk for their family a little bit. But then when all the dust settles, all of a sudden, they go to. They get to, like, the liquidity event, and they own, like, 5% of their company, you know, and it's like. I don't know if it's a huge enough denominator. [27:30] JD: Yeah, right. If the number gets bigger and bigger and bigger. This is fascinating for me. We can. We can move on. [27:36] Justin: Hold on real quick before we move on. Go ahead, Justin. Were you gonna do what I was gonna do? [27:41] Chad: Well, it was. It was part two of what I mentioned earlier when I said there's, I think, two. Two things that we need to know. One being that these dollars aren't huge dollars in the eyes of these venture capitalists. The second being in order to get another seat of funding. Jason, I have to imagine you're sitting down with these people and saying, here's how we're going to continue to grow. Here's the other markets we have not touched yet. Here's where future revenues, and it come from most of these, like, when I look at vessel, they're not continuing to do the same thing. There's other lines of opportunity expanding. That led us to Nate's question, which is, from your point of view, how does Veswell go to these investors and say, with my access to these participants, with my access to data, with my access to these assets, here are some other avenues that we're going to make money on. So give me another $300 million? [28:30] Jason: Yeah, well, I think so. I think the. I think the. I think probably the biggest winner in the. The guideline deal was Veswell, you know? Yeah. [28:44] JD: What is. Yeah. [28:45] Chad: 30, 000 plans. [28:46] JD: A bunch of those plans. [28:47] Jason: Wow. [28:48] JD: I didn't know. I didn't know. Jason, by the way, Kudos to you. Clap, clap, clap. I didn't know you're so well versed on our side of this whole financial chessboard. I thought you're just a registered investment advisor, wealth manager, focus guy. You know our, a little bit well, [29:03] Jason: I mean, not, not. It's, you know, it's like very minimal, comparatively good. But I, I love, I love the space man. It's a good space. [29:13] JD: Yeah, no, that's cool. That, yeah, that is a very interesting thing that's going down in our industry, that whole acquisition and, and how that panned out. [29:21] Chad: Don't let them off the hook. J.D. i want to hear some sort of an answer there as far as how [29:26] Jason: to grow like so here's the thing that like, by the way, I think that you know, this is going to sound like maybe overly simplistic, but I think the first thing is I don't know what their total assets are. Do you guys know what their total assets across all their plans are at Vestwell? [29:41] JD: Oh God, I have that in. [29:43] Jason: I don't like 20 billion or 30 billion or. [29:47] JD: I'll find out for you. Continue on. [29:49] Jason: Yeah, let's just assume it's 20 billion. I don't know, it could be, could be higher, it could be a lot higher. It could be double that, I don't know. But let's just say it's 20 billion for Simplicity's sake. I think the first thing is if you just look at simple compounding, I think their presumption is the average plan participant is putting whatever 5% in. Some get a little match, some are getting some level of. Most people are still working so maybe they're more aggressive and their plans are growing at blah blah, blah, 8%. But anyway, you get the, the gist of it. There's probably this like basic assumption that they can just wake up and every year it's going to grow by 20% a year. So it's going to double every three and a half years. So if we use a 10 year time horizon, let's just say it's at 20 billion. The 20 becomes 40, becomes 80, becomes 160 billion in 10 years. And I don't know what their monetization is exactly, but I'm going to presume it's somewhere like around 25 to 30 basis points. [30:38] JD: Are you talking about like their profitability? [30:40] Jason: No revenue, just like what's the revenue on the top? You know, like how much, how much? You talk about the 200 million of revenue? [30:45] JD: Because we haven't, we haven't talked about that. Yet Jason, like, like obviously your, your profitability is a factor here, right? [30:52] Jason: Yeah, yeah. [30:53] JD: I mean whether you're making 20 or 15 or 30 or 40 or like that's a huge. [30:59] Chad: That was my comment to Nate though, Jason, in the chat bar is that they, they aren't tied to the assets as much as most modern, I'll say modern day record keepers are. They have a flat base via per participant charge. So when they go from 50 billion to 100 billion, yeah, they have some sliver in there, but it's not enough to move the needle. It's definitely not 25 basis points. I'd say it's in the range of 2 to 3. [31:22] Jason: Yeah, it's interesting because I mean, you know, I'm just, I was just kind of backing out the math and I'm like If you have 200 million of revenue, if you were to calculate it in basis points hypothetically, you know, like if they're only making 20 basis points, they'd have a hundred billion dollars in assets. [31:40] JD: And we thinking they have 50 billion, [31:42] Jason: I think they have closer to that. So they're actually monetizing at closer to 40 today. And so the assumption is like, even if that number goes down to 25, but those plan assets, again, they double three times in the next 10 years, they're going to have half a trillion dollars in assets. [31:59] JD: But again, to Chad's point, you're, they're, they're really not tied to the assets, they're more tight. [32:05] Chad: No, but he's just saying if that's their margin now, why would they not maintain that margin they're gonna get. [32:10] JD: Because, because their margins based on headcounts, not necessarily assets. So if the market goes up, their revenue doesn't necessarily go up as much as your legacy record keepers. You know what I mean? [32:21] Jason: Yeah, I mean, I'm actually, I have to dig in a bit more. I mean I, I, because I actually have a, I have a guideline plan for one of my small businesses I own. And I mean I'm, I'm pretty sure we're paying asset based fees on it, like in addition to like a, a plan. [32:37] JD: I'm sure there's a custodian fee. I mean that's, that's your world. There's, there's investments that are asset based, you know, for the expense ratios. But Aaron's model is less of the asset based. Yeah, right, Chad? [32:50] Jason: Yeah, the traditional model, they did a bunch of state sponsored, they did all these like kind of state plan things [32:54] Chad: which were kind of unique plans. They're also the, the private labeled recordkeeping chassis for a bunch of different companies. So they're getting monetized in that way [33:03] Jason: for the technology where the profits are going to come from. JD is basically like again, the, the, the, the, the, the central assumption which, which may not be correct to your point, right? This is, but this is what the, these investors are assuming when they're doing their math is their assumption is they're like, okay, these are largely fixed cost businesses, but the revenue expands and therefore they have expanding profit margin over time. In other words, because like if your, if your cost is like based on, if the, if the unit cost is tied to a plan participant or a plan itself and your, but your revenue expands at a faster rate than does your expenses, your cost per unit, you have expanding profit margin. And their assumption is like look over some amount of scalable, you gain scale and you'll have profits. Right. [33:48] Chad: I, I think what we were all trying to get you to say, Jason, because you know, the inside track is what we've been trying to get someone to say over the years, which is this, this ability to monetize the participant, the ability to sell services. I mean that's what says it very clearly in their statement. They're going after more than just 401k benefits now. They're looking at health savings accounts, emergency accounts. They're probably going to end up getting into some, some sort of employee benefit on the health insurance side. Like there is a million ways. And J.D. you've heard me say it for. [34:18] JD: They're already doing that. [34:19] Chad: It's access, access, access. They have access to these businesses, we have access to these participants and they have access to these advisors. [34:27] JD: This is great. [34:27] Chad: Profit's gonna come from. [34:29] JD: I told you guys in our kind of private email that I would just kind of see where the wind blows us because I wasn't planning to spend this time on this much time on Aaron's thing. But I, no, I like it and let's let it go. So I want to learn a little more about Altruist in the sense that, Jason, like what is your goal for the company? You've had this like quick growth, I would say very quick growth, year over year over year. You're obviously very popular with the Rias and I say that on purpose because I want to take a swig for my vodka. But I'm thinking your model too is a one that you've always been a low cost guy. You were kind of going against the legacy establishment. So do you have bigger visions? Oh, Geez, I'm stepping right into this. I don't want to talk about Hazel yet, so put a pin in that. But for Altruist, the custodian alone, you have bigger visions for that company to generate revenue in other ways or you always try to be just a very cost efficient high tech custodian. [35:36] Jason: So, short answer is yes. So we're kind of interesting. I don't know that a lot of people know this, but if I'm asked, I'm always pretty transparent about it. But again, if measured in basis points, we generate more revenue per dollar on platform than either Schwab or Fidelity or really any other custodian. And so there's a number of reasons for that, but one of the biggest reasons is that the, the custodial point is a vertically integrated platform. So it's a clearing in custody software, asset management. So there's all these different kind of layers. And the other thing is that because we're all digital in nature, when accounts are opened, it's a lot easier for people to opt into additional services. Right. So for example, we have the highest opt in rate in the entire industry to what's called fully paid securities lending, you know, which basically stock loans, if you will. And it's like, I mean it's like multiple orders of magnitude higher than any other firm. And the reason why is because it's just a box you can check, do you want to get extra yield? [36:40] JD: It's the, it's the user experience, the ease of 100. [36:43] Jason: Yeah, and the same thing can be true about again, any number of other things that a custodian could do to earn revenue margin, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Like all these things are, you know, like things that we do. So and then we integrate all these things. So we make do quite well on asset management. Each layer, if you can imagine, we actually price probably like probably 60 to 90% cheaper than anyone that's a standalone company. And so the kind of, the magic of the model is that we're not just a custodian or just a software company or just a model marketplace for asset managers. So each one of those things becomes a revenue center and our costs are largely fixed. So like in other words, like there's a fairly static cost per account. [37:26] JD: Your answer to me is no, we're, we're gonna, we don't need to do new different things. I'm sure you'll evolve, but you're saying we just need to grow with our current thing in terms of revenue, you [37:39] Chad: have so many pokers in the fire in terms of levels of profitability that there the market is vast. [37:46] JD: Well, and you're still small. No offense to. To Schwab and Fidelity. Right. So you can still grab more market share from them in the coming years, I'm imagine. [37:56] Jason: Yeah. [37:56] JD: Can I ask you a question? You seem very. Oh, I didn't drink my vodka for this. I'll drink twice. You seem very RIA focused. Is there something stopping you from doing big custodian deals with like national broker dealers and stuff? [38:13] Jason: Yeah. So the broker dealer business. To do that, you'd be registered as what's called the correspondent clearing firm. This is like Pershing and National Financial and you know those suspects. I think. [38:23] JD: I would think that would be fruitful for you to like do a big deal. [38:28] Jason: Could. Yeah. I mean, so we will do correspondent business, but probably a bit unconventionally for perspective. I mean, the entirety of the independent broker dealer channel is maybe three or three and a half trillion dollars in assets. And the RIA channel, I guess we have to drink. Another acronym is how much is a $10 trillion. So it's three times bigger and it's growing faster. Yeah. And the other thing that's wild is you think about it. 80% of that market share is two companies is Schwab and Fidelity. And they both have NPS scores under 20. So these are not like loved companies. [39:06] JD: Can I. Can I divert for you, motherfucker? [39:09] Jason: I just. By the way, I just did another acronym called yourself out. [39:12] Justin: Mark didn't even pick up on it. [39:13] JD: Let me bring up something. You I've been wanting to see on the show for a long time. So Schwab, you're saying it's so successful so big with advisors. Don't think pretty much on advisors on tv. Like, aren't there commercials all about like financial advisors being rich that steal money from you and that you should go to Schwab instead? [39:33] Jason: Yeah. I mean, it's a strange dynamic. [39:36] JD: Why do advisors do business with them if they totally crap on them? On. [39:42] Jason: Yeah. When there's. Again, when you have a, you know, sort of like a. An oligopoly, you know, there's not a lot of other choices. You have to keep in mind that to work with Fidelity, it's not exactly a walk in the park. Right. Like Fidelity typically is going to say we're not even interested in you if you don't have at least $100 million. And in the registered investment advisor world, there's about 40,000 firms. 50% of those firms are under $100 million in assets, but collectively they still have one and a half trillion dollars. So if you're, if you're half of the market, fidelity is not even accessible, period. And then if you can make the minimum, you're going to be treated basically like a complete, like you know, flunky. Because they want 500 plus. [40:23] JD: These are the building blocks to your business model right now that you're laying out. This is why you did what you did. [40:29] Chad: And as I hear Jason talk about this too, and I think of the evolution for that community, for the registered investment advisor, is there has there ever been a better time to go down that path to leave a broker dealer behind? I don't think there has been. The broker dealers are hinder so much the use of modern technology and artificial intelligence. [40:49] JD: Oh, we're going to talk about AI in a bit. [40:51] Chad: I think there's no better time than now being I opened it for this to be a registered investment. [40:56] Jason: It's certainly a one way street. So this is something I'd be curious if anybody listening or if any of you guys know know. I've never heard of somebody who after going into the other space being a [41:08] JD: registered goes back to the RIA channel. Are you saying being a registered goes back dealer? [41:16] Jason: But no one goes into that channel and then decides like man, I want to go back to cetera. That sounds like an awesome life. No, you know, it never happens. Right? [41:24] JD: But my compliance officer was so fun back at that broker dealer. They were great to hang out with. I'm kidding. I'm just a bad joke. [41:32] Chad: No, you don't see it. [41:34] Jason: No, you don't. [41:35] JD: That is very interesting. Let's keep this, let's keep this moving along. I'm yet stuck in this con, which is great. In this conversation on a another headline we talked about Aaron Shum Invest well and billion dollar valuations. So speaking of billion dollar evaluations and awesome entrepreneurs integrated pension services. Brandon, you do not have this. This headline has exciting news to announce that they have acquired. Oh God. I got a drink for this. BDS Consulting Group. So William Hackler and Jason Grant. Congratulations to you guys for purchasing that company. And I have no idea the size and scope or whatever. Jason actually made me put this in in our, in our headlights. We'll move on from that. Could you imagine though, Will Hackler coming into your office just with his shorts on and his visor and saying hey, I want to buy you. [42:37] Chad: We're gonna buy you. [42:40] JD: Guy only wears shorts, Jason. He's not using cool words like you he's just like, hey, man, he doesn't know what. He doesn't know what an oligopy is. There he is. Give me four Baby Ruths and a pack of Twizzlers. Congrats to Hackler for that purchase. That's awesome. Good for him. Have you guys seen that? The securities and Exchange Commission has raised the hundred dollar gift for financial advisors to 300. So what does this mean now? This means that, by the way, it means that they, they understand now that shit's more expensive. So for 100 bucks you can't get someone something. Fair enough. I would argue that now you can take them to, you can take your client to a better golf course. Does that resonate? Is that fine? Does that make sense? [43:33] Jason: No, that would be. [43:35] JD: I think that's not a gift. That's. That's entertainment. I, I misinterpreted this headline originally. I thought it was. I've always been held back on what I can give to a financial advisor, Jason. Yeah, I've tried to give gifts to advisors and many of them is, oh, I, I cannot accept this. It's beyond this amount. But I tried to research that today and I'm not certain that there's a FINRA rule about that. Am I wrong? Like, do you know anything about what, what an advisor can. [44:12] Jason: Yeah, no, they're. We're bound by the same thing, so. It's funny, I, I was on a podcast like a handful of years ago and you know, I didn't have like a decent mic. I just sounded like total garbage. And I like Chad. Well, like, I probably do today too for that. But none of that. [44:28] JD: You sound great. You sound phenomenal. [44:30] Jason: This great MacBook Pro technology. But. So this advisor, who, who I knew, he sent me a nice, like a mic, like a USB mic plug and just. Pretty nice little gift, right? It's good. Look at our gift. [44:40] JD: Right? [44:41] Jason: And awful. What did I. Mike, Mike. Mike is not an acronym. [44:48] JD: The connection part. What do you plug it into? What's. [44:51] Jason: Oh, USB mic, Universal Serial Bus. [44:57] JD: By the way, Jason, just for reference, unless you're filling that thing off screen where we can't see, that cup should be gone by this point. [45:04] Chad: Hey, you, you get. You told him sips at the beginning. It used to be that we had to take an entire shot. [45:11] JD: Keep going, Jason. How much are we allowed to throw at you guys? [45:14] Jason: This is, this was five and a half ounces to start with. I don't know, there's maybe one and a half ounces now. So I, I better not ever Step it up. Yeah. [45:23] Chad: Stay in the room tonight. [45:24] Jason: Hey, how close are you to Dallas, JD can. You want to come hang out? [45:27] JD: Dallas, Three hours. I think he's just gonna hop on his private jet and head over. Can you send yours to him, Jason? [45:36] Jason: What's that? [45:37] JD: Can you send your. [45:38] Chad: Your helicopter over to him? [45:39] Jason: I have no such things. I'm a simple. I'm a simple man. [45:42] JD: Two billion dollar value. Tell me that. Okay, let's. Let's move on. 100 to 300. That's great news. Fun, fun, fun. Let's do you. Jason, do you know what the wheel of ice is? [45:56] Jason: No. What's the wheel of ice? Tell me more. [45:59] JD: You're about to see it. [46:04] Justin: Gotta be Mark again, right? Jd? [46:07] Jason: Last week. [46:09] Chad: I'm not feeling great. I don't want this tonight. I knew it. [46:13] JD: Chad, Chad, Chad. Seriously. Hey, hey, Chad. I'll do. I will do it for you if you don't want it. You're not feeling good. [46:20] Chad: I do not. [46:21] JD: Chad's not feeling good, everybody. Okay. In other news. [46:25] Chad: Thanks, Mark. [46:26] JD: I like to call this guy Freddy B. I'll drink for that. Fred Barnstein has come back. He has a new article out there called 401K is an illusion. And let me quote his article here. Time is an illusion. The only thing that is real is the present moment. The past and the future do not exist. But without society agreeing on dates and times, it would be hard to function or understand history. Good point. He then goes on to say, money is an illusion and 401k plans are an illusion. This will come as no shock to everyone, but I just found out that Freddie B. I'll drink again. Just got back from a 30 day silent meditation trip. You know, remember when he was on our show? Okay, okay, buddy, slow down a little bit. Slow down here. He's really feeling his meditation trip on this. On this blog post he did. My question for our guest is beyond the whole 401k is an illusion. He talks about 401k 3.0 and the concept of convergence. And for us in the 401k world, what convergence means is we've historically been selling 401k plans through these workplace solutions right through the employer. And now we're thinking, hey, we've got all these participants attention. Let's sell them some adjacent. Let's sell them some wealth management, some financial planning. You know, we've got the best access to all these people through their actual job. And Fred thinks that this is going to change the world. A lot of people in our Industry think it's going to change the world. I want to hear from you. Jason Wenk on. As a spokesperson for financial advisors, wealth managers, financial planners, non 401k advisors, what you think about us starting to play in your sandbox? [48:36] Jason: Well, so, so first of all, I think there's already been, I mean, to many degrees. I think this is something Fidelity's already been doing for. [48:42] JD: Oh, and Power's been doing it. Fidelity, yes. [48:45] Chad: Agreed. [48:46] Jason: Right. So. So it's actually a bit. Yeah, it's probably a bit overdue that, you know, sort of independent players start doing this as well. In many ways I'd say like, if you think about the flywheel at Fidelity, it's probably the most like obvious ex here where I believe you guys, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think they're. They're probably like the largest 401k, you know, administrator. [49:08] JD: I think they're largest in terms of a assets under management check swing. Maybe not total plans and that type of stuff, but yeah, I think maybe assets. [49:18] Justin: Right. [49:20] Jason: And so think about. So, so they have all these plans and all these participants and then think about what they did to Pantera the last year so that they were like, yeah, I don't know if we want [49:30] JD: these advisors shut them down. They didn't let. [49:31] Jason: Yeah, I really want these advisors being able to see these plans because if the advisors can see all these plans and how are we going to get the rollovers and then cross sell all these participants into all of our other asset management products, our insurance and blah, blah, blah. [49:44] JD: They're keeping water in their moat, man. Yeah, they didn't want to. [49:47] Jason: They don't blame them. But this is basically what they're. They've been doing. It's. It's made them my best guess, right? They're private, none of us know, but probably the most valuable financial services company in America. Like probably by a lot. I mean their assets are like 50% more than Schwab's and Schwab's $150 billion public company. So it's probably not unreasonable to think that Fidelity is a $250 billion private company. It's crazy. And their moat's insane because they've got a flywheel. Right? They've basically got all these participants that are constantly coming into the workforce and then they've got people coming out the back end of the plan into their financial rollovers. Right? It's. It's a. And so they said this like evergreen structure where they're just like constantly making Money, whereas everyone else has to kind of go find a point in time and, and insert their product there. They've just said we're gonna own the whole life expectancy of the client's financial life. So, yeah, I think, like, for sure it seems logical. [50:45] JD: I mean, but, but Jason, you're, you're talking high level and I appreciate that. Speak on behalf of the registered investment advisors that use altruist. Like should, should they be getting into the 401k game or should they be defending against the 401k game, trying to get into their game, like, speak on their behalf? [51:06] Jason: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's tricky because I'm sure you guys have seen some of the big rias. Mother. [51:11] JD: Okay, yeah, you can say on the show it's fine. [51:15] Jason: I have a few times. Don't worry. Those who know me well know that it's just part of my vocabulary. Yeah, Simon's a flat. That's a beautiful image. But yeah, some of the big players, like, they've been buying administrators and trying. They're basically trying to create their own mini versions of Fidelity, you know, and you can even argue that that's what Edelman Financial Engines tried to do. Like a lot of people have been trying at various levels of scale to kind of play in both worlds. [51:39] JD: Convergence. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, Empower. Empower bought personal capital for, correct me if I'm wrong, a billion dollars. I think. [51:46] Jason: Yeah, I think it was that. Yeah. [51:48] Chad: And they've, and they've done well with it. To your point, J.D. that you, you mentioned earlier is why do we keep taking them business when we know that they're trying to pull it away from us on the back end? And, and I think it's number one. These are very large gorillas and people want to work with them. And when you're looking at trying to set a client up into a plan that they recognize, Fidelity and Empower are two very easy paths to go down. The other thing which you've heard me defend them in the past is most of the registered investment advisors don't want the small stuff that, that these record keepers are chewing up. [52:24] JD: In terms of the small accounts. Yeah. Less than you want to deal with 100k or less than 200k. Yeah, yeah. [52:31] Chad: And those, those individuals need help. They do. And so if the record keepers are going to step in and use technology and try to try to create some, some ease for those individuals to roll money into an individual retirement account, then go for it. [52:46] Jason: Jason, I would have loved to have bought guideline, but it's worth. I mean I brought it up to my board a couple times. Like that would have been a business I would have, I would have bought. And for that very reason, basically. Like, you know, we have nearly 6, 000 independent advisors. [52:58] JD: That was a baller move like, like I'm psyched right now on what you just said. You'd have loved to have bought guideline. You brought it up to your board. That's very Private Jet esque. I like that to get into the record keeping game is what you're talking about. Like altruists. [53:15] Jason: Well, so a big part of it though is like, is that notion of you've got, you know, again, they're still relatively subscale, but let's just say it's hundreds of thousands of plan participants. Maybe it's million, I don't know. Whatever it grows to of hundreds. [53:27] JD: They guideline had 60,000 plus plans. [53:32] Jason: Plans. [53:33] JD: Yeah, plans. [53:34] Justin: Yeah. [53:34] Jason: So they had to have. What would you say that is a million plus participants? [53:37] Chad: I was gonna say they averaged like [53:39] JD: 15 participants per, they were small, they were small plans. [53:42] Jason: Okay. So still that's still 7, 800,000 participants. And if that number grows over time and the balances grow over time. But the point on my end was like, I was like, hey, this would be kind of cool also as a mechanism to refer those people to advisors. Because you think about like in our world, you know, we, we have this like, you know, we have a super diverse set of advisors. Like we have an advisor for anything you can imagine, right? Somebody's like, you know, hey, I, I, whatever. Like we had people that all they did was focus on like barbers, right? Or tattoo artists or like surfers or literally, I'm not kidding. [54:17] JD: Like if you're a financial advisor out there and you're listening in, don't listen to Jason. Do not focus on surfers. That's a dumb move. [54:25] Jason: I know. Listen, I live in Manhattan beach now, J.D. [54:28] JD: and there's no surf in Manhattan Beach. [54:30] Jason: Jason El Porto, you have a bunch of guys that don't know how to surf with their longboards. They, they pull up central. They in their ineos, Grenadiers or whatever. And you know, and all they have is money. They definitely, hey bro. [54:44] JD: I grew up in Santa Cruz, California and Silicon Valley took over my hometown. [54:50] Jason: Lovers Point's still one of my favorite breaks in California. [54:53] JD: That's a little Carmel area. Yeah, Monterey. [54:55] Jason: That's gets too big for me. I'm a bit of a, so you know, the, the, those, those waves kill people Just north of Pacific Grove. So you got to be a. [55:03] JD: You know, we'll talk surfing in a bit. [55:05] Jason: Another. Another day, another time. [55:06] JD: Yeah. Yeah, that I, I, I like that. That's very interesting. Let's. I'm actually getting a little wasted here, which is good. Let's play a game, shall we? The I had an epiphany a long time ago to create the most original and awesomest game ever because I have a much stronger brain than Mark Palmini does. It's the no dope game, [55:36] Chad: Chad. [55:37] JD: If you got a dip at some point. E dip. [55:39] Chad: I was just about to type. I'm so sad. [55:42] JD: I'm going to miss the artificial. We don't need you anymore, Chad. [55:46] Chad: You're fine. [55:47] JD: I know. [55:47] Chad: Doesn't mean I don't want to learn [55:49] JD: the way this game works, Jason, because I created it. So I would know is that I'm going to ask you first, as our guest, a question about pop culture things in the real world. You let me know if you're Nope. On it or you're dope on it, and they're gonna tell me why. Okay. The first. This is a little. A little edgy episode of this or segment of this. So Adderall. Okay. Are you no for dub on Adderall, Jason? I heard. [56:26] Jason: I'm a nope. I don't, I don't need it. But, you know, God bless those people who do. You can drink a lot more alcohol on Adderall. I've heard. [56:34] JD: Didn't know this. We just learned something new from you. [56:36] Chad: I'm not sure I want to drink more alcohol, though. It's a cheaper date when I can. [56:40] JD: Let's put that on LinkedIn tomorrow. Jason of Alra says I. [56:45] Jason: Hey. I, I've never, Never partaken. But I have some friends. [56:48] JD: Oh, no. We're just gonna cl. We're not gonna, we're gonna leave that part out, Jason. We're gonna clip the verse card. Adderall apparently is. People are, like, very productive on this. Justin. You're. You're an edgy young guy. [57:03] Justin: Adderall, I mean, I'm all for it. [57:07] JD: I, I had. [57:08] Justin: They wanted to subscribe it to me or they were thinking about it, but hey, if it helps, it helps. [57:14] JD: And Chad, how long have you been taking it? [57:17] Chad: I've never, I've never touched an Adderall pill. Not once in my life. [57:22] Justin: I never have either marked. [57:24] JD: You speak for the people you know. Hey, I'm a little distracted. It's hard for. I'm not Jason. Wank. I can't start a 2 billion dollar company if you can give me a magic pill to help me out a little bit. Well, the way you're positioning it now makes me think that I, maybe I [57:41] Chad: should start using it. [57:42] JD: So I don't know. [57:44] Justin: I'll let you know next week. [57:47] JD: Okay, great Mark. Sales numbers are gonna go way up. Yeah, you won. You can't go any lower. So actually you guys are crushing it. Okay, next. Next over. Dope to you, Jason. On the same trend and this is a big one. Zins, like people are packing tobacco in their mouth and this, this has infiltrated financial services like I am playing golf with guys now. Advisors. And this is a constant thing I'm seeing. I'm a 54 year old old man. I don't get it. But Zins. Nope. Or dope? [58:28] Jason: I mean I'm an. I'm a nope. But I have a 25 year old son and he's like a double dope. [58:34] JD: Yeah, there you go. Right? [58:35] Jason: He's probably, he's probably through, you know, going through three tens a day. [58:39] JD: My youngest is 21. I've got two older daughters. My youngest is a son. He's our internal sales consultant and I'm, I'm feeling like there's a circle in his pocket at, at times I, I need to watch him a little more closely. But I'm gonna go back again. Same kind of topic to Justin Silent J. [59:01] Justin: No, I'm nope on that for sure. [59:03] JD: Why? Explain why you don't want a little nicotine in your life. A little zip, a little addicted. [59:09] Jason: Jesus, you could be just like Tucker Carlson. [59:12] Justin: Back to cigarette. [59:13] JD: Yeah, thank you, Jason. I didn't want to go there. I've heard Tucker Carlson talk about like this makes me a superhuman. [59:21] Jason: Exactly. [59:22] Chad: Yeah. [59:23] JD: Chad, have you ever put one in your mouth? [59:27] Chad: I. I don't know if I, I do not. I don't use Zen, but I do, I do and at times use grinds, which is coffee grinds enough. Oh pack that you can throw in with. It's got some touring in it. [59:38] JD: So that's caffeine. I think it's more. There's no nicotine mark. Have you ever obsessed with that? Have you ever in your life put a Zen in your mouth? Don't lie. No, I can tell you I haven't. I. Yeah, I'm not. [59:54] Jason: It's not me. [59:55] JD: It's not. I can't do it. I think that's Brandon chiming in. I want Adderall. Sins. All right, Jason, you're in, you're in. Texas. And this is the. The guy who thinks he's fancy because he bought a ranch in Texas. Are you? No per. Dope on skid steers. [1:00:18] Jason: Oh, very, very, very dope on skid steers. [1:00:21] Chad: Not be dope on a skid stand. [1:00:23] JD: Thank you. It's a consensus. Everyone agrees. We'll go there. [1:00:26] Chad: You're going to buy one, aren't you? [1:00:28] JD: I. They're like 80 grand, bro. Like, it's no joke, but I really do want a John Deere skid steer. Like, that's my dream right now. [1:00:38] Jason: So, jd, you can come up to my. My farm in Michigan sometime. I own so much farm equipment and farming, it's. It'll blow your mind. [1:00:46] JD: Jason, I'm starting to fall in love with you on a lot of levels. [1:00:49] Chad: Be careful. [1:00:53] JD: Okay, last one. And this is straight to Jason and only Jason, because we know how everyone else feels about this. Nope. Or dope on Nate Moody's hot sister. All right, we'll move on. Okay. [1:01:12] Jason: I saw the chat comments and I mean, I don't know. I mean, I. I don't. Can you drop a pick in that thing? [1:01:19] JD: Someone can. Come on, someone. Throw one. Throw a link. [1:01:24] Chad: I'm out. See you, buddy. [1:01:25] JD: See you later, Chad. [1:01:26] Chad: See you guys. [1:01:27] JD: Later, Chad. [1:01:27] Chad: Thank so much, Jason. [1:01:29] JD: Jason, let's kind of wrap up with the. I'm going to call it juicy drama. Altruist. Very successful company. Obviously on your way to big things. But now you got this, what I heard some media call your side project, which, by the way, resonated with me, because I have a side project, AI company called waves. And. And so you have Hazel. But you are. [1:01:57] Justin: Jason's going to buy you. [1:01:59] JD: He will buy you tomorrow. He should actually. [1:02:03] Chad: Guideline was at a discount. [1:02:05] JD: Yeah. You are vacationing in Mexico with a advisor buddy of yours. Slash. I think he plays a role at Altruist, too. But you're hanging out with your buddy in Mexico and news breaks out. And I'm going to read from this. Altruist spooked Wall Street. Tuesday, February 10, after analysts zeroed in on the firm's artificial intelligence powered tax management software. They saw it as a disruptive innovation that could eventually upend. Listen up, people up. And wealth management. That triggered a sell off of Lincecomb Private ledger. Financial holdings down 8.3%. Raymond James down 8%. Schwab. Sorry, Chuck, down 7 1/2%. Jason, somehow your release of Hazel is some kind of snowball down the hill moment for artificial intelligence. And. And the use amongst financial advisors. Did this catch you off guard in, in Mexico and what the is going on? [1:03:23] Jason: Yeah, man, it's a cool week. So by the way, the. Not that I'm, I, I don't want to be like, I'm not like the grim reaper or anything, but $120 billion of market cap got wiped out in three days because of the. [1:03:36] JD: Why do, why are you smiling when you say that? You. [1:03:38] Jason: Pretty cool, man. It's pretty cool. [1:03:40] Chad: Think about it. [1:03:40] Jason: Unless you're a shareholder of those companies or an executive entering to you, they're [1:03:44] JD: gonna get it back. It's all gonna come back the other way. [1:03:48] Jason: It hasn't so far. It's been nine days and the things are still down 100. At one point they were down 135 billion. [1:03:58] JD: That's so odd. Jason's proud of that right now. [1:04:01] Justin: He's got to be the biggest guest we've had on the show at this point, right? [1:04:06] JD: Listen, seriously, when you're in Mexico, were you caught off guard? You didn't see this coming? [1:04:09] Jason: Yes. Let's talk about Mexico. So first of all, so first of all, have you guys been to Z Montenejo before? [1:04:13] Justin: No. [1:04:14] JD: No, I, I've been to some fancy Four Seasons resorts in Mexico, but not the one. [1:04:18] Jason: This is not fancy. This is like, this is like where you go to on a surf trip, right? Like, it's like San Pancho if you've ever been there. It's a good, yeah, Shawshank, everyone knows it from that. Anyway, it's an epic place. Is basically like 2/3 of the way between Puerto Vallarta and Acapulco. And you've got like a killer bay for chilling. And then you've got like really good waves off from kind of like a south, you know, kind of facing jetty that the, the kind of bay comes off from. So anyway, water's warm, it's killer, it's, it's chill. And so, so I was only there for a few days. It was supposed to be like a three quick kind of three day getaway, get a direct flight from, from la and, and I, I had like one just super chill day. And then day two, I went, did like a little morning run, little morning swim, went to get some breakfast. And I look at my phone and it just marks. [1:05:08] JD: Sorry. Jason hit pause for a second. Mark. Can you imagine him? Two billion dollar valuation entrepreneur in Mexico goes for, it's classic, right? The morning jog, the morning swim, then a little, little cappuccino. Okay, continue on. [1:05:22] Jason: I don't, I don't, I'M not. [1:05:24] JD: I'm not picturing a cappuccino at all. I'm picturing, like, Verona next to, like, some eggs and beans and some. I just want to know, Jason, were you in a speedo? Ownership? [1:05:36] Jason: The nude resort. Nude resort, bro. [1:05:39] JD: You got the news? You got the news. [1:05:40] Jason: It was a very basic way, but I. So I got the news in the first thing. I had, like. I had like this. This text from a reporter at Bloomberg, and I was like, who is this person? Like, how'd they get my cell number? Right? And so I then get some texts from some friends and some people, and I. And I. And I actually. I actually got sick to my stomach when I first saw the news because I was like, oh, man. [1:06:01] JD: Like, what happened? [1:06:02] Jason: Well, part of it was like, you [1:06:03] JD: weren't trying to break things. You didn't want to know. [1:06:06] Jason: Yeah, I mean, full support of it is like, I was like. I started to kind of worry. I was like, this. This might really upset some people, obviously, and some probably very powerful people are not gonna be very happy. We didn't intentionally, obviously, like, try to, like, cause a global market sell off in financial stocks. So I was a little bit like. And it just felt like. Honestly, it didn't feel like it was real. It felt like it was like a crazy, crazily well orchestrated joke or something like that. And then I called the reporter from Bloomberg and it was very real. And so then my vacation was over. So it lasted a day. And then they said to work the other day and a half and then flew home. [1:06:41] JD: What kicked it off? Like, certain users, like, how did it snowball to the effect? [1:06:47] Jason: Well, yeah, so basically my understanding is that it started happening within the Bloomberg terminal. So Bloomberg terminals have a chat function and you can, you know, message other users and, you know, you can share, you know, research documents, you know, things so forth. And so there started, basically, I call, like, Bloomberg terminal chatter around, like, whoa, have people seen this release? And then, you know, and then it started to, you know, kind of like, you know, turn into this much bigger story. Like, okay, well, like, who is altruist? Like, nobody's heard of us, of course. Like, we're still relatively small, right? And so then when they started looking at, like, who we are, they're like, wait a minute, this is actually like a B2B company. So this is the significance that I think most, even a lot of the stories missed it. But basically the gist is like, an AI tool is not going to, like, crush Lynsco private ledger, right? Like, AI, okay. 12. 12 acronyms. Acronyms. [1:07:44] JD: One more. He went for the Linsco private ledger, and then I got the other one. He sandwiched it between artificial intelligence. I don't want to interrupt you, but [1:07:54] Chad: I'm just curious because you were like, [1:07:55] JD: oh, here we go. [1:07:56] Chad: Back to work. [1:07:57] JD: Don't you use an out of office? [1:08:00] Jason: No, not really. I, I, I. So, so. [1:08:02] JD: By the way, the ballers don't mark the ballers. Can't you just be like, yeah, that, that's great. Things are going on, but I'll get back to you. Greg G. Said it. I'll drink. He's a founder, bro. They're badass 24. 7. [1:08:17] Jason: Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's intense. But by the way, I, I think of this every time. I dropped it like a shitty link in the, in the chat. But do you guys know. Do, do you, jd, do you know Frank Kern? Like, personally, do you know who he is? [1:08:29] JD: Frank Kern. I have no idea who that is, [1:08:32] Jason: like, from the first time I ever saw your mug shot. Pick on social. Frank Burns. Frank Kern. K, E, R, N. Frank Kern. [1:08:42] Chad: Closer. [1:08:43] JD: Close. Greg, we'll check it out. I don't know. [1:08:45] Jason: Google. [1:08:46] JD: He must be a Kern. He must be a very handsome man. [1:08:50] Jason: Frank was my business coach from La Jolla. Great surfer back in, like, the. [1:08:55] JD: Hey, I was the La Jolla High School surf Coach back in 1996. [1:09:01] Jason: Frank's like, your age. And, dude, you guys look. You're basically his doppelganger. You guys basically look, that's this image that pops up right here. For your information, that may as well be Frank Kern. [1:09:10] JD: Okay, can I, can I ask you about that Frank? [1:09:13] Jason: Does that not make you guys freak out? [1:09:15] JD: Wow. I tried to suppress that personality. [1:09:21] Jason: Seriously, I love it. [1:09:25] JD: What if he was my gay lover? Okay, no, what I want to know is we all know that artificial intelligence exists. Like, we get it. We're seeing it on the news. And when I say we, I mean the financial services industry. Like, we, we totally understand. I think, at least because I have a company that's focused on this just like you. Why is it so shocking all of a sudden? Why did Hazel create this moment that I'm starting to feel like everyone's all of a sudden is going like, okay, this is going to be real. Like, financial advisors are actually going to use this. Because I'm kind of sitting here going like, no, man, like, of course we're going to use this. But somehow you had this moment where people now believe I'm talking in general Sense A lot of people believed that. Okay, wow, this is coming like Hazel is somehow an example of that Advisors are actually going to use this stuff. So maybe you can kind of weave into that what Hazel actually is. And, and I want to dive into this a bit. [1:10:36] Jason: Yeah. So, yeah, I'll try to be like, kind of, you know, not ramble on here. But what I would say is that the first tools that advisors used, the first artificial intelligence tools. There we go. Yeah, yeah. Finally. It takes a couple hours on it. But the, the most common one was a note taker. So. Right. It would join your meeting, take some notes. Exactly. But if you think about, like, the productivity gain from that, it's actually pretty nominal. [1:11:02] JD: Oh, it's cool. It's great. [1:11:03] Jason: It's, it's cool. But it's like, if you think about, it's like, like, what's the real, like, return on that? It's not actually that high. It's like, because Michael Kit has had this one article, I'm sure he was like, he's like, no one was taking notes to begin with. So all that these note takers did is they started taking the notes that the humans weren't taking in the first place. So this didn't really in. It didn't like, create a return. It's like saved any time because they weren't spending any time on notes. [1:11:29] JD: But to counter, to counter, Kids says, and he's a past guest on the show, I, I, I actually derive a lot of value from some of those Zoom artificial intelligence summaries. If you look at them from the right lens, it can be very valuable in terms of. [1:11:46] Jason: Yeah, but anyway, so, so what I'd say is like, the, the, like those are the first tools got some broad adoption. Again, they're not, not helpful. Right. Like, they're, they're, they're useful. But if we were actually doing some type of return calculation, we'd find the return is again, to your point. Yeah, they're great. But it's not like these things are 100x returns. The note taker is a nice efficiency and it's incremental. [1:12:13] JD: Yeah. Nice little supplement. [1:12:15] Jason: So I think the thing that made Hazel kind of jump out is the way we built it from an architecture perspective again before the, like schematic here. But is what it's doing is if you drop in a tax document or any document, it also synthesizes all your data across every connected platform. It will first it will parse and read the document. Step one, Step two is it will then after understanding the data, it will, it will search the Internet to find like sources of truth around that data. So like the irs, right? Internal Revenue Code, you know, state test date laws, municipal codes, blah, blah, blah, blah. [1:12:59] JD: That is sources. [1:13:01] Jason: Yeah. Anyway, I must said something there about Revenue Service. I thought it was a real, a real thing. I thought that was just always. I thought it was just three letters, not a real actual thing. But so in the end, like, getting to the point, what Hazel will do is give really, really good tax analysis. So it'll summarize and now give you analysis and it will tell you what to do to make your taxes lower. And it's in every single time. It creates an output. It's custom. So when it's. Once it does this. Since the taking of all the data, it literally writes code in Python specific to that unique situation for that client to create a bespoke, like one of a kind tax report for that client. So unlike other tax software, like you transcribe a shit ton of data and then you get the same canned thing. [1:13:48] JD: Yeah, right. You're basically. I'm hoping my not to drop your tax return. [1:13:54] Jason: Jd, let's get you on there. I want to see what happens. [1:13:56] JD: Not the promo. Oh, it can't handle my tax return. But not the promo. Not the promo. [1:14:01] Jason: He hasn't filed one in since 2000. [1:14:05] JD: Not to promo my. My own company. My partner, Tony, I don't know if he's online here, but your whole like Python coding thing, like, really resonates with me on what's going on here. But what I. So what I'm hearing from you is sass. Oh, I drink for that. Software. Software as a service is something that as business owners, we've always bought and paid for and subscribed to for so long to solve so many of our business problems and give us like, tangible outputs. I don't know if everyone understands this. I know Jason does. So I'm gonna help you. I want you to try to explain this to them. Is. Is this AI engineering and development kind of like, it's kind of taking the place of that, isn't it? Like, now we can make things and maybe we're making software that's fine. We're making software that's built by and backed by artificial intelligence. But we're kind of at a precipice where that whole chessboard is being thrown over and starting again. I know with waves and what Tony's doing, we're building software solutions that would have taken me months, maybe years, and I would have to Contract it out to people in, you know, a foreign country or whatever to do it affordably. And now we can build this in a matter of days or weeks. Is that, does that resonate with you, what I'm saying? [1:15:44] Jason: So, yeah, so I'd say like, yeah, like two thoughts on that. So one is your dead right on like development in general? Yeah, I would not want to be. If you think like using like Kitsis again, bring him back into the conversation, right? He has that fintech solutions map that has like, like a hundred conferences, like a thousand different logos of all of these software companies. And look, I wouldn't want to be any of those companies. Every, almost everything on there could be rebuilt and replaced in a matter of weeks. [1:16:15] JD: Not by anybody. You got to know what you're doing. I mean. [1:16:17] Jason: Yeah, look, or again, if you think about like the way Hazel's built is each one of those products is effectively an agent. [1:16:24] JD: Right. [1:16:24] Jason: So we built, our first agent was a tax agent. What does it do? It analyses tax returns and other tax documents and synthesizes all your account data, positions, tax lots, you know, qualified plans versus non qualified plans. And it gives you very custom, beautiful data. The output effectively would be something you could, you maybe in the past could have gotten from like Goldman Sachs. Private wealth management paid tens of thousands of dollars for and you know, a dozen people worked 100 hours and Hazel does that for 125 bucks across your entire business. So that. [1:16:55] JD: We're just humans, bro. Like we're only, we're only capable of so much. So. [1:17:00] Jason: So I think you're. I think you're right. Like one, software development is easier and two, the output like the, the cost to do something that is effectively like the 99th percentile of quality and output is now 99 cheaper than it was before. It's incredibly disruptive. And this is why those stocks all craters, because they're going to. How in the hell are these companies going to charge the prices they're charging? Considering now AI can do their job better than 98% of the people for 99% cheaper. [1:17:29] JD: Yeah. You just referenced really quickly that like software stocks got fucking hammered recently, right? In the stock market based on everything that we're talking about. But can I ask you on the more positive side, and this is cliche, I apologize, but I think we need to repeat it for everyone listening in is artificial intelligence as like the job destruction thing. Like I'm assuming you're in the camp of. No, no, no. Hazel doesn't ruin financial advisors jobs. This allows financial advisors to be way more fucking efficient, productive, scalable, valuable. Is that your vision for artificial intelligence and financial services, that this is going to make us better, not. Not take away our value? [1:18:23] Jason: 100%. So, yeah, look, my biggest gripe in, by the way, go Pistons. Whoever's had to run to watch them destroy the Knicks anyway, I can't keep [1:18:33] JD: up on the sports. I got a schedule around team. Go team, Go Sports. [1:18:42] Jason: I love it. So, so, so you're. You're right. What, what I would say is like the. So the founding premise of Altruist, right? So our, Our. Our motto, if you. If you like to paint it on the wall, was, you know, to make financial advice better, more affordable and accessible to everybody. I grew up in, like, a relatively poor family in a farming community in west Michigan. Nobody I know has any money. Like, I never met anybody who had any real money ever in my life growing up. And if you think about financial services, I think I said financial. That. Is that the. No, no word? [1:19:14] Chad: Yeah. [1:19:15] JD: Oh, my God. Mark's off. [1:19:18] Jason: Oh, darn. [1:19:20] JD: Got it. [1:19:21] Jason: Anyway, a big gripe with our industry is like, you could say, like, most things are. Are hard to get access to if you're not already rich. Like, how do you get access to a great. A great, great planner? The costs are kind of high. Like, who wants to pay 1%, you know, of their other assets, you know, for all of eternity compounded, you know, that's never. [1:19:45] JD: That's not going to sustain itself. [1:19:46] Jason: Right. And then. And then the results are inconsistent. I mean, like, some people have good experiences with bad experiences. Like, it's like, hard to deliver consistent experiences. So you know what I love about tools like Hazel is that it makes really, really advanced tax planning available to anybody. Like, there's no, like, friction point where [1:20:07] JD: you'd say, but, Jason, can I need much money? Hazel's not direct to consumer. This is advisor tool, right? [1:20:15] Chad: 100. [1:20:16] Jason: Yeah. So the idea is like, look, I want advisors to no longer have to make compromises. Like most advisors might say, look, I can only serve 150 clients or 100 clients or whatever they're their limit is. And the reason is because all the stuff they do takes too much time. [1:20:32] JD: And so, like, I apologize to interrupt you, but that's what I do. So what you're saying is you're agreeing with me in that? No, no, it's efficiency. It's. It's allowing an advisor maybe to. Instead of having 100 clients, they might end up having 300 clients someday because of the artificial intelligence tools that they Use and, and, and, and work with. Right. I mean, it's not going to kill their job. It's going to make them better at what they do 100%. [1:21:04] Jason: And the other thing too is that, like, think about what you just said about software development. It used to be you had to go study computer science, maybe have a master's degree in computer science and learn object oriented programming. And it was like, it was like mythical to the normal humans, like building software. And now you can just go say, hey, I kind of want to have this thing built. Like, go build it it for me. And like a 90 complete version gets built for you in five minutes. So if you're in the past, like if you were a financial planner. Sorry, I'm, I finally. [1:21:35] JD: That was a good word. See, Bam. [1:21:38] Jason: Yeah, that is a killer word. But so anyways, if this is your job, you know, you don't have to be a CFP with 20 years experience. Another acronym. Guys, what's going on here? [1:21:49] JD: We're almost done. We're gonna. What's going on here is a episode record. Jason 18. No, he's not near the record. [1:21:59] Chad: We reset it every year. [1:22:01] JD: Right? I hear you. I hear you. The pretty good. [1:22:04] Jason: A pretty good planner can now be like a 99th percentile planner. Like, they're gonna have all the tools and you don't have to be like, in New York or San Francisco. You could be like anybody in your elite. [1:22:14] JD: No, that planner isn't going to no code code. They're going to rely on people like you to build a product. Right? I mean, so. But I'm with you. I'm totally with you. I, I feel like the world is changing in a, in a fast way in terms of software. I don't know about your businesses, but I have a small business, you know, 35 employees. We talked earlier. North of 5 million in revenue, I might, I probably spend over six figures on software. Probably a lot more than that, like in the eye, you know. And so I'm already hitting moments right now with artificial intelligence because of my other company where I'm like, wait a second, we just built that for a client over there. I could build that for myself and relieve myself of a $40,000 a year bill that I pay for this or that. So I just want everyone listening in to like, pay attention, that things are changing. And back to the Hazel moment. Thank God that all these reporters and news people think this is somehow like this moment where everything shifted. Because I've been waiting for this moment. Jason, of like, when are we as financial advisors going to say, okay, this is not just a fun topic to talk about. Like, oh, do you. Do you go into chat. Oh, God, drank chat, GPT, to like, help it write you an email or a blog post? That used to frustrate the out of me. Like, that is not artificial intelligence. I mean, it is, but I'm like, but we can do so much more with it. So think of all the software use all the outputs, all the tangible things that you're giving to clients. And so kudos to Hazel for creating that moment, I guess. I guess. [1:24:05] Chad: Well, thank you. [1:24:06] Jason: But by the way, I would say, like, on the. So. So if there's one takeaway, like I would say for anybody listening or you guys or any of us that are building right, is that the market's not that interested in incrementally better things. So if something's 10 or 15% better, it's not going to move the needle. But this is why, like, there could be. There could be thousands of products built and no one really notices. It doesn't make much of a difference what. What artificial intelligence has to do in order to, like, make this really big monumental impact is it has to do something that's radically transformational. So, like, I would key in onto, like, how I mentioned, can something be, like, orders of magnitude? So can something be like two or three or four times better than it ever was before at like 99% lower prices? So, I mean, it is so disruptive, you cannot ignore it. It's like the Seth Godin purple cow, right? It's like, it's impossible to ignore because, like, even the core Altruist platform, we've digitized everything. It's beautiful, it's elegant, it's really easy to use. But I could probably make the. I could probably make the case that it's 20 or 30% better than other custodians, and that's enough to win new entrants. [1:25:19] JD: So that's a regular business model that can succeed. You're seeing the new world that build [1:25:26] Jason: something that is 200, 300% better and 99% cheaper, and you will win for sure. [1:25:33] JD: You and I will have to talk offline. I could go into the night hours. We won't. We'll wrap this up. But I mean, I want to know, like, what you built it on. My understanding is that it's not built on a particular large language model. You can kind of toggle between what you want. We're doing the same thing at ways where our users can decide what they want. To use Claude or Anthropic or Gemini or what have you. But anyways, I, I, you and I'll talk offline. Sorry, everyone. And let's, let's wrap this up, shall we? Updates. Chad Johansson, he's not here, but Brandon, could you put up his. The creepy photo we like of the movie character guy? He is doing a webinar next Tuesday. This is a housekeeping moment. I'm wasted. Tuesday the 24th of February. February, yeah, yeah. That's the month we're in. At 10:00am Pacific, Chad will be doing our 4K expedition webinar. So tune into that RSVP if you can. And then Mark's gonna be doing one actually road guide the week after that, so pay attention to that. And our next retireholic show will be March 5th with Steve Wilkinson, the founder of K quotes and now 338 investment fiduciaries. I'm excited to have Steve on the show, but thank you to the audience that tune in tonight. Thank you to the people out on YouTube and X and LinkedIn and whatever watching this show later on. We love you. We appreciate you. Even though it's a little weird that you are into 401k. But we're okay with that and mostly, yeah. Thank you to you, Jason. Hey, bro. To come and spend some time with us tonight from your little dingy hotel room in Dallas. We really appreciate it. I, I have to say there's a couple things, me and you, that differentiate us. One is why did you cut your hair and, and shave your nice little beard you had going on? Like, that's a bad call. You shouldn't do that. [1:28:00] Jason: My beards, my beards turned gray. But I'll probably grow my hair back out. [1:28:04] JD: Look at that old guy. Look at them there to the left. [1:28:06] Jason: So, dude, that's what happens when you be, when you start companies and you raise a bunch of money and you work 100 hours a week, man, you go from looking like that five years ago to looking like me now. But I'll grow the hair back out, man. It'll give me, give me 12 months. I'll be. [1:28:19] JD: Please do, please do, please do. And the only other difference between you and I really is that my company is profitable and yours is not. Thank you, everyone, for tuning into Retireaholics. We will see you next time. No, Jason, seriously, thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Great time with you tonight. We are the Retire Hugs. We are changing the retirement plan industry one beer at a time. See you next time, motherfuckers. Peace out. Cheers, Jason. Thank you much. So.