401(k) Litigation Trends: What Courts Are Ruling Now

[0:00] JD: I was brought to you, everybody, by. By Tony Davis. Tony Davis did that master piece of video editing. Well done, Tony. Well done. Thank you so much. Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Retire Holics. You may not know this. You probably do. It probably seems very common sense, but a robe guy is a big thing. [0:26] Chad: Rope Guy has. [0:27] Mark: Wearing my roll right now. [0:29] Chad: Rope Guy has fans all over the world. [0:32] JD: Really? [0:33] Chad: I am. [0:34] JD: I am getting blasted with messages from people who want to know things about [0:39] Chad: Robe Guy, want to know more personal [0:41] JD: things about him, and get to know him and such. [0:44] Mark: You're making all of this up. [0:46] JD: When we go to conferences, everyone's like, where's the rogue guy? Where's the robe guy? Yes, Greg, he's an influencer. Yes. The senso. He's huge. Tony's a fanboy. Well, I wrote a song about Rob Guandom, and I got to switch to circle mode here on my mic, but it's a song, a story of Rogue Guy and his fanboy Hackler. [1:17] Justin: Turned on your original sound, right? [1:20] JD: I don't. It doesn't let me. [1:21] Chad: Yeah. [1:22] JD: Original sound on. [1:23] Mark: Good. [1:24] JD: Okay. It's a story of Rogue Guy and his fanboy hackler. A story of. Of forbidden 401k love. And let me pull up my music here. Here we go. Okay. And boom. [1:49] Speaker E: There. [1:56] Chad: Robe guy, the subject of fanboy fantasy Hackler wants him so badly drunk Stock tips in his dreams on LinkedIn he's stalking this boy's an open page, direct [2:16] JD: message he's so close now Hackler makes twice his wage. Don't stand, don't stand so don't stand so close to Mark. Don't stand, don't stand so don't stand so close to Mark. His robe is so smelly you know how bad it get Sometimes it's not so easy to drink so much you forget temptation, frustration so hot that robe guy on a scooter, he's flying he will get a black eye don't stand, don't stand so don't stand so close to Mark. [3:12] Chad: Don't stand, don't stand so close to Mark. There you go. Okay, let's see. [3:25] JD: Last. [3:26] Justin: I missed that gem. J.D. i apologize. [3:28] Chad: You missed it. I couldn't see. [3:30] Justin: Yeah, I had to run. Dylan got bit in the face by my dog because she was eating his napkin from dinner and she wouldn't let it go. And then I heard her snap. And then Dylan start crying. [3:41] JD: All right, well, you can take him [3:42] Chad: to the hospital after the show. Your priority is the show. Just tell him to put a rag on it or something. [3:48] JD: I gotta get out of circle mode. Hang on. [3:53] Chad: Last week's chat bar champ, Daniela Moises. [4:00] JD: Your order should be. Your doordash order should have arrived. Let's see what we got you here. Let me pull up the list. We got you from the old Chick Fil A spicy deluxe sandwich with pepper jack. A Chick Fil A chicken strips, A Chick Fil A chicken sandwich. I put a little mayo on there for you. Cookies and cream milkshake. A spicy southwest salad, an 8 ounce chick fil A sauce. I thought, hey, maybe you just want the sauce to keep around, you know? [4:34] Chad: A gallon of lemonade. Yep, they sell gallons of lemonade, so that's good Mac and cheese and some [4:43] JD: Chick Fil A waffle potato fries. [4:46] Chad: So there you go. [4:48] JD: Last week. [4:48] Speaker F: Do you set a budget when you do this? Or you just, like, start picking from the menu, whatever it is, try to [4:52] Chad: find the weirdest and. And some stuff that they can actually have for dinner? And, you know, I don't know if there's something weird there. [4:58] JD: I want to pick it. [4:59] Mark: Did you do a. Did you do a calorie calculator on this one? [5:03] Chad: No, I didn't. But it's got to be up there. It's got to be up there. [5:07] Mark: I think it's. We will be the daily limit. [5:10] JD: We will be playing chapter champion today. So guys, get ready for that. And you out there, you know how it works. Yeah. Blah, blah, blah. Beer. The episode mark. [5:20] Chad: You got beer. [5:20] JD: The episode honors this week. [5:22] Mark: Yeah, it's. [5:23] Justin: What you got? [5:25] Mark: I'm gonna try to angle it to the camera perfectly because it's. [5:29] Speaker F: It's a good. [5:29] Mark: It's. There we go. [5:31] JD: Numb. [5:31] Mark: Yeah. [5:33] Justin: Oh, and they even got van on there. Good stuff. [5:39] JD: Can I ask a question? I love hazy. Whatever the initials, by the way. Acro Sin starts now. [5:46] Mark: Oh, you caught yourself. [5:48] JD: Yes, but what is a double? What does that mean? Is. [5:51] Mark: It just means the alcohol is higher. So I think there's ranges, right? Like a normal is. Let's just call between like 4 and 6% and then it doubles like 8% or something. [6:05] Chad: Okay. [6:06] Justin: There's triples, too, but it has to do with how they store it and how long they let it. Hey, [6:17] Mark: we don't care about that. It's just a number. It's either higher because there's more alcohol or lower because there's not. [6:23] Chad: Do they have to pay, like, marketing [6:25] JD: rights to the movie? Because they're clearly using, like, the dog car and everything on there? [6:30] Mark: I don't know. They even, like, definitely on the, on the description, which if you want me to, I can read it. They, they, they rip from there. It's right here. Okay. Just when you think it couldn't be. Oh, sorry. Just when you think it couldn't possibly be any number, we go and do something like this. [6:54] Speaker E: Just when I think you couldn't possibly be any dumber, you go and do something like this [7:04] Chad: and totally redeem yourself. [7:08] Mark: Okay, well, that's what I just said. Moving on. And then I guess the description of the beer, I'm not gonna read it. And so that's good for it to be double. [7:17] Speaker F: It's got to have alcohol content between 7.6 and 10.6%. [7:21] JD: Okay, thanks for the research. That's basically right. [7:23] Mark: All right, I'm gonna. [7:24] Chad: How many rubs? [7:26] Mark: 4.4. [7:30] Chad: Wow. [7:30] Justin: Okay, that's high praise for Mark. [7:33] JD: 4.4 rubs. I like. I like it. All right, let's. Let's get straight into it. There's a lot of stuff I want to talk today. Headlines, Brandon. Headlines, please. I've. I've put together a list of headlines. The first one you can throw up there, Brandon, is participant data. Claims dismissed, an excessive fee suit. But I've grabbed a bunch of stuff from the old Nevin Adams. And as I kind of research what Nevin's been up to recently and the articles he's been written, I was blown away again at this man's dedication to his craft. He has got so many articles out there. Many of them are very detailed. He must put tons of hours of research into them. I'm not sure how many. How he has so many hours in the day. Let me ask you, Mark. Nevin Adams, all this researching, all this writing of 401k articles. Does he have a life or a [8:38] Chad: more pathetic 401k nerd existence? [8:41] Mark: No, I think he's got a great life. I think he has people doing it for him. [8:45] Justin: Yeah, he's got people. [8:46] JD: He's got. [8:47] Mark: He's got to the level of, oh, he's here. He's fucking here. [8:51] Speaker E: You know what? [8:51] Chad: Maybe we can ask him. [8:54] Mark: Maybe that's why he's on the buttons. I knew something was up when I saw that. [8:59] Chad: Where is he? Turn on your camera for me, Nevin, everyone. [9:03] JD: That's my special surprise. You lucky son of a. We've got Nevin Adams here today. [9:10] Justin: Hey, guys. [9:11] JD: Hey. I was trying to. [9:14] Mark: I was trying to be good, buddy. [9:17] JD: I was trying to bait robe guy into saying something negative about you, but he wouldn't. He took. Took the high road. [9:24] Justin: He's plagiarizing his content, saying it's all from him, even though somebody else is clearly doing all the work. [9:29] JD: Let's, let's. [9:30] Mark: First off, I didn't say that. [9:32] Speaker E: You did. [9:32] Justin: Those were your words exactly. [9:34] Mark: Okay, sure. [9:34] JD: Let's answer that question. I honestly mean that, Nevin. I kind of put you in like the Michael Kitsis category of people. I don't understand how they get all this work done. All the research, all the writing, all the content that comes out, let alone your LinkedIn comments, which to me are many times well thought through and on point with the subject. And so is Mark, right? Are you getting help or are you doing this all on your own? [10:03] Justin: I got help. [10:04] Speaker E: We have staff. But the stuff that's got my name on it is me, and it's all me. And nobody would write that long on a story on the Internet except for me. I wouldn't let anybody who works for me write posts that long on the Internet for me. [10:21] JD: You know, speaking of which, Nevin, this article recently, Several days ago, August 26th, whatever participant data claims, dismiss an excessive fee suit. I read through this whole one, which is usually pretty difficult for me to do with your articles, but I went start to finish on this one. [10:40] Speaker E: Just go down to the bottom where it says what this means. [10:43] Chad: I do at the end. [10:44] JD: That is great that you do that for us surfers. [10:46] Chad: You put a nice summary at the end of every one of them. [10:48] Speaker E: I do make you go to the bottom of the screen because screen time counts in our met. [10:54] JD: No, I think this is a big deal and I've got a little bit of a. [10:57] Mark: We need to talk about that. I'm more interested in that tracking. Go on. [11:01] Chad: What? [11:02] JD: Okay, I think we got a little bit of a theme going on here, which is I, I feel like the tide is, is turning a little bit. And am I crazy to think that the courts are starting to rule in the favor of. Of plans and providers and not the plaintiff attorneys like the Schlichters and stuff? Am I reading too much into this or do you see some of that happening? [11:25] Speaker E: No, that's definitely happening. It's. It all sort of turned. I mean, I think a lot of people with the Northwestern case came out and, you know, the Schlichter guys got a victory of sorts. Not, not really completely, but, but sort of. I think a lot of people, the most optimistic people said, well, this probably won't change very much, but instead what's happened and it's all coming out of a case in the, in the 6th Circuit. Has to deal with a organization called Common Spirit. It's getting cited all the time now. And they basically said it's not going to be enough for you to just put up a list of plans that are same size and whatever fees numbers you're going to put out there, you're not going to be able to get away with that anymore. You're going to have to talk about the services that people get for those fees. And that's a whole new level of threshold. Now there was a case that I wrote up last night where they said you can do that with investment fees but not record keeping. Record keeping, share with the services you get for the fees. That that comparison matters. And, and the clear sense right now, at least in the circuits in the Midwest seems to be sort of raising that plausible standard. Now the 9th Circuit still going the other way out where you all are. So you need to need to work on them a little bit. [12:43] JD: But nah, yeah, let's. I want to go into a couple of those and I, I and I've got another interesting article around that that we can talk about. But let's talk about this one about the participant data first because I thought [12:55] Chad: this was really interesting. [12:56] JD: This is the Burkle Hammer Hammer versus adp. Ah, right. Case. [13:03] Speaker E: Well, I think that counts as their name. I know it stands for something else, but yeah. [13:08] Justin: Got a drink on it. [13:10] Chad: This is one I thought was really interesting because the, the judge, I'm trying to find her name here. [13:17] JD: Oh, Judge Esther Salas. [13:20] Chad: Let me read for you from your article, Nevin. [13:24] JD: Mostly for the people, by the way. [13:25] Speaker E: You won't find that in everybody else who writes this shit up. I put the quotes in so you can do just what you're getting ready. [13:30] JD: It's awesome. It's awesome. [13:32] Chad: Here's a little quote from her. That the fiduciary defendants breached their fiduciary duties by disclosing planned participant data to Voya. This is what the plaintiffs were hoping to prove. Which used through an acronym I'm not going to use but the Voya financial advisors the data to sell non plan [13:50] JD: retail and expensive investment products to the plan participants and that the defendant's transfer of planned participant data to Voya constituted a party and interest Transaction prohibited under 1106 A.1D. Now conflict of interest. [14:05] Chad: Judge Solis goes on to say that [14:07] JD: that the plaintiffs do not offer a single case supporting their fiduciary breach claim. Not a single case in court has been held. Releasing confidential information or allowing someone to [14:19] Chad: use confidential information constitutes a breach of duty under erisa, it goes on to [14:25] JD: say that if you're not sharing information. Yep, I'll drink for that. [14:29] Chad: If you're not sharing data with the record keeper Voia in this case, then [14:34] JD: you're probably doing a disservice to the participants in the plan themselves. I mean, this is a big win for companies out there that want to cross sell, and I know Mark loves this term, want to monetize the participant. And I know this is just one [14:50] Chad: judge, one case, one thing, but it does seem to point towards participant data is not a plan asset and people can start to sell this type of stuff. [15:02] Justin: You agree? [15:03] Speaker E: Well, well, well voiced. Yes, I think, I think if, actually, if you go back to before this when, when the Schlichter folks, which again, to their credit, they're always looking for new angles when they sort of introduced this concept, I have yet to find a credible ERISA attorney who would, who would line up with the idea that participant data. [15:27] Chad: I'll drink for you, Nevin. [15:28] Speaker E: Thank. Well, it doesn't matter. They would say that participant data is, is in fact a plan asset. So there's that. I think some of the controversy gets around with people who are using participant data not to service the plan, not to help the participant, let's say financial wellness, which arguably, I mean, you've got to have that data or you can't do that. I think the controversy ends up being when you're using it to pitch something else. But still, if you're going to try to get over that threshold, you've got to get to the idea of whether plan assets are in fact or participated as a plan asset. And that now you can get a judge who doesn't know a darn thing about ERISA to come out and think that makes sense. But oh man, I'm out of practice. [16:17] JD: Yeah. But I think this is really interesting because I, we've talked about this before, but Schlichter does not like that concept. He does not think that you should be using their information to sell them even other financial services products. You know, he does not like that. And I always said, I think that's, that's a bummer for the future of our industry because I think the 2.0 version of a 401k or the future version of a 401k would be one in that, like there's wellness solutions, there's financial planning solutions solutions and those are all coming from that participant data. And we need to build products and solutions around that so we can be better at what we do. And so we don't need Schlichter someone telling us that we can't do that. It was your, your boy Brian Graff who, Chad and I were there listening. I get all four of us were there listening to Brian, I believe in, in, in Washington several years ago and he was saying the 401k of the future might be free because of this participant data. And I think those are all interesting things. [17:18] Chad: So anyways, I'm just happy to see that. It seems like the courts understand that, [17:24] JD: might continue to understand that. [17:26] Justin: Yes, Chad, I don't, I honestly don't know the answer to this. So I'm asking, does best interest extend beyond the relationship with 401k and rollovers? If you have an advisor who is the Advisor on the 401k and they are trying to go in through the protection participant data and sell some completely unrelated product, do they still have an obligation to determine that the product they're selling is in the best interest of that participant? [17:53] JD: A non financial product, call it a [17:55] Justin: non financial product, call it insurance, call it a, some sort of. [18:02] Chad: Well, I want to sell them like landscaping services or something. [18:05] Justin: No, something financially related. Tupperware. Tupperware, yeah. Candles. Candles and makeup. Mary Kay. But no, I'm saying any other line of service that they're working through, Life insurance, annuities, college. [18:19] Mark: Try to make your questions more pointed and accurate before you ask them because I don't know what we're talking about anymore. [18:25] Justin: Mark's looking for opportunity to talk. [18:27] Mark: Get it? [18:28] Justin: Mark? [18:28] JD: I think they currently have that ability to do that, Chad. That's what we're talking about. You mentioned the rollovers. Nevin's buddy Fred Reese there talks about the rollovers a lot. And they can still do rollovers. They just have to make sure that it's a proper, prudent decision for that participant. Right? Nevin? [18:47] Speaker E: Yeah, it's, you know, it's all tied in with the, with the retirement assets and the retirement plan and their role as a fiduciary with regard to that. Now, if you want to go sell them lawn services. No, that, that fiduciary relationship doesn't extend to lawn services. [19:00] Justin: No, but the topics that we're all mentioning are not necessarily retirement topics. If you're talking annuity, perhaps like life insurance or whatever. [19:07] Speaker E: Life insurance, I don't think, I don't think life insurance would get you there. I think, I think it needs to be tied into your relationship as a fiduciary with regards to the retirement plans. [19:15] Justin: See, so my Fear, then to. Some of JD's comments are if we do monetize the participant and we leverage this data in a way that is not in their best interest, then we shouldn't be using the damn data. If we have some obligation to do a little bit of research before selling a product that is, in this case, life insurance, then I'm okay with monetizing the participant. I'm okay with leveraging this data. But we got to go beyond just trying to throw product at people. [19:43] JD: Everyone always talks about the evil salesperson and the throwing of product, and I know that that can exist, but I think, Chad, we're going to get to a world where even if the participant data is not a plan asset, maybe it's still the responsibility. Hang on. Of the plan sponsor, of the fiduciaries to kind of guard those relationships and oversee them and make sure that whatever vendors they're using, they understand what products they're trying to sell to their participants, and they kind of govern that in some fashion as the employer. Why can't we just live in that utopia? That'll work just fine. Nevin, you're shaking your head. [20:25] Speaker E: No, we're. I mean, I'm shaking my. I mean, on the one hand, I agree with you. I'm shaking my head because we're all giving up all kinds of data to people all the frigging time. And the fact that you may click on some sort of a privacy statement or something doesn't mean we're actually thinking about it. That's why you get all the tracking things that go from one site to another and that kind of thing. I don't think there's any controversy with regard to using participant data for their benefit within the plans tied in with financial wellness and all that. So I said earlier, I think when you get outside of that mix, then, you know, I don't. I don't think that's an ERISA claim. Sorry, I said it again. I know, but now I'm at least knowing when I do it. But, but that doesn't mean that there might not be at some point somebody pressing the issue that says, you know, you shouldn't, you shouldn't be using that without some sort of awareness or compensation or something like that. But that falls outside the Employee Retirement Income security Act of 1974. Nice. That's different. [21:23] JD: Let's shift. [21:24] Chad: Let's shift away from participant data and [21:26] JD: back to these, These courtroom, these lawsuits. [21:30] Chad: There was one that you wrote about [21:32] JD: oshkosh, which I didn't even realize oshkosh was still a thing, but people are buying oshkosh these days. [21:40] Chad: They got a billion dollar plan, so they must be kids have outgrown them. [21:46] JD: So this isn't an appeal. Right. This one got kind of shut down. And then the plaintiff is coming back again. And I think when I read through this, it sounded to me like the plaintiff was feeling like maybe the Northwestern University case might have helped their position a little bit. [22:03] Chad: And the judge didn't feel the same way, like that had nothing to do with what they were talking about. Can you enlighten us a little bit more? Do you remember this one? [22:11] Speaker E: Oh, yeah, no, it's recent. Well, okay, again, it's the 7th Circuit. That's the Midwest. That's like, you know, Chicago, Michigan, like that. And the 7th Circuit has long been very friendly to fiduciaries anyway, so just kind of tuck that away. But yes, so, so here's a plaintiff's attorney who says, hey, the supreme court rejected the 7th Circuit opinion. That's the Northwestern case that was 7th Circuit and basically kicked it back for these guys they used. These are the guys who said, as long as you got some good funds on the menu, that's enough. Which was kind of a stupid thing anyway, but was good enough to win. So he said, sure, that kicked it back. So he obviously didn't actually read the opinion and pay any attention. He just said, well, they didn't like the Seven Circuits decision and an excessive fee case. So I'm going to go back and basically tweak my arguments and bring in references to the Northwestern case in an attempt to bootstrap my loss into a win based on that. And to your point exactly right. The judge looked at it, basically said, yeah, you know, the Northwestern case is back for reconsideration. Yes, it's here. It's in motion now, in fact. [23:19] Chad: But this has got nothing to do with. [23:20] Speaker E: It has nothing to do with any of the stuff we brought up. In fact, you kind of read into it a sense that they were a little annoyed at the fact that they were trying to do that. [23:27] JD: Right? [23:29] Speaker E: So, yeah, it was again, one of those. It also was one of those cases that even though the Common Spirit case, and I just commend you all, go to napanet.org and look up common Spirit, it's all one word. And, and find that case because it is being cited all over the place. [23:45] Chad: It's the national association of Plan Advisors when you're on this show. [23:48] JD: Nevin. [23:50] Speaker E: Napanet.org oh God. [23:52] Chad: Doing it again. [23:54] Speaker E: It's a website, it's not an accuracy. [23:57] Chad: Don't tell us how the rules work here. Don't tell us how the rules work here. So again, here we go. Another kind of slant towards the defense of the, the, the plant sponsor and their vendors. I never really knew this name or [24:13] JD: I never paid attention to it, but Euclid Fiduciary, Nevin, you know who they are? Yeah, yeah. I am going to recommend everyone out there that if you're dumb like me and you didn't know these people, check them out. Euclid Fiduciary and there's a blog that they're writing called the, the FID Guru [24:35] Chad: Blog and there's an article on there [24:38] JD: right now that's talking about here, here's the title. This. Remember we got the 1.5 million against the boogeyman and that was kind of an interesting that the judge called him reckless, slapped this sanction against him for 1.5 million. We talked about this last week. This article at the FID Guru blog goes deeper about how we should be maybe putting more sanctions on some of these other cases. They talk about the BlackRock cases and let me read for you what they say about the BlackRock. They go, these BlackRock funds, these cases is a prime example of an objectively unreasonable set of lawsuits is the coordinated ambush of 10 high quality plans for [25:27] Chad: alleged underperformance of get this, Morningstar's number one rated BlackRock target date funds. It is objectively unreasonable to claim fiduciary [25:39] JD: malpractice for choosing Morningstar's highest rated target [25:42] Chad: date funds as recent as March 14, 2022. [25:45] JD: Morningstar reviewed the BlackRock Life Path Index target date series and concluded that it remains a first class target date series. [25:54] Chad: If you read the rest of this [25:55] JD: article, which is lengthy, this, these people are pissed, man. They're saying these lawsuits need to stop. Go ahead Nevin. [26:04] Speaker E: Well, you know what they do for a living? [26:06] Chad: Insurance, right, Fiduciary insurance. [26:08] Speaker E: Okay so yes, so they have, they have skin in the game so to speak. Now I'll tell you, I, I met virtually Daniel like a week ago and he's going to come be a part. We've actually got and I've got to say this guys, it's the name even though it's an Acrosant. The ERISA 403B advisor conference in Washington in a month. Daniel's going to be a part of the panel that I'm going to be on. We're going to be talking about this kind of good stuff. So there. There's a shameless plug. But. But it's. It's interesting. And he does. He goes into the details. He's got other posts out there, goes deep where he points out, you know, that the kind of thing that I had the time to do, which is he's going out and looking at how these plans are actually invested. And you've got plaintiffs attorneys who are out there claiming that certain share classes are invested in. And they're not. [26:55] JD: And they're not. [26:56] Speaker E: They're not. Now, you can get this information from these fiduciary defendants, or you could, if their counsel wasn't telling them not to talk to anybody. Okay, so this is why in my post about litigation, when it's filed, is to remind people that you only got one side of the story here. There's another side. And unfortunately, we can't. We can't usually share it with people until it actually comes to court and we get it out. But Daniel and his firm, they are in a unique position not only to see this stuff, but to be aware of what's going on. So I. I will double down on your recommendation. [27:30] Chad: Jd. [27:31] Justin: It's. [27:31] Speaker E: It's great fodder, really. [27:32] Chad: Yep. He hit my radar. I dug deep into it, and I [27:35] JD: was like, who is this guy? Like, this is good stuff, man. And so really smart, really detailed. You know, it's a long read, everyone. [27:43] Chad: But it's worth it. It's worth it to get through it all. [27:46] Speaker E: That's why he and I get along. [27:47] JD: Yeah, sure. [27:49] Speaker E: And he apparently likes my writing, so there's that. [27:52] Chad: Hey, that does not shock me. But when I read. When I print and read your pieces, it reminds me of when I was in high school and reading a textbook. I have to go back over it three or four times to understand what was actually. Actually said. But I get through it eventually. [28:08] JD: I get through it eventually. [28:10] Chad: No, I. I highly recommend that [28:13] Speaker E: you're not reading the whole thing. You should have to read the cases that I do our best at later. [28:20] Justin: I can only imagine. [28:21] JD: He also made mention this Euclid blog that I liked is. We've been saying it on this show, and some people have been telling me that it's not true, but it is true. A lot of these lawsuits have been bringing performance. Performance into the narrative. And he said a really smart thing. He said, you cannot sue based on less investment gain. Meaning, like you, we. [28:44] Chad: We do not live in the right world. [28:46] JD: Like, we would be upside down if you're suing plan sponsors and their vendors [28:52] Chad: because they could have been in that fund and it would have done better [28:55] JD: in a, in a five year return share class aside. Put share class aside, I get that. But we cannot live in a world [29:03] Chad: where we're suing because, well, you should [29:05] JD: have been in that fund. You would have performed better. Like that's crazy talk. And they're doing it. [29:10] Speaker E: They're suing. They're not going to win. They're not going to win. I'm not, I'm not aware of any situation out there where any court in the land has ever basically applied a 2020 hindsight kind of thing. As long as you got that prudent process in place, it's documented all this kind of stuff, you'll be bulletproof against that kind of crap. That's why, that's why these, these suits, they're clearly, they're just throwing it up and seeing if they, if they get one settlement out of this group of 11 suits, you know, maybe that'll, that'll be a nice payday for them. But it's, but tell me silly. [29:41] JD: Well, as we move on here now from these lawsuit stuff, but I mean tell me that, that Schlichter sanction, say that 10 times fast. Tell me that that isn't a deterrent to some of these copy and paste. [29:55] Chad: You don't think they're, they're worried that [29:57] JD: they might get slapped or something. [29:58] Speaker E: I got, I got asked that question by, by one of my friends like the day we wrote up the fact that the one and a half million had been, had come out. But as I pointed out to them and I posted this on Tony's Schlichters [30:11] Chad: made like half a billion dollars or something. [30:13] Speaker E: Yeah, I mean you know there was, this wasn't new. This actually this judge decided applied this sanction to the Schlichter law firm in September of 2020. Okay. What took this long to come around to be recently decided was there was some dissension with the, and I forget their name, the co counsel with Schlichter wanted Schlichter to have to pay the whole thing as opposed to them being stuck with it. So there was a battle over, you know, no honor among thieves or whatever. There was a battle between the things and that was the kind of thing that the judge was citing. So In September of 2020 there had already been this pushback, this one point but by the way was limited by the judge there. This doesn't begin to recover the cost that the folks at Great west and empowered dealt with. The judge put a cap on his 1.5 million. And that was in September 2020. And I don't know about you all, but I haven't really seen things slowing down. [31:09] JD: So, yeah, he didn't take his foot off the pedal. So him or anybody else, to John Sullivan's point in the chat bar, he said, you know, 1.5 is minuscule compared to what he's made. I can't remember what Schlichter's brought in and in fees, but I want to say it's north of 500 million. [31:24] Chad: I. [31:24] JD: Someone fact checked me on that. But. [31:27] Chad: But Sullivan, it was last week or the week before I did I put your article on here where I thought you had called Schlichter reckless. I was like, I was so proud of you, Sullivan. I'm like, wow, that's bold. [31:40] JD: He just called Schlichter reckless. And then I realized, no, that was the judge that did that. And you had little quotes around it. Again, another dumb surfer move on my. My half left. Let's feed. [31:51] Speaker E: Got you to look. Got you to click. [31:53] Chad: Let's. [31:54] JD: Let's potentially feed my surfer brain. [31:59] Chad: Let's. Let's spin the wheel of ice. [32:01] JD: Let's spin the wheel. [32:05] Justin: Devin's gonna have to turn his head [32:07] Speaker E: a little bit for us. [32:11] Justin: Oh, there we go. [32:11] Chad: Nice. Nice. [32:15] Justin: Oh, I pulled a JD Forgot that I didn't have anymore. [32:19] Speaker F: So I can either take. [32:21] Justin: Oh, [32:24] Mark: yeah, two shots. [32:25] Chad: You're gonna have, I would say two, three. Two. [32:28] Speaker F: Damn. [32:29] Chad: Two and a half shots. You can. [32:31] Justin: You can pass it, Justin. You can pass it. And then you gotta take like two of them next week. [32:35] JD: I'm not. [32:37] Chad: I'm gonna put you on the spot. [32:38] JD: The concept here, everybody, was for Nevin and just pop in and go over some of his headlines for us. [32:45] Mark: I was actually gonna ask that, like, what is. What's the game? Because he's not even. He's not even in here. [32:50] Chad: He's upset for a little bit and then kind of let him move along. And it's not. [32:55] Speaker E: I'm not worthy. Not worthy, but let's be honest. [33:00] Chad: But I'm claiming. [33:01] JD: If. I'm claiming. [33:02] Chad: If we pulled the audience right now, they would love to have you stick around. I don't know what I was thinking. Why would I have someone with your brain power and then kick you off the show midway through? Can you stay with us, Mr. Mr. Adams? [33:14] Speaker E: Sure. I'll write up the next later. [33:18] Justin: Make him work until 2 in the morning. Now, J.D. [33:21] Mark: i like it. I like it. [33:22] Chad: See, keep Nevin. Everyone says J.D. [33:26] Mark: great surprise. [33:27] Chad: Oh, there we Go. [33:28] Mark: Be much better to have him in the show. But you know, our audience right now at what, 12000 people would have been like 30, 000 if you just had them like if you would announce it. [33:38] JD: Yeah, well, you know, you gotta try different things, Mark. You gotta try different things. [33:44] Chad: Guess what, Nevin, for you. [33:45] Speaker E: Yes, ma'. [33:46] JD: Am. Yes, our governor in California. You're probably aware of this. [33:51] Chad: Gavin Newsom on Friday, last Friday, August 26th, I believe it was signed into like an amendment. [34:01] JD: Find your notes, J.D. but anyways, I'll just go right to [34:04] Chad: Cal Savers, our state run plan. Is that an acronym? [34:07] JD: No, we've discovered that's not right. Is now lowering the mandate requirement from the original low mark of 5 to 1 employee. Okay, what was your first thought when you saw that? Like, [34:25] Speaker E: well clearly we're not worried about burdens on little businesses anymore. [34:29] JD: Right. [34:30] Chad: So that's a negative. That's where you're going to get. [34:34] Speaker E: Well, look, there's, there's no magic to, to, you know, if you work for a company, there's only five of you there. You, your need for retirement is no less than if you work for somebody who has 10 employees. And I think the, the sense is if it was working, you know, let's take it down. Let's not. If somebody's truly like just you know, completely self employed and all that, we'll not put that burden on them. But everybody else should have the opportunity [34:59] Mark: do that from the start. [35:00] Chad: That's my question. [35:03] Speaker E: They don't there because if they had done that from the start, pushback would have all been about the crippling burden that you're putting on small businesses and that. Trust me, that's still out there. That's still out there. [35:17] JD: That's still the debate. Now that's a great question though, Marcus. Like they determined five at one point. There must have been a reason for that. I think we just hit the nail [35:26] Chad: on the head of what that reason was. We felt like companies that had less than five employees, employees, this would be a nuisance for them. [35:33] JD: This. They got bigger fish to fry. They're trying to make their business be successful. They run a flower shop or you know, some newsstand on the corner or something and they don't want to be hit with these mandates. [35:43] Chad: Chad, I know you're a believer in that. You don't think a four person friend should be happy. Oh, you know, I know we should. We should, Nevin. But my greed, my, my greed cannot influence my thoughts about something. I just. Because we're going to do a lot of business doesn't mean I think it's right. [36:01] Speaker E: I thought you were going to say even your greed had limits. But okay. [36:06] Chad: I mean, Chad, you don't think a [36:08] JD: four person flower shop should be forced to have a retirement plan, do you? [36:13] Justin: I don't, I don't think a five person group or ten person group should be forced. But I do like, I do like the outcome for the individual. I don't like the outcome for the business. I like people having stronger, easier access to save through payroll deduction. I don't like what it's doing to the business owner that's wearing five hats, barely making enough money to keep the doors open and now they're being forced to spend time and effort on something like this. [36:40] Speaker E: No, they don't have to spend any time. It's just a payroll, it's just a flip on the switch. They don't. Let me, let me work. [36:47] Chad: Let me give you a match. Let me give you a real life [36:50] JD: example of how some employers feel about this. And let me clarify for everyone listening in this one person role does not include sole props and it does not [37:00] Chad: include like owner, you know, husband, wife, whatever types of companies. [37:05] JD: You have to have an actual employee. But with that said, let me acknowledge [37:10] Justin: though that, that the way they're tracking that JD is what is reported on the DE9 for, to the state for taxes. Mark, I don't think that's an acrostone. So it's going to be someone who's W2. It's going to be reported on there. [37:25] Mark: We're just going to make that one too. [37:27] Justin: And so, and so they're gonna be reaching out, wondering why you are not complying. Even if, even if you're filing as an S corp and you have one [37:35] Chad: person, well, you'll be able to hit back and say, look, I don't have any employees. I don't, I wouldn't worry about that. [37:41] Justin: I get it. You can hit back. Mark. I'm, I'm not, I'm drinking for all of those. Even though. [37:47] Chad: Let me. [37:47] JD: Now guys, I think this is really interesting. [37:49] Chad: So my daughter works for or doesn't anymore, but she worked for a pizza [37:55] JD: place and this pizza place on a little corner store here in San Diego has probably, you know, 10 employees. [38:03] Chad: You know, and I remember talking to the manager there as I was having a beer at the bar, like what are you going to do about this Cal Savers thing? You know, you're going to, you should talk to your owner about maybe putting in a 401k plan. And I never followed up, never came to fruition. And then I find out that I asked my daughter, did you guys put [38:24] JD: Cal Savers in place? And she goes, I don't know. That's weird. I have to. My daughter's smart chick. I have to think about that. Like, I don't remember anything coming up. Then she came to me later, and she showed me a text message from [38:38] Chad: her manager, and it said, hey, we had to put this state plan thing in place. [38:45] JD: And this is a group text to all the employees that work this little pizza joint. But he said, but. [38:51] Chad: But don't worry about it. You guys don't want to do that. So you can just. I'm just gonna assume that you're opting out of it, that you don't want to do it. That was the thing. And so my point to you is, do you think that's an isolated situation? I bet you that's happening all over the place, you know? [39:07] JD: You know what else I think would be fun? I don't have the time for it, but if I could just start walking into, like, small businesses with 10 employees, 7 employees, 12 employees, and ask them, like, how CalSavers is going? Like, how's it working? I think you get a far different message than you get from the. The tokens at CalSaver saying that everything's going so great. [39:29] Chad: I think you're gonna find a lot of deceit. I think you're gonna find a lot of not rule falling. And I think. I think you're also going to find a lot, to Chad's point, a lot of businesses that are like, I don't [39:37] JD: want to do this. This is a pain in my ass. [39:39] Justin: I tell you, JD Confidently, of all the groups that we've been bringing on, where we're having the conversation that have already adopted Cal Savers are very clear, saying, it is so difficult, really, we don't. We don't even want to put up with it anymore. [39:54] Speaker F: We've had a few. Yeah, never mind. [39:56] Justin: And they're moving. [39:57] Mark: I've also had the flip side, though, because I don't want to be super negative on that. I've had the flip side where. Same kind of deal. They're flipping to a 401k next year. But they're like, yeah, we did Cal Savers for the last eight months. Like, it's been going fine. It's fine. But we're just seeing an issue with, like, trying to hire people. Like, they're like, I have a. Like, 401k is coming up for people they're hiring that they're like, I guess we're going to change because we want to make sure people have the benefits they expect. But that they thought of that. The, the human resources person's like, it's going fine. [40:27] Chad: Well, there we go to Nevin's positive [40:29] JD: point where he's saying jd, why are you so negative? And I will, we'll end this. This is. It is right that. Thank you CalSavers for even if you're frustrating some of these small employers, at least you're getting them in that headspace of realizing that maybe they have to be responsible for something like this. You're getting participants in kind of the investing headspace as well as like getting used to investing for the first time. [40:53] Chad: And it's only going to do good things for our industry. So to Nevin's original point, I should be a fan of it. I should be a total fan of it. It's going to buy me another Lambo or two. So like I should be all for it. [41:04] JD: But I just think there's some flaws to it. That's all there is. [41:07] Speaker E: Well, that's why the opt out rates are ginormous and they really are. I, I'm not familiar. I haven't. In fact I'm planning this weekend to spend a little time with Cal Savers data and see. But, but Oregon Saves, which I have spent some time with, has like 40% opt out rates, huge opt out rates, 40% and the number of participants they count, the number of people and if you ever did the math on the assets divided by the number of people. [41:33] Chad: Yeah. [41:34] Speaker E: That number looks a little so low. Well and worse than that because the people on their roster who actually have a balance is like, like 30%. So there are a lot of people who are on the books who haven't yet start contributing that kind of stuff and the fees are, you know, it's going to turn some of these people negative when they quit. There are definitely some issues here Nev. [41:59] JD: That doesn't that not add up? Like it seems shocking to me. Pre state run plan auto enrollment for us as an industry was like look, you put auto enrollment in place and you go north of 90% like every time. Like we, we knew this, we saw the studies, we've seen the numbers, we understand why. So this doesn't add up to me [42:22] Speaker E: like, well to your point, I think [42:26] Speaker F: it was Gabby at the pizza shop. How many employers do you think. And I know I've had some myself be like, hey, we're going to tell the employees that we had to enroll in Cal Savers because we missed a deadline. But we're putting. [42:37] Chad: You think some of that opt out. You think some of that opt out percentage? [42:40] Speaker F: Like nope, nope, they're not participating. [42:42] Mark: Just done. [42:43] Speaker F: Done. I know, I know. Seven has to reach out to the employee, but still. [42:47] Speaker E: No, no, no, you're, you're right. And I'm sure there's all these dynamics going on, but let's. Okay, I can jump on either side of this argument because I'm not a big fan of mandating anything. Okay. On the other hand, I've got no rigged desire to pick up the tab on the retirement for all these people who work for small employers and didn't do it. [43:04] Chad: Okay, so you already, you already have to pay for people's college loans, but continue on. [43:09] Speaker E: Sorry, Ted, don't even get me started on that one. So, you know, so you, you've got this, this kind of issue going on. But the people who wanted to put these programs in place, they were bounded in a little bit. So for instance, they all had to be Roth. Why? Because if it was not Roth and it was a taxpayer burden on people, so boom. So it's, it's all got to be Roth. So there's no tax pre tax advantage to sell to these people. There's no employer match. Again, if they had required an employer match, they'd have gotten pushed back for the burden they put on. [43:38] Chad: You are, you're trying to show me [43:40] JD: why the opt out's higher. Because it's different. Okay, good. I like that. That's logical. I get. [43:46] Speaker E: Because these program, they are, they are clearly suboptimal. [43:50] JD: They're less than they are, they are [43:52] Speaker E: better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, but they are suboptimal. So when I talk to people about, I'm like, you want to be able to get people to get a real plan and not just the, the employees, but the, the owners of these businesses right now. I mean, what kind of. I mean most of them run around thinking their retirement plan is their business. Well, yeah, you know, you can do better than that. Particularly if you, you hook up with, [44:16] JD: you're taking a chapter that's a chapter out of these guys books right here that are sitting on both sides of us. Nevin is, that's what they've been doing for the last two years here in California. So you're totally right with that. [44:27] Chad: But thank you. [44:28] JD: You made me see the light on why the opt out is higher just because it's a less than solution. So fair enough. [44:34] Justin: It's not built to have the proper guidance, the education, the advocacy of an advisor or the, the, you know, the product that sees value in getting assets in the plan. So I think all of those are misses. Now the objective was admirable and I think where we are failing, call it Oregon says. I think where we have failed thus far is that we need as a community, I feel like we need to know who is in these state run mandated plans and do a better job marketing toward them. Like is it accomplishing anything for you? Because if you're running it and you have a 40% opt out rate and it's creating a headache for your human resources and your, your accounts payable or struggling to monitor every like, then you shouldn't be doing it. So go ahead and set up a qualified plan that we know automatic enrollment will have a true impact. Get an advocate and as an advisor in there and let that advisor charge for the work they're doing and make something successful. [45:32] Chad: We'll move on. [45:33] JD: But it's also hard when your version of a, of a summary plan description or letting your participants know that they have this option is a group text [45:42] Chad: from your manager saying you probably should just opt out. That's not gonna work real well. [45:48] Speaker F: Real quick, I want to ask this question. Nevin, when this first came out, I think you said there was like a 33% take rate. Have you looked at that data since? We've gone down to five employees or more and seen if there's an uptick in that? [46:01] Speaker E: No, my, my look, really, I spent most of my time with Oregon safe. I really, I'm just in my weekend plan. Thank you. Labor Day is to look at the Cal Savers. So maybe I can come back later and tell y' all some that I find I haven't had a chance to do that. I don't even know at this point. Oregon Saves has been very good about making. They've been very transparent about what's going on there and I very much appreciate it. Even though as I said, the stories weren't always great. But, but Cal Savers, I don't know if they're, if they're that transparent. I hope they are, but I just haven't had a chance to get to it. [46:31] Chad: The senso brings up an interesting point [46:33] JD: too in the chat bar about how, you know, Nevin, you had alluded to the fee structures and some of these things and they vary from state to state, but they're not Free. And you know, it'll be more and more interesting to see like whether they have prudent fee structures as the assets grow because it's, it's weird. [46:51] Chad: And then we got our buddy over at Vestwell who's running around setting up, you know, to be the record keeper [46:57] JD: for these state run plans. And I'm thinking like, why are you so excited about this? Like, are you making any money on this? I think you'd be losing your shirt on it. But. But there is the whole fee structure part of it that will be interesting to watch it evolve because the way it's set up now, those fees can't stay in place as those assets start to grow bigger. The, the fees are, to me, wouldn't be prudent as they reach some type of scale. But we'll see. Everyone's always cash in on this kind of stuff and that includes state run plans too. Trying to make some money off of it. [47:29] Chad: Let's play a game. [47:32] JD: The incredibly original and always fun Noer Dope game. Noer Dope game. [47:41] Justin: Oh, no. Audio B. [47:54] Chad: Chad. Chad called me the other day, I think it was yesterday. And I didn't pick up. Mark. I saw it was Chad. It was ringing. I'm like, I'm not picking this up. [48:06] JD: The reason why I didn't pick up was because I felt awkward answering the call because I was sitting on the toilet doing a number two. [48:16] Chad: So Nevin. Nope. Or dope. Do you, do you answer someone's call [48:23] JD: when you're on the toilet? [48:26] Speaker E: Only one person. Maybe two. [48:31] Justin: Brian and who else? [48:35] Chad: Oh, wow. I just got an image in my head there. I didn't want to. I didn't want to have. [48:41] Speaker E: But please don't tell him, folks. [48:42] Chad: Oh, he's gonna find out that one. [48:46] Speaker E: No. [48:46] Chad: Well, that, that'd be the next follow up here. [48:48] JD: Yummy. [48:50] Chad: The next follow up question I would ask you is do you inform such person that you are sitting with your shorts around your ankles on the toilet? Chad, do you answer phones? [49:00] Speaker E: I always mute before I flush. [49:02] Justin: My answer to JD when we had this conversation was it depends on who's calling. If Justin or Mark are calling, then I'm answering. But there's been a few times where I just like, I throw the door open so you don't hear the echo and then you answer it. [49:15] Chad: So you do it. Justin, have you been. [49:19] Speaker E: All right, there's a follow up question here. Do you sanitize your phone afterwards? [49:24] Justin: I'm not touching my poop. I don't know what you guys think you do when you're on the. [49:28] JD: Oh, it. Like it floats around in there. It floats around there. [49:32] Chad: Justin, have you ever answered a phone call while sitting on the toilet? [49:36] Justin: Absolutely. [49:37] Speaker F: I've even dialed while I was on the toilet. [49:39] Chad: Made an outbound. You made an outbound call to Chad's point. [49:43] Speaker F: It's typically with someone who's closer. For sure. [49:47] Speaker E: Very close. [49:48] Chad: I'm not gonna ask you, Mark. I don't want to know. [49:50] JD: You are a rude, terrible person. [49:54] Chad: I don't want to know. Mark. I don't want to know. [49:57] Mark: My answer is vastly different than everybody else. [49:59] Chad: Okay, I want to hear it. [50:01] Mark: Oh, no, I don't. I don't at all. No, no. [50:04] Justin: You take your phone in there. Mark. [50:06] Speaker F: Mark, you're so full of. Pun intended. [50:08] Mark: Pun intended. [50:09] Chad: Yeah. [50:09] Mark: No, Justin, there's maybe one time that I did with you 110 minutes talking [50:14] Speaker F: to me while you're taking a. [50:16] Mark: No, I have never talked you while I've been like, I'm about to be done. Just give me a second and no. Chad. Yeah. Do I take my photo? Of course. I like any other person. I look at stuff. [50:29] Justin: Why are you all weird? Why is everybody weird? [50:33] Mark: Decline, decline. [50:35] Chad: Okay, all right, let's. Let's move on. Let's pivot. You know, do you know that what's weird, though, is, remember when we were younger retireholics, we used to talk about going potty all the time on the show. And I even think when we had Nevin on in Washington, we talked about bathroom toilet paper or something like that. Okay. I showed up to the office today here, and I opened the freezer, and there was this beautiful row of that Brandon had put there. I didn't know. Brandon. Thank you very much for doing this. Microwave burritos just lined up at the office. Nevin, I'm thinking going down to a [51:16] JD: nice restaurant, getting a burrito is the way to go. But how do you feel about the plastic wrapped, microwaved burritos in your life? [51:22] Chad: Are you. Are you? No. Per dopanos. [51:27] Speaker E: Depends on how hungry I am. [51:29] Chad: Good answer, Mark. Nope. Or dope on microwave burritos. [51:38] JD: No, no, no, they're not good. [51:41] Chad: Usually when you do them. You ever do one and you didn't quite get to the center of it? Like, the outside was hot, and then you bite in the center. Still icy cold. That's not a good look. [51:52] Justin: Let me. Let me help each of you here. You get a paper towel, you get it wet, you wring it out, you wrap the burrito in it, and now the tortilla stays nice and soft and everything cooks thoroughly. It's all right. [52:06] Chad: You're learning some. [52:07] JD: You're learning some things out there in Missouri. [52:09] Justin: This was a college trip, Jimmy Changas. [52:12] Chad: All right, here's a serious one. [52:14] Speaker F: I'm dope. I'm going to answer. Hold on. I'm popping it in the mic was [52:18] Mark: for right now, not my historical life when I was a child. [52:24] Justin: Jd. [52:24] Speaker F: I'm popping one in the mic and gonna eat it and go take a. And talk to you. [52:29] Chad: Well, you're definitely gonna take a shit [52:30] JD: quickly after a microwave burrito. [52:32] Chad: Okay, this next one's serious. I really need some guidance. [52:36] JD: And Nevin, you seem like a. Like a prudent, responsible person. [52:41] Chad: Someone. [52:42] JD: I can use some guidance on this. [52:44] Chad: You know, before I was an empty [52:46] JD: nester, I had a lot of kids at my house and would. It would create a lot of trash. A lot of trash. [52:53] Chad: And our trash cans come on Friday morning, by the way. So I'm usually drunk. Yeah, I'm usually drunk after retireholics trying to haul them out to the curb. But sometimes I run out of room. I don't have enough room in my [53:10] JD: trash cans for all of my trash. But I've eyeballed some of my neighbors and they seem to have some empty [53:19] Chad: space in their garbage cans. [53:21] JD: Now it's nighttime. [53:23] Chad: The trucks are coming in the morning. I don't think they're gonna be running out at 2am with an extra bag to add to the mess. So. Nope. [53:31] JD: Or dope. I just want to get in there [53:34] Chad: and get my trash in my neighbor's trash can. [53:36] JD: Is that okay or not? [53:38] Speaker E: Yeah, man. Dope. Gotta do it. [53:40] Chad: Gotta do it. Dope. [53:41] Speaker E: What are you gonna do? Take it back inside. [53:42] Chad: I know. And for next week, you know, put [53:45] JD: it back in the morning after the trucks come over. [53:48] Speaker E: Have you had chicken in your garbage for a week? I'm sorry. [53:51] Justin: There's never enough room next week either, in that case. [53:55] Chad: Chad, have you ever done this? [53:57] Justin: I have. I felt awkward. So no. But what I have done is gone over to the school and thrown it in the dumpster. [54:06] Chad: That's a whole nother one. [54:07] Speaker E: How is that different? [54:09] JD: That's worse. [54:10] Justin: It's not. It's not different. But I don't have garbage in your car. [54:16] Mark: You're disgusting. [54:18] Justin: I just walked across the street with it. [54:21] Chad: He loves Cross street. The school. Mark. [54:23] Mark: Across the street from your school. [54:25] Speaker E: Mark. [54:25] JD: First quick question. First quick question. Have you ever done this, Mark? Yes or no? [54:33] Mark: No. [54:33] Chad: No. [54:33] Justin: I will never do that. [54:35] Chad: You've never done It. [54:35] Justin: I can't do it either. [54:36] Chad: Justin, have you ever done this? Yes or no? [54:39] Speaker F: I did it a few weeks back for my grandma. [54:41] JD: Okay. When you did it for Grams, I'm assuming you're gonna say dope like it's okay to do, but I want. I want an honest answer. [54:48] Chad: When you did it, did you do it stealth like, or were you trying [54:52] JD: not to get caught? [54:53] Speaker F: Dude, that comes with a $10,000 fine. [54:55] Justin: If you caught. [54:55] Speaker F: Of course I was trying to do it. [54:57] Mark: Still does it really? Mm. [54:59] Justin: Throw trash in your neighbor's trash can? [55:01] JD: It can't be. It can't be. [55:04] Speaker E: It's. [55:05] JD: Look it up. [55:05] Chad: Okay. All right, Nevin, we're gonna finish out this show with a little investment advice for you and everyone that has tuned. Tuned in. [55:12] JD: We call this part of the show Drunk stock tips. [55:30] Chad: Markets have been rough. People, like, turn on the news. It's been a volatile market out there. But you know what? One man stands above all others, and that is Robe Guy. He doesn't care if the markets are volatile because he's a motherfucking genius when it comes to investing. He told you to buy Apple when It was at 142. [55:52] JD: All of this hell of a up and down and crazy market and inflation and recession talk and everything. [55:59] Chad: Well, Apple's up. It's up to 157. So way to go, Mark. [56:03] JD: You steering the people right. Netflix, when Mark told you by Netflix, it was south of 200 at 199. It was a 226 today. I didn't check at the close, but 226 up again. Thank Robe Guy for the financial advice. He knows what he's doing. He told Chad that Laird Superfood was going to drop over a period of a month. He specifically said one month, one month later, that stock had dropped. [56:33] Chad: As soon as Mark. The month was over, it went up because Mark knew that he knew it was going to be down in a month and then it would go up. Now, Twitter, he got in a little bit of a debate with Mr. Aarons from Intellisense about Twitter. Mr. Aarons was saying, no. Mark was saying, bye. [56:52] JD: It's been a short time. [56:53] Chad: It's been a crazy market out there. [56:55] JD: Twitter's down a little bit. [56:57] Chad: But Mark, if I remember, you're kind [56:59] JD: of saying, no, no, no, this is long term. [57:01] Chad: I want to see this Elon thing play out. I want to see some of this stuff going out. So the jury's still out on that one, but you're crushing it. Rogue Guy, you're crushing it. It's a thing of magic that I am, that I'm watching. I'm baffled by your geniusness, if that's a word, Nevin. Today's stock is Peloton, the workout bike and treadmill. I don't know if you guys know this, but Peloton obviously went gangbusters in Covid. I bought the bike. I bought the tread. [57:36] Justin: Wait, did you buy the bike? [57:38] JD: Yeah, I bought the bike. [57:40] Mark: You have to buy the bike. [57:42] Speaker F: Jamie bought the bike before COVID Yeah, yeah. [57:46] Justin: Did the bike not come as a gift to you? [57:48] Chad: Well, first of all, if Santa brings [57:50] JD: it, I fucking paid for it. [57:52] Chad: Your kids aren't listening, are they? Yeah. So I bought both the bike and the tread. And I'm a fan. I like them. I think they're well done. But they. Anyways, they boomed in Covid, and to Nevin's point, they have fallen off a cliff. At one point, they dropped dramatically because, like, small animals were being killed by the treadmill. And they had to. They had to put out a disclaimer on the treadmill and redo it, and that kind of sent it down. And then they've just been missing their [58:22] JD: numbers recently, I think. I think what we've been seeing is. And I'm not trying to influence you, Rob Guy, and I know that that's not how this works for you. Yeah, you just pull it out of the air. But they're now down to, like, less people are buying the equipment and they're left with subscribers. Right. And maybe that money's not floating their boat. And so they've been missing numbers. [58:43] Chad: There's a lot of other people out there that are naysayers that are saying, look, Covid's over. People are going to go back to 24. What's it called? 24 Hour Fitness and Planet, Whatever the fuck it's called, and. And go do their workouts. [58:56] JD: They're not. [58:56] Chad: They're not going to be in their garage on the. The Treadmill. But Peloton's been beaten down, Mark. It's beaten down. [59:02] JD: I mean, maybe it's affordable at this point. Do I buy it and add it to my portfolio or do I not? [59:09] Mark: Well, a couple of things which are very interesting to me, which were the. Again, you mentioned some things about animals or babies dying or whatever you said. But, you know, baby animals, pet, whatever. Evan, I don't listen to him. Even that show, the Sex and the City reboot that had the guy on there who had a heart attack on a fake fucking show that Killed a guy. Pretend their, their stock price dipped the next day because you know again that stupid like that where I'm like they're taking, they're taking shots from everywhere. It doesn't even matter if it's real or not. But my general comment is this, it's a fad. Yeah, I bought one too. I see them now on like next door apps. People slanging them for a thousand bucks to get rid of them. [1:00:00] Speaker F: Right. [1:00:01] Mark: I mean I, I am so down on that. No, I'm don't. This, this is not a buy. Stay away from this because there will be another peloton. It will be called something else. It will be cooler, it will be better. I hear, I heard grumblings of Apple maybe purchasing peloton they could have reinvigorated them slightly to bring maybe a new user interface or some cool ideas or integration with different tech. I don't buy any of it because it's just, it's like any, I don't know what was that Suzanne Summers exercise thing with the thigh master the bow flex. It's just the next piece of shit, you know, thing that's going to end up being a coat hanger. So sorry. Don't buy it. Not worth it. I, I use mine. So I don't, I support it. I'm paying my fee. But it's not worth to buy the stock. No. [1:00:51] Chad: You don't think they're going to come out with a dope rowing machine next or something? [1:00:55] Mark: They might try. I don't really gonna get the financing for that. But good luck, right? [1:00:59] JD: I like it. I like it when, when Roguey tells you to stay away from you Listen, thanks by the way. [1:01:04] Mark: That's been my first don't buy. [1:01:06] Speaker E: So. [1:01:07] Mark: So now if you, if you're all [1:01:12] Chad: right, Mark. [1:01:12] Mark: All right. That's true. [1:01:13] Chad: Mark, Can I please let you know too that like to be the stock tip guy. I couldn't have picked a worse time for you to do this. I mean this has been crazy markets and you are somehow surviving through it all. So kudos to you. Kudos to you. You Nevin, thanks for joining us today. We appreciate it. I know I kind of suckered you into that. [1:01:36] Mark: The checks in the mail. Don't worry. [1:01:38] JD: The checks in the mail. [1:01:39] Chad: And thanks to everybody out there for tuning in. I need to share a little something with y' all before we head into a little mini after show. We will not be here next week [1:01:55] JD: and we will not be here the week after that. You might say to yourself, you lazy saps like why are you not doing that? Not true. We will be working on some retireholic stuff and so just trust in the fact that we're working hard for you to bring you something new and different and original and it means that we will all be together but out doing something and cannot come next. [1:02:19] Chad: The next two weeks we'll be back on the. The. [1:02:22] JD: What's the week after the 25th? What's the date with Decento? [1:02:26] Chad: Michael Decento will be our guest. [1:02:30] Speaker F: We better not be talking about the. The. We can't say that word. But you know what I'm talking about. [1:02:34] Chad: But I'm so. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for the non transparent nature [1:02:40] JD: of this message where we'll be. But just trust in the fact that we're working hard on some retireholic stuff for you guys and. And we'll be back. Okay. Thanks for tuning in a chopper champion. We don't finish at 30 at 5:30 anymore. We do what we do. Right? [1:02:58] Chad: Your vote for chapter champion, Mark, is Brad Bartels. Brad Barthels. [1:03:03] Justin: Brad had a solid night. [1:03:05] Chad: Justin, your vote for chapter champion. [1:03:07] Speaker F: He was my only vote. [1:03:08] Justin: I'm going right? [1:03:08] Chad: You're going for the nerdy cpa. [1:03:11] JD: I'll drink for that. [1:03:11] Speaker E: Again, [1:03:14] Chad: I don't know if there's anyone nerdier than Brad. [1:03:16] JD: I think Brad tops the list of nerdy nerdy accountants. [1:03:19] Chad: Chad, your vote. [1:03:21] Justin: Oh, I thought you were saying Chad. Top spread. Hey, it was solely your Ed for me. But I'm sticking with the guy who was strong all night long. And that's Ed DiMarino. [1:03:32] Chad: Nice. [1:03:33] JD: Okay, I'm gonna go for Desenso. I like it when he tries to stir the pot a little bit on state run plans and fees and. And this and that and. And. Just because he loves pooled employer plans doesn't mean I have to hate him. You know, I just have less of an opinion of his intelligence. But he's a good chat bar guy. [1:03:51] Chad: Nevin, your vote for chat bar champion. [1:03:54] Speaker E: I'm going with Kush. [1:03:56] Chad: Oh, nice. Very nice. [1:03:59] Justin: I think too. [1:04:00] JD: Is he really? That's dedication. [1:04:02] Justin: I think he said the best entertainment on a plane is what I thought he said. [1:04:06] JD: I like that. I like that. Okay, Brandon, those are our chat bar champion peeps. And let's see who's gonna win. [1:04:14] Mark: He said I'm not. [1:04:18] Justin: Hey Mark, while Brandon's pushing that up, you should know that I had my TD Ameritrade account on the other screen and I was going to buy if you told me to buy. I Was ready. [1:04:30] Chad: You should short that, bro. [1:04:32] Justin: Right, J.D. i don't know what that means. [1:04:34] Mark: Wait, what is the. What is the price at right now? [1:04:36] Justin: It was like $10 and 28 cents, I think. [1:04:39] Mark: I think. [1:04:39] Justin: I think I just. I didn't. [1:04:40] Mark: I didn't. I didn't think about that either. But whatever, I'm gonna stick to it. I'm sticking to it. [1:04:44] Justin: Well, I didn't realize how big of a dive it had. [1:04:46] Speaker E: Had. [1:04:46] Justin: When I brought up the chart, it showed I don't know how far. Oh, it's been crushed at north of a hundred dollars a share. This 128. [1:04:54] Mark: Now, I will say that. That the easy. The easy answer there is to buy because it's at so low. You're like, it can't go any further than that. [1:05:00] Justin: But. [1:05:00] Chad: But I'm kind of with you, though, Mark. I just don't know where their growth [1:05:03] Speaker F: comes from relation to pre covered. [1:05:06] Chad: Come on. I can't do a tie, guys. Vote, vote. Keep voting, people. We got a tie right now. [1:05:11] Mark: Let's vote. [1:05:11] JD: It would help if. [1:05:14] Justin: Yeah, we would. We would be four solid votes. [1:05:19] Mark: If we need a tiebreaker, we just ask. [1:05:21] Chad: All right. Okay. All right, we'll tie it. Tie it up. [1:05:24] JD: All right, let's. [1:05:25] Chad: Yeah. Go back to the old days, Mr. Nerdy CPA. I'll drink for that. And, Kush, Mark's gonna ask you a question. [1:05:33] Mark: Oh, no. [1:05:34] Chad: Yeah, and you're gonna have to put your comment in the chat bar. And the best comment wins. Mark, [1:05:44] Mark: What do you get when you combined Nevin and JD? Go. [1:05:54] Justin: They both just signed off, actually. No, I'm kidding. [1:06:03] Chad: Wait. You get someone with average intelligence, safe sex, psa. Brilliant. Okay. Sorry, Sorry, Brad. I'm pretty sure Kush is gonna win that one. All right, Kush, you are a chat bar champion. See, Brad, sometimes being conservative doesn't pay off. Sometimes you gotta rattle the cage. Kush. Yeah, pretty sure I got your address, buddy. So unless you're. Unless your address has changed, let me know and you'll get some goodies. [1:06:36] JD: Not. Oh, yeah, I'll send them to you next week. [1:06:39] Chad: Maybe I'll send them to you tonight. Who knows? Yeah, I think I'll send them to you tonight. And thanks, everyone, for tuning in to another episode of Retire. Alex, we really appreciate it, and we will see you in three weeks and [1:06:52] JD: tune into our Instagram and our Instagram [1:06:56] Chad: stories, and maybe you'll get a little peek of some of the stuff we're working on. [1:07:00] JD: Okay? [1:07:01] Chad: And we'll see you back here with Desenso. [1:07:03] JD: We'll talk pooled employer plans and all kinds of stuff. So, Brandon, play us out with some music now.