10 Things I Hate About 401(k)s | Nevin Adams

[0:02] Justin: Sit back sideways, Coach. That could be. [0:04] JD: Yeah. [0:15] Justin: Hey, Nev. [0:17] JD: Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Retireholics. It's the third Thursday of the month, so you know what that means? [0:26] Mark: No. [0:26] JD: It's experimental format day. Yay. [0:31] Mark: It means that the month is almost over, Right? Sort of. Really? Yeah. [0:37] JD: Not this one. [0:38] Mark: Yeah. [0:38] JD: You know how people talk about love and understanding and treating your fellow humans with kindness and, like, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. [0:53] Mark: Treat others how you want to be treated. [0:56] JD: Yes. [0:57] Justin: Sounds boring. [0:58] JD: For today. That. That today we're calling this the pessimism show. That's right. We're going to talk about all the things in 401k that we and you think suck. We're going to name names. We're going to talk about people that suck. Their families, po, possibly. We'll talk about companies. We'll. We'll throw in some of nerdy Chad's things, like I throw out on LinkedIn. Hey, we're gonna. We're gonna talk about things that suck. And Chad goes, what did he say? Yeah, RMDs. [1:34] Justin: Like, no, it's an ADP. [1:35] JD: No, Chad, we're not talking about that. Not that. Stu. Silly. [1:38] Justin: Can we just acknowledge Mark's list? Because that was epic. [1:41] Mark: Yes, that's that. Unfortunately, we're too. We're too ingrained in that stuff to not say it sucks. I mean, that's really what we're doing, like, and dealing with all the time. So when you say that, jd, it's like sometimes you just gotta say what's on your mind. And I don't blame Chad for saying those things, but I like where your mind's at. [2:01] JD: Yeah. Yeah. So we'll start off with. With you, Mark. Let's ask you, who's the shittiest wholesaler you work with currently? Okay, let's. [2:12] Mark: I'll name one right now. Yeah, I'll name one right now. [2:16] JD: Let's go. Let's go to. Someone had a comment and in the LinkedIn post, Alexa Keel. I'm probably botching her last name, but she said, you know what sucks is service. And I was like, whoa, wait, expand on that for me. Like, what do you mean, service? And she went on a pretty long thing. You can go read on LinkedIn. And she basically said record keepers. She made the point that we've talked briefly about before, but that in this race to zero in terms of fees, that record keepers have been tightening up their. Their overhead potentially, and the service roles and the amount of people that the student to teacher ratio has fallen and advisors are starting to feel the pains of a lower level of service. I have heard this from other advisors in passing and talking, but it was interesting to hear, hear her say that. So that's my first one for you guys. Record keepers, service structure. What's your take on it these days? Is it falling apart? [3:27] Justin: I wouldn't say falling apart by any means, but I would say it, it es and flows as Mark likes to not say it right. But it does. And I think I find it varies by region too. So some, some regions are really good. There were some record keepers that the guy sell up with north that I don't do down here too often and vice versa. I'm sure it's the same nationwide, but I think so. [3:50] Mark: So I was gonna say he, I. I'll say a couple of things to this one is I'm going to play both sides of the coin if I, if I, if I can. So the first being for, for too many years now have we heard this, I'll just say excuse of how things changed over the pandemic and all these people left and that employees, you can't find employees to replace people. And then there's all these ideas of the, the service departments lost a bunch of people and haven't been able to recover. And I'm, and I just again I look at that and I go, well that just tells me that there's inefficiencies of how things are being run and that you need to begin to tighten up procedures or maybe, maybe you need to start, you know, looking elsewhere for the people you're hiring and look at other industries and look at people who actually focus on customer service. But the other side of that coin is do you think that sometimes expectations can be somewhat unreasonable in terms of what is expected from service people? Now we all work in a service related industry. We are service people. So we get it. I'm not perfect. I make mistakes. I don't respond fast as I can. But it's all in how we respond. It's, it's controlling the controllables. But also on the other side, the person who is asking for this service, it doesn't mean it has to be in 30 seconds that you get a response. It doesn't mean that, that you have to have that phone call picked up on that first try. But it is about response time. It's about how quickly you can address the situation. It's about how you can tell somebody how you're going to fix a problem if there is one. I think Sometimes it's, it's managing one's own expectations. [5:52] JD: That's fair. [5:52] Justin: That's a tough one. [5:53] JD: But I also, I'll go deeper on it though, with a deeper cut. Where in retirement plans. It's complicated. There's lots of moving pieces, there's lots of rules, there's lots of different things happening transactionally until you kind of like, I believe, really need to know your shit to be able to deal with a lot of customer inquiries. And I'm talking just like plan sponsor looking for something or the advisor in the plan looking for some help with something. And, and I think, and this going to sound very old guy, get off my grass or my lawn. But I think there's less knowledgeable people in those roles these days. And so it's great to have internal operations like you talked about, Roy, where, oh, they're going to get back to you quickly. And they, and they stick to certain, like company standards and stuff. But what I see that makes me cringe is every once in a while I stick my nose into an email string from a client or advisor to a record keeper and I start scrolling down this string of this ping pong match of back and forth of question, inquiry, answer. And no one seems to understand. Like no one will use Justin Sport. No one's skating to the puck. Everyone's just like, oh, they asked this question. Let me find the answer. Here's your answer. Instead of like, what's the client trying to accomplish right now? Or what is this? Why is this advisor asking this question? And I feel like in the old days you'd have people who knew that and they could, they could snuff it out real quick. Now I'm seeing it's just ridiculous back and forth because the people don't, they don't understand the questions that are being asked to them. Not, not in the general sense of the, of the whole thing. [7:34] Justin: It feels like a combination of go ahead, go on. [7:37] Mark: Nope, nope. [7:38] Justin: Feels like a combination of that. But it also feels like a lot of people, I don't know if it came with COVID and the whole quiet quitting thing, but a lot of people trying to punt to another party, like they want to do the absolute minimal amount, right? Like, oh, hey, this is the TP job. And TP is like, well, no, that's the record keeper's job. And there's this internal battle. It makes us all look like to the client, right? [7:59] JD: So, But I will tell you, I'm [8:01] Mark: just gonna say can we just be honest and can we not poke the record keepers all here and say, even we as a TPA or have to raise our hand to say we're. We're not perfect. You know, like, for sure. Our sir. Our service model needs to adjust. We need to adapt. We do. We try, but we're not. I mean, we. Again, let's. Let's use our industry. We come up on deadlines and response time maybe gets affected or things get, you know, pushed off a little bit. And so there, There are also, like, busy times that can create frustrations with clients. And so I don't, I don't want to sit here and say record keepers are at fault. Like TPAs also need to look themselves in the mirror. [8:45] Justin: Yeah. [8:45] Mark: And get better. [8:46] Justin: Sometimes a client needs to look at themselves in the face too, because how many times have they delayed getting data to us, which only creates a worse problem for us down the road. Right. It's like we get 40 people or clients sending data into us in the last two weeks before the deadline. [9:01] JD: It's pronounced. It's pronounced data. [9:03] Justin: Data. It's the same thing. Potato. [9:05] JD: Well, let me go. Let me go deeper on the anger side of it because I do believe that the, The. There was a race to zero and. Or is. And I do believe that record keepers are less profitable, and I do believe that that logically would impact their service model. But since we're talking about looking in the mirror, let's offend a couple advisors while we're here who has been pushing for low fees and spreadsheeting record keepers side by side and calling you and whining about lowering your fee or finding the cheapest record keeper for this or for the last decade. A lot of advisors have been playing that little violin for a long time. So they've played a big part in pushing all these fees down as low as they can go. Even Samson's look in the mirror and saying that he's done that. And now you get what you asked for, people, you kept wanting to push all the fees down, and now you're bitching that the service isn't good. Thank you. Aiden. [10:10] Justin: Weren't you and I just talking about this yesterday? I think it was where it's like, I wish we would take the same approach as the health industry does. Like the health benefits. Like, hey, this is the cost. Like, this is what you're going to pay and we don't push back on it. It's a, It's a monumental undertaking for. For them, you know, a client to think about. Oh, my God, do I got to go really look at my whole benefits package again. I mean, I know you guys do, but it feels like there's not as much pushback on that side. Am I wrong on that, jd, I don't know your guys's back end. [10:38] JD: I mean, I don't do a lot of deals these days. You know, I don't. Only time I'm doing deals is if there's revenue share involved and, and I want to. [10:47] Mark: And that makes sense, Justin saying it's like, you know, if. If, like a person who sells benefits walks into their client's office and goes, remember how last year your price was 10,000 for your benefits? This year it's 13. That client's not going, oh, you're out, we're done. You know, and they're, they're, they're going in and having that conversation of the prices increasing. But when we get brought to the table on maybe moving a 401k plan, the expectation is that the cost has to go down. [11:14] JD: Yeah, you're going. [11:15] Mark: No, we're actually making it better. So if the cost doesn't immediately go to the floor, that shouldn't be an issue. [11:23] JD: Yeah, well, obviously those are not totally analogous, but I agree with what you're saying. [11:28] Mark: Hey, buddy, don't use big words on this show, all right? [11:32] JD: My understanding of the group health costs are like, that's just. That's the insurance companies, and that's, That's a bigger problem in itself. [11:40] Mark: Well, why is that just okay to. Yeah, well, so some insurance companies have four 1K products. Same thing. [11:46] JD: Yeah, fair enough. But I agree. And so everyone listening in, maybe we can start pushing more towards less of the whole low cost comparisons and more of the whole, I like this product for my client or this vendor for my client because they do a great job. [12:03] Mark: Whoa, Aiden, I. That's really smart. I like that a lot. [12:08] JD: All right, I got another one for you. And sorry to pick on Record Keepers. We can move on from Record Keepers after this. But I'll tell you something that lands pretty high on my sucks list, and that is national sales directors of Record Keepers or. [12:28] Mark: Oh, I thought we weren't picking a record keepers anymore. [12:30] JD: Anyone. I said we're going to move on after this one. Or anyone that's in a similar role that comes to my company at the close of a year and says, like, the Voya guy or the nationwide guy or the principal guy or the whomever, and goes, hey, I wanted to have a meeting with you to kind of make sure that we're doing good by you guys as a record keeper, etc. Etc. And then what I find out is the real purpose of the meeting is you guys did 26 plans last year. Let's set our goals for next year. We're going to up it. Let's do 45 next year. Like, let's. What's our business model looking like? And I'm like, I don't work for you. You don't come to my fucking office and tell me how many plans I'm going to sell next year and get the out of here. I. I hate that. And you know what else they do? They print it out on these little paper and they bring it to you and they're like, here's how many plans you guys sold in the last five years in last year. And it's like, how do we get more. What's that? [13:32] Justin: How do we get more out of you? Especially, like, when you're one of their top tpas and like, hey, you're going on the trip that, you know, Chad gets going. It's like, but how do we do more next year? It's like, I just gave you 60 plans. [13:43] JD: Yeah, I can't stand that. [13:45] Mark: I have a very similar understanding to that. It's. It's like when I sit down at the end of the year with our national sales director, Chad Johansson, and he goes, mark, you did 7,000 plans last year. Next year, I need you to do 9,000. And I'm like, dude, I can't do much more than I'm already doing. I'm already picking up your slack. I'm picking up Devin's slack. I'm picking up. [14:07] JD: I can't. [14:08] Mark: The cross is too much to bear right now. It's the same thing. [14:11] Nevin Adams: I get. [14:12] Justin: By the way, I like how you're saying that when Chad's not of here. [14:15] Mark: Yeah, let's talk about. [14:17] JD: Let's talk about Chad while he's not here, because it's slightly related and you've just kind of brought it up. So when the record keeper fly Chad to Bermuda and beautiful places around the world, is he tainted? Is that a conflict of interest? Like, is he then coming to you guys and, like, we got to sell more of these plans. These guys are sending me on trips around the world. He's. [14:39] Mark: It doesn't taint him whatsoever. But think about how it feels that we never get invited and that he just expects to be able to go and takes his wife. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, let's probably [14:53] JD: share it around on, like, how come it's just Chad that goes all the time. [14:56] Mark: Yeah. [14:57] JD: I don't know. Chat bar. Give us. [14:59] Mark: He claims that it's only owners, but I don't believe it. [15:02] Justin: Doesn't have to be that. [15:03] JD: Has anyone not had their boss come to them every single Vernon year? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's pretty common, but that's fine. A boss upping someone's quota, I've got no issue with. That's. That's. The person works for you. I don't work for you, John Hancock. I don't work for you. Voya. Don't come into my conference room. And so I'm supposed to sell next year. [15:27] Mark: Jd, let me just. Let me just ask. Then it. Do you mind first off having that meeting with that person? Okay, well, so put us. Put aside the. The request for more plans. Do you. Are you okay with sitting down with that person and having a discussion about what's good, bad? [15:43] JD: Yeah, that's what it should be. Is like, how is your team interacting with my team? Do you like our product? Is it. Do the clients like it? [15:49] Mark: You know, so then what. I guess again, because I just want this to be an open forum. I'm going to interview here. Like, interview you here a little bit. What would you rather that person? Because I guarantee they're required to do that. What would you rather they approach that with or if you were in their shoes, and how would you do it? Because I know you're. [16:06] JD: Yeah. [16:07] Mark: You would say. You'd be like, hey, dude, corporate back here. They're gonna tell me to say all this stuff. Like, I'm. We're doing good. This is awesome. If we do more, even cooler, better, awesome. [16:17] JD: Like, all right, I have a very simple, straightforward answer for you. No, the concept, what you do is you go in and you provide value for that client. You say, if I'm Voya and I'm walking into that TPA firm, I'm coming in, trying to figure out what can I do to make life easier for that tpa. [16:40] Mark: What can I do? [16:41] JD: Shouldn't be. [16:42] Mark: It shouldn't be the sales director or they should be bringing in the TPA relationship manager Sales then. [16:47] Justin: Right? [16:48] JD: I still. Sales. I. I sat with sales. [16:50] Mark: Isn't controlling the. The. The administrative part of anything order, but I get. [16:57] Justin: I get where you guys come from. I understand what you're saying, and God knows I agree with it. But at the same time, let's not forget about the fact that we're all in sales. Like, we're all trying to reach goals together. And a lot of those are those Meetings are like, hey, how do we. How do we hit our goals next year? This is what I got to get. How can I do that with you and partner now? If they take the right approach from a, hey, how do we partner better together? How do we sell more together? Rather than, hey, how many plans can you sell for me, Justin? [17:21] Nevin Adams: You. [17:22] JD: You sitting and having a coffee with your local wholesaler, trying to figure out how you want to tweak your plan for 2025. I got no problem with that. That actually gives me the warm fuzzies. What I don't like is some idiot stepping in from the corporate office who's not boots on the ground, not doing and. And giving me the same pitch they're going to give some other tpn. How many plans I sold last year and how many plans on next year? I was sitting with Devin yesterday. Yesterday after doing advisor golf, and we were sitting with an advisor having a beer after golf. [17:55] Mark: Devin, who just had a new baby, was playing golf yesterday. [17:58] Nevin Adams: Yeah. [17:59] Mark: What? What? [18:01] Justin: I didn't get a response on a text. [18:03] Mark: Wow. [18:04] JD: And anyways, Devon, what's cool about was, is that he actually cold knocked this guy. Like he, he went to his office without knowing him and, and got in there and met him and they ended up doing a plan together and stuff. And anyways, we were sitting the guy and, and I was saying something that I felt very passionate about, which is we were both trying to help Devin kind of understand his job. I said, your job should be think one priority. Every advisor you meet, you should be genuinely and honestly in your heart thinking, how can I help this person have a run a better business? How can I help them make more money? How can I help them be more efficient? How can I help them succeed in 4K? And if you go into it with that headspace, that sales, but you're not asking for business, you're saying, how can I be of service to you to make you better at what you do? And that's what I'd like to see a record keeper step into those meetings with. Instead of asking for business. All right, let's. Let's move on. What do you say we name some names of some people that suck in 401? [19:10] Mark: That. Yeah. Oh, I can name plenty of stuff. [19:14] JD: Let's see if any of them are. Are here. [19:16] Mark: They might be. [19:17] JD: They might be. I don't know. [19:18] Mark: I got, I got three names right off the top. [19:20] JD: Okay. How'd you like. Let's talk about everyone. This will give you a little inside scoop on people that have turned down guest spots on Retireaholics. So I reached out to them to ask them, hey, would you. Would you like to be on Retire Holics? Would be awesome to have you as a guest. And there are a handful of people that basically told me to fudge off. And we're going to name who they are right now, shall we? Oh, shit. One you remember? And this guy tops the list for me right now. [19:53] Justin: Oh, I know you're going to say [19:55] JD: when we were doing the debate show and Michael Dosher, dosher of Hero Price kicked out on me the night before the goddamn show. Now, I don't know if that's Michael or T row and some power to be a T row, but saw just throw both of them under the bus. Those. That was lame. All right, next one. Wayne Park. He's the chief executive. He's the CEO of John Hancock Retirement, and he has ghosted me. He literally is not responding to my texts. I'm inviting to be on the show, and he's straight up ghosting me. So Wayne, don't know how to put this up. Ken Monroe, I asked him to be on the show. He straight up denied me in an email and I wrote back. And then lastly, Rob Smith of Pep Hub. I love Rob Smith. He's such a little aggravator on LinkedIn, chiming in all this stuff. And so I'm like, let's go. Come on the show and let we can talk peps. We can talk all kinds of stuff. Because he's really, really smart and he just straight is like, no, I don't want to. I don't want to. So I'm claiming he's scared that he can't handle a pep debate with me, but I don't think that's true. I think he really just doesn't want to come on the show anyways. That's my list of people that I've asked to be on this show and have turned me down. How dare you? How dare you. [21:26] Mark: Justin, you're up. [21:28] Justin: I say. [21:31] Mark: All right, I got a few. I got a few names. Number one, Chad Johansson. For obvious reasons. [21:37] JD: Yeah. [21:37] Mark: Number two, Justin McNeil. His intros suck. So, yeah. Number three, J.D. carlson. He's ripped off my game. He says things about driving Lamborghinis while not actually driving Lamborghinis. Really? Just get a Lamborghini and call it a day, would you? Brandon Carlson. Because he's just too good at his job. Stop being so good. Maybe just suck once in a while. Make me look better. Okay, let's See William Hackler, you're too funny. You're just amazing and I hate you for it. [22:10] JD: Don't do this like compliment pessimism thing. [22:15] Mark: Oh Mark is too pure hearted to. Did not do that. There's. There's this you know like rap battles. There's a, there's a guy who does these things called the nicest and they, they, they do compliment rap battles. [22:32] JD: It's. [22:33] Mark: It's really good. Dude, that's great. [22:35] JD: I would love to see that. Okay, yeah, enough of that nice stuff. I hate you because you're so cool. That makes me mad. I got one. How about these names? Let's see if anyone in the chat bar can recognize these names or tie them to anything. John Hickenlooper, Tom made up name. Tom Tillis. Terry Se S Lloyd Smucker. These are, these are government congressmen, congresswoman people and Sean Parker from Napster fame and Facebook. Steve Glickman, the former senior economic advisor for Obama and the Rocket Mortgage owner, Dan Gilbert. And they're all led by the little suckiest ringleader of them all. Teresa Gillard Ducci. There's some names that suck in 401k. Why, why does JD say this? These are the people behind the Retirement Savings for Americans Act. That little government retirement plan that gives a 5% match and all that chat bar tear into me. Do we like this thing? Is it good for, for 401k? Is it good for the world? Let's go to Justin. You how do you feel about this Teresa Giralducci her claims of retirement plans being a total failure in a disaster and wanting to replace it with a government deal. [24:10] Justin: I think the chat bar speaks for us all. If you. [24:13] Mark: I think, I think they really like it. [24:15] Justin: I think we hate them. [24:17] JD: It sucks. [24:18] Mark: No. [24:19] Justin: So especially if you got Nevin saying it sucks bad. I think that just. [24:24] JD: Yeah. So we need to know that's got to be way up. Catch me outside. How about that? [24:29] Mark: Yeah. [24:31] Justin: Now am I a fan of like mandates to force people to start saving? [24:35] Mark: Yeah. [24:36] JD: Yeah. You like some government intervention huh? When it works, you like it? [24:43] Justin: Yeah. Sell more plans, you know. [24:44] JD: Yeah. I just to me the, the government matches the one that gets the fire lit under my ass and for a couple of reasons. One, I feel like that's the most dangerous thing to the private 4.1k system is to have like a government match would be really tough to compete with even though it's. I believe the proposal is only go to like people of a certain income. Like lower income. But also I'm I guess I'm a capital. Is capitalist the right definition? I hate it when we look at things like a government match and think that it's free. Like, oh, we're gonna get a government match. No, that's Justin's money. That's rogue guy's money. That's my, that's everyone's money. We pay taxes. The government gets revenues from this and they decide where to place this money. Do I want them taking that money to fix roads and bridges and, and, and create a military and make it a better world or do I want it so they can give a 5% match to people? [25:46] Mark: Please, please fix bridges. I mean that road's whatever, but bridges are kind of important. They go over bodies of water and then you could die. [25:53] JD: And we already have Social Security, so it's like I don't even, I don't even understand that. So she definitely gets on the, on the list. Teresa Gillard Ducci. Do you know we're not the only one in a bad mood. I had no idea that Nevin Adams had written a pessimistic list of things that he was pissed off about. [26:17] Mark: You would think that somebody who's supposed to be enjoying retirement would be in a far better mood than he is. You. [26:25] JD: We should talk about his. That was the scandal of the industry. Like why, why did they want to convince us that Nevin Adams was retiring? What was the purpose behind it? Because it was clearly a, a falsity. Like it's, we've, we've been snookered in some big way. He's not retired. It's. Has not gone away in any way, shape or form. He's in the exact same Nevin Adams he always was. Maybe he just has John Sullivan like sweeping up around the place, you know, but he's still working his ass off every day as far as I can tell. But he was in a bad mood. 10 pet peeves about the retirement industry. I had no idea that this had come out. Now I think most. [27:07] Nevin Adams: Hold on, hold on. [27:08] Mark: But can we be amazed at how he dropped five and is making us wait for the next five. [27:15] JD: Oh, is that one? I guess I didn't count them out there. [27:19] Mark: I know, it's genius. I mean imagine like the cliffhanger. You're like, oh, now I gotta season two. I mean you're just getting advertising dollars [27:27] JD: from that he had. He clearly has a sore spot when he reads non industry articles like in, in bigger like media publications that tear apart the 401k and talk about it being a failure or you know we replace pension plans and it's not working and it's ripping people off and all the things that these articles say. I can tell that Nevin gets very upset with that because that's when he puts his best work in is on his rebuttal pieces that he does. And he'll come back with these very robust kind of rebuttal pieces on why that article is wrong and why they're getting it all wrong. So God bless him for that. But I can tell he gets really hot blooded on that stuff. And that was what this was basically about. He's calling them idiots right there. He's calling them idiots. So. Yeah. Yeah. Well they're making people believe things that aren't necessarily true and then kind of. It's misinformation is what it is. Nevin. They're harming them with that. With their opinions. We definitely should censor them. Rid them of their Twitter accounts. And I'm kidding. We let them speak even though they're stupid. So anyways, Nevin Adams is in a bad mood too. Alicia Muno. Is she. She bad. I thought she was just. She's leaving. Right. She's. I knew that she's retiring or getting out that she's at the Boston whatever thing. You'd have to teach me more about that. I don't. Didn't know she was a bad character. Okay. Let's go. Yeah. At least. See, I'm not always a dumb surfer. At least I know someone's geographic area or something about what they're doing. Justin Mark didn't even know what her name was. Like that just went right over their head. So. [29:16] Justin: Oh yeah. For sure. [29:18] Mark: I'm not afraid to admit that. [29:21] JD: So sure. Brandon Nevin, if you want to join us and complain about people we could add some intelligence to the show really quickly on LinkedIn there was another dude who went ham on. He wrote his own list of 10 things that pissed him off or that they sucked. And so let's tackle a couple of those. John Jeffries. Am I getting that name right? Is that someone checked that for me. But he said number one on his list. Why do advisors always say this? The whole rollover process. They're frustrated by rollovers and I'm assuming the difficulty in making a rollover happen. I'm going to defend the industry for a second. We make rollovers happen. Don't we like it that you. You request them. We. We do them. [30:15] Nevin Adams: Yeah. They. They happen. [30:16] Mark: But even being involved on the. [30:19] Justin: What is it. [30:21] Mark: Involved in one on myself helping when my Wife do one from a previous simple. Like, it was a pain in the ass, dude. Like, nobody talks to each other. There's paper here. There's electronic here. You got to send things there. Like, it. It can be very cumbersome. It can be just confusing again. Now, having dealt with things like that before, I feel like I have a level of understanding. But even me, like, using myself as an example, I was like, this sucks, dude. It was not something I want to do again. [30:52] JD: Yeah. So I guess the advisors, I hear that from them a lot. They really want to be working with a personal client and be able to roll their money out of 401k plans and do it, I guess, very quickly. And to mark's point, it can be a pain in the ass, I guess, sometimes. Yeah. [31:08] Justin: It says it's. Unless you're rolling it from a 401k to the same providers, IRA. It can get clunky. [31:13] JD: Yeah. [31:14] Justin: Slow, painful. [31:15] JD: But I'm sure if you talk to the guy who sits in our office that does it, he'd be like, what? Come on, bro. I'm doing all kinds of these things all the time. [31:22] Mark: Well, yeah, he is, but he's also having to tell them what to do before getting to that point and that participant or that hr, so they're like, you know, throwing their hands up. [31:33] JD: I like this one. Number five in his list was manage accounts that are substantially more expensive than target dates or target risk funds, but don't offer improved returns or decrease risk. And this is my favorite part. Then he says parentheses. So, like all of them, he was throwing darts there. [31:56] Justin: He's not wrong. [31:57] JD: So he thinks manage accounts suck because. Oh, we are. We have somebody get him up here. Let's ask him about his. His five. Five pet peeves. Is that what we got going on so far? [32:10] Mark: Although let's ask if he'll reveal one of his other ones on our show. [32:14] Justin: That's a great. [32:14] Mark: Okay. [32:15] JD: Okay. All right. Was I. Was I close to the. To reality shirt choice? [32:20] Mark: Nevin. Good shirt choice, buddy. [32:23] Justin: Hold on. Hey, welcome back, dude. It's so good to see you. [32:26] JD: It is good. [32:27] Nevin Adams: Yeah, likewise, guys. How you been? [32:30] JD: Good. Good, thanks. Was I right or was I wrong? Do you squirm when you read those big national articles that rip apart the foreign k? Because I always feel like you put a lot of effort into the response. [32:40] Nevin Adams: Well, the good news is after a while, you just recycle it. [32:46] JD: Buttle. [32:47] Nevin Adams: Because it's the same. And what I hate is they all get picked up in syndication every time. Teresa GHILARDUCCI writes a column on Forbes. It gets picked up by all the news services and you get the headlines. And there's never any context, there's never any background. There's never any basically rebuttal or questioning. They just take it, you know, verbatim. And our industry, which is why I wrote the column, our industry is, is pouring fuel on this frigging fire. We, we talk about a retirement crisis like we're living with one. [33:21] JD: Why do we, why do we talk about it? We talk about. Because we think somehow that'll help move the needle if, if it's a crisis. Right. [33:29] Nevin Adams: But it's stupid because everybody then they say, see, even this industry, even this industry says this. And then the things in this week's, the one you're talking about, this week's, we got people, you know, they ask people who've never done a retirement needs calculation. We don't know anything about these people. And they say, so how much do you think you need for retirement? It's probably the first time they've even thought about it. And then they average those stupid numbers and they publish it like a headline like, you need $2 million in order to retire. Shit you don't need. Most people don't need anything near that much money. But we don't, we don't point that out. It's a perfect opportunity to say, look, people are saying they need 2 million, but you know what? They might not, but they need to take the time to do the calculation. They don't say that. They just let the numbers sit out there. [34:16] Justin: Yeah, think about the stress that puts on those people. They're not educated on it either, thinking, oh, my God, they don't. [34:22] Nevin Adams: Would you try it? Yeah, exactly. Would you sit there and try it? I mean, and everybody, we just sort of accept this notion. Some of the people in the chat room are saying it, you know, yeah, we've got a crisis. Well, I'll grant you there are some people out there who are going to be looking down the gun barrel of a crisis. That's true. But there mostly is because they don't have access to a 401k plan to do something about it to begin with. The system. This is where Andrew Biggs has been such a godsend. You know, he, he points out the actual government data. I mean, I'm living in retirement, folks, and I'll grant you, you know, I'm an exalted, you know, whatever, but, but you don't need so numbers. This industry uses to tell people that you have to have to live in retirement don't apply to most people. You don't want to run short. And I don't regret over saving. But, but, but we are scaring people ridiculously for no good reason. [35:19] JD: You're also always, you're always, I've seen some of the, like the TV interviews that they've done on this type of thing and they're interviewing people who are really struggling and it's like you're always going to find people that didn't responsibly live their life and now are, are paying, you know, for that later in life. That's going to happen no matter where you are and what's going on. Unless you think that the government is just supposed to literally take care of everyone. But we, we do a pretty decent job of that around here in the United States of America. So my point is, I don't care if you had great 401ks or pension plans or you have Teresa's plan, people are still going to fuck that up and you're always going to have those outliers of, of course. [36:05] Nevin Adams: And, but that's the most recent thing. The most recent thing is we're going to try and fix some of the social inequities, the economic inequities of society in retirement. It's like, no, no, no. The problems need to be fixed earlier on and they're part of the income system and that kind of thing. It, you can't, can you give us, [36:26] JD: can you give us an Update on, on RSAA? Like that was big talk in 2023, [36:33] Nevin Adams: but it's not dying, guys. Every other week there's some other congressperson signing on as a co sponsor. [36:44] JD: So they're still getting, trying to add to the team of supporters. [36:47] Nevin Adams: It's, it's creeping forward, creeping forward. Now there's a lot of things that could upend it. God knows. You know, the ARA is working really hard along with other organizations to help put that out. But, but a lot of the folks are buying the line. They're not seeing the camel's nose under the 10 thing. [37:04] JD: Well, you know what scares me. Does this make sense to you? Is that it's kind of built to reflect the Thrift Savings Plan in a way. Right. And so I'm sure that all those government types like the Thrift Savings Plan and so they could be easily swaying right. Of like, oh, this is going to be just like what you guys have. We're just going to give it to the rest of the people. Like that's a dirty little trick they got going on. Like, I could see how people would agree to that. [37:31] Nevin Adams: Don't. Yes. The. The advocates of this system, and they've been creeping along this for a while. Teresa, is the most obvious one, and it's slowly evolved over time. Being very smart about the positioning. And you're exactly right. You're dead on with the TSP comparison because the TSP program is probably the most popular government program in existence other than Social Security. So. So there you go. [37:57] JD: This is a real. This is. This isn't. Has not let up on steam. It sounds like it's even scarier that if people are adding to it, you need to. [38:08] Nevin Adams: We need to keep the energy up because this one could sneak into existence. It's a, It's a stealth thing because they're all saying, well, we're not going to touch your 401k. And you'll notice they don't answer, how are you? How will this be paid for either? But everybody keeps talking about the nice ways that the tax preferences the 401k gets could actually be redirected into other things. [38:32] JD: Do you remember was it disclosed what the. That 5% match, what the comp limit is like? Was it someone making less than 40 grand or less than 35 grand or what is it, less than 50 or something crazy? [38:47] Nevin Adams: It was disclosed. It's higher than that, but it is, it is. It's definitely like middle income and below kind of thing. [38:56] JD: I mean, the higher it is, the scarier it is. Right? I mean, if, well, $75,000, that could be a real problem. [39:06] Nevin Adams: I, I think 75 is the number. Although, again, I just, I don't have it close to hand. But that is, that's exactly the concern that the ARA has talked about, is that at some point then the employers say, hey, you know what? Let me just let the government take care of this. [39:19] JD: Right? [39:21] Nevin Adams: And that's, I think, the issue now, and the problem with something like that is the government programs have a tendency to sort of go overboard in some ways. And I don't know, it's. It's. It's a real issue, but we really got to be careful letting this one sneak in, because [39:38] JD: what are we supposed to do? I mean, what are you guys trying to. You're gonna try and talk to different congressmen and senators and people and try to bend their ear and then. [39:48] Nevin Adams: Yeah, well, what happens is. And, you know, maybe I can. How. How best to do this. There's a list of the sponsors, co sponsors of the bill, and I don't know we'll, maybe I'll get napanet to publish that out. And everybody who lives in the States or does business in the States where this is going on, you need to reach out to those, primarily senators and, and alert them to this issue. I mean, ARA is on it all the time, but ultimately people who are actually in their districts are the ones, they're the voices that they really listen to on something like this. [40:24] JD: How many people actually do that, though? I mean, I imagine very few actually write these things. And do those guys actually read that stuff or does some secretary read it? [40:34] Nevin Adams: And they probably got staffers that are reading it, but if they got enough of it, it would matter. I mean, again, don't get me wrong, ara's influence is strong and powerful and it is, it has made a dent, if you will. But, but there are some real, there's some moneyed forces. This is probably the big difference this time. And you mentioned a couple of the names. There's some big entrepreneurs and, and they are, they're greasing the wheels for these opportunities. They are being told that it won't do anything to the 401k and they're also being told it won't cost anything. They are being lied to. But it's a powerful, important message for them. They look at it as a way to do something good for people who don't, who don't have access to a plan. They're not really seeing the full picture. [41:19] JD: So that's scary. Okay, shit. Well, this was a. [41:22] Nevin Adams: Well, but these other things, all this stuff about the, you know, the, the panic and the retirement crisis and all this, they're also responding to that, which is why our industry needs to cut out that shit. We need to. When we're going to talk about the dangers and people not doing the right things, we need to help them understand what the right thing is. And we need to quit hitting the panic button. I mean, a cynic might say that this industry is anxious to scare people into putting more money in the system. [41:48] JD: That's why they do it, right? That's why they're doing it. [41:51] Nevin Adams: I'm not going to be cynical. [41:52] JD: If there's a retirement crisis, then what you need is someone to come save the day, and that's someone who's bringing you a good plan and helping you out. Right? But you're saying, no, no, no, don't use that as your. [42:03] Nevin Adams: Well, you, you can. As I said, there's plenty of motivations. If you said if people said they needed to come up with $2 million to live on in retirement. We might take a few minutes to talk about how ridiculously high that number is for the vast majority of people. [42:17] JD: How do you feel about. I always. Throughout the. And I know, per your article, which obviously is accurate in that to come up with a number is ridiculous because it's an individual thing. But who was it? Fidelity was floating around the 10x income thing, which I was. That's a little softer sort of, you know, I mean, make 100k a year, you got to save a million to kind of live your life. I could see that. But then again, obviously you're right. Like, okay, where are you going to live? What kind of car are you going to drive? Who else do you have in your house that is, you know, living with you and covering expenses or not covering expense? I mean, there's so many questions to ask. [42:56] Nevin Adams: I mean, our goal here is to avoid a retirement crisis, but everybody talks like we're smack dab in the middle of it. And I think that the real problem is the crisis out there. And we've had success in getting some reports to about verify this, the real crisis. People who don't have access to a plan coverage. There's nothing that stops people from just going on their own and opening their own account, their own IRA and stuff like that as a plan. That sucks relative to a 401k, but still, you know, there's an opportunity here. Now you've seen Cerule's numbers. We're talking 300,000 more plans or something like that. [43:33] JD: Well, I was just gonna ask you. I was just gonna ask you. I. And I hate to use these guys an example, but I would say human interest has had some success in that they're approaching like 40,000 plans that they've got on the books now or something like that. Maybe more than that. And Guidelines had kind of similar success. And those two companies, their business strategy was to go after small startup plans. I mean, I think the great, great majority of that business is tiny startup stuff. So it feels like the coverage gap is getting squashed a little bit. This has got to be a big deal for the ara. Are you able to measure that in any way, shape or form and, and feel like we're making progress or not making progress in terms of the coverage gap? Because I would think the success of those companies would be some type of indicator that that's happening a little bit. [44:32] Nevin Adams: Sure they can, but unfortunately, the official data lags a couple of years. [44:35] JD: Yeah. [44:36] Nevin Adams: So you're always looking back and, and so you can Extrapolate from some of that, that kind of reporting and stuff like that. But, but you got to be careful with that because sometimes, sometimes people who are building a business have a tendency to round up and. [44:52] JD: Oh, they can't do that. Yeah, I'm just happy. All right, you want to talk, you want to talk? Something that I thought sucked is since we're on it originally when you asked guideline and human interest in these disruptors, who, let's remind everyone listening in, these are venture capital backed businesses with hundreds of millions of dollars invested in them to disrupt Wall street, if you will. But you, when you'd ask them how many plans they had and try to get a gauge on their success, their Silicon Valley vibe is not to tell you. They, in the beginning days, they would not tell you how many plans they. And I remember getting in a very heated argument with one of them saying, look, look, look, you don't understand. Our industry advisors are helping clients choose vendors. They have to vet those vendors out. And part of vetting them out is to understand like their business and is it stable and how many clients do they have and how many employees do they have and all these types of things. So you can't play your Silicon Valley venture capital game on us that that's somehow locked behind a closed door. You have to tell us what's going on so we can properly offer you up to a client, to a plan sponsor because they have a fiduciary responsibility to make this decision. You know, they're not buying hammers out of the store, they're buying, you know, company sponsored retirement plan. And so I'm least grateful now that they actually share their numbers because there was years where they never shared them. But they can't be lying to us, Nevin. They're, they're gonna tell us. [46:24] Nevin Adams: Did I, did I say lie? I said round up. [46:27] JD: Round up. Well, you can't, you can't round up [46:31] Nevin Adams: from sometimes, sometimes those sales numbers are aspirational, which doesn't mean they're not real. It doesn't mean they're not based on something. It just means they're in process. [46:41] JD: Well, I didn't like them to begin with, but I've said many times the egg is on my face because I mean, they've sold a lot of plans in a very short. Think about that for a second. Voya has been around for so long and, and they're approaching companies like Voya and Principal and passing companies like Nationwide and Transamerica who've been doing this for, you know, decades. And these guys have been around for six, seven years and they're, they're passing them in terms of total plans like they are doing what they said anyways. [47:18] Justin: I, I, I mean, they're leveraging the payroll companies too, which is helping them out a lot. [47:22] JD: Oh, for sure. [47:23] Nevin Adams: Oh, yeah. [47:23] JD: Key to their success. Okay, well, Mark asked it and then we'll let you go. Can you give us a, a hint at one of the next five? [47:33] Mark: No, not, not a hint. Can you just tell us, number six? We're just going to be direct and say it. [47:39] Nevin Adams: Sure. Number six. And you actually got a hint of it this week. There's a couple of consultancies out there that every year talk about how does the US Retirement system stack up on a, compared to other plans in the world. [47:54] JD: Yeah, other countries. [47:56] Nevin Adams: The US Always sucks. It always comes in at a C or maybe a C plus. This year, one of these firms, the rating actually, the US went down. Still C plus, but still down. And, and it's all, like I said, it just dings the system. It's one more of those things that says, you know, your system sucks, so you need to replace it with something else. But what they never tell you, they don't tell you a couple of different things about this. And first of all, it's a complicated rating system that they use and, and it all sounds very intricate and, and precise and things like that. And they've got three different categories and all. But if you look at this kind of stuff and they put a big emphasis on mandates, so like people being required to put money in and then B, people not being allowed to get the money out. Now it's a little bit like Social Security, you might say, you know, but they, we never get any real credit for Social Security because it's only, you know, it's a foundation system, if you will. It's not like the be all and end all. Most of these countries that top the list, the Nordic countries primarily, first of all, it's a much smaller population. Secondly, they have so the, the mandates and that kind of thing, and it's wedded into their culture. The other thing is the big union populations. Okay. So they're kind of used to the big, I mean, as I said, it's a, it's a whole different dynamic than [49:15] JD: America where we don't, we don't really. [49:20] Nevin Adams: Yeah, literally. And what they also don't tell you is what these programs cost in terms of taxes that are imposed and things like that. It's all focused on the benefit side. Well, I Get that. I mean, they don't purport to be doing anything more than that, but they take that, they look at one side of the thing and they, they put up a ranking of systems and the US Is way the hell down the list. And it makes it look like it sort of feeds into this whole narrative. It suddenly says it's like, well, that's why there's a retirement crisis, because your retirement system sucks. [49:52] JD: Sucks. [49:54] Nevin Adams: And that. So that's on my list. It didn't make the cut. This list, it is number six on the list is coming out next week. So there you have your breaking news, but there's a, there's a little hint of it because they just released. One of the firms just released this report again that says that has that kind of ranking and stuff. And I did write the article on it, but I didn't editorialize very much. I basically just sort of put it out there and I think acknowledge some of the things that I think that ought to be have to be taken into account by anybody who actually wants to climb up that list. But, but I can tell you right now that if, if we wanted to come up higher on this list, if we were. I think last year when I wrote, I talked about grading. The grading on the curve. [50:39] JD: Yes. [50:39] Nevin Adams: It, you know, you're. You're going to have to do some things that honestly, the American people, I don't think, and the American policymakers are not going to get behind. So you know what? Our retirement system based on these gauges is going to continue to look kind of average. [50:53] JD: But you know what, but that's, that's what we want. But that's what we want. We, we don't want policies that would mandate companies to give a match or, I mean, I don't know, but we, I guess we did just pass. Every new plan that goes in place has to have automatic enrollment now. So we're, we're doing which. [51:11] Nevin Adams: Which people can opt out of. [51:13] JD: True. Right. [51:14] Nevin Adams: Right. Not just. See, that's the thing. And, and that's the trick. And that's, that's what's really. [51:18] JD: We like freedom here, Nevin. We like freedom in the United States of America, where. [51:23] Nevin Adams: This is America. [51:26] JD: Thank you, Devin Adams. Have a wonderful retirement. [51:33] Nevin Adams: Thanks, guys. Good to see you. [51:35] Mark: You too. [51:35] JD: Make sure John Sullivan sweeps up your office properly. Okay. Last. Let's go one more. Roby. I'll just. Are you prepped on this stuff? Did you, did you bring a list of things that you hate or. No, [51:55] Mark: of course. [51:56] Justin: Yeah. [51:56] JD: Yeah, let's go with number seven on that LinkedIn post. And I also saw our buddy, our, our CPA audit buddy. Yes. Brad Bradley's Brad Bertels saying, oh, am I going to make the list? I'm going to make the list. So yeah, I guess CPA audits make the list, but I'm going to go a different way. I think it's all a scam. I have stuck my nose into quite a few plan audits of recently and I'm noticing like software outputs. Like, I'm getting a feeling like they can just dump a bunch of data into this thing and the, the audit just kind of pumps itself out and maybe they make themselves feel better by taking a look at a couple loans. Yeah, Bill says cut and paste. That's another great example of it. Like, I'm not, I would love to see a, an investigation into the actual [52:59] Justin: work that's being into the investigation. [53:02] Mark: So maybe they need to change the name of like a CPA audit or give it like levels or something because yeah, I'm. [53:09] Justin: Nice bread. [53:11] Mark: I don't know. [53:12] JD: I'm half joking when I say that. [53:14] Mark: Right. [53:14] JD: I definitely think it might be a little, little easier and more efficient than most of us imagine it to be based on some of these outputs I'm seeing. But people, if you were to ask anyone, advisors, plan sponsors. Yeah, TPAs too. I'll tell you why, I'll about that a little more. But how they feel about plan audits, [53:34] Mark: I have, no one likes them. I have an idea. I've got a, I've got a idea. All right. I think this is how turbotax was born where somebody sat there and said, oh, I could do with my CPA does for me, I could, I could make this simplified. We need to have a turbo tax for 401k audits. Self service, baby. I just did my 401k audit myself. [54:03] JD: It's called AI [54:07] Justin: clients can't submit census data on time. How are they going to do that? [54:14] Mark: I definitely, I'm kidding, Brad. I would never do that. But I just, I, again, I, I, I've never poked my nose into what you're poking your nose into. JD and obviously I know that there's, there's got to be a lot of work involved going on there. And I have full trust in, in quality firms like Brad with Brad Bartels represents. I don't know about the others. [54:34] JD: I don't know. It'd be a fun task because I think sometimes they don't even look at the things that you would think they should be Looking for, like, they. They kind of check standard boxes of things they're supposed to do. But I feel like there's other things that can happen improperly in a plan that an audit doesn't really look at. Like, I'll give you an example. Like, I was this going to sound funny coming from a tpa, but I have had these weird thoughts about ADP tests recently. Like, all the ADP tests that happen all across the country every year, like, are they done accurately? Like, are the right people on the census and the right information? And are they letting us on the data? [55:19] Mark: Do we know if there's six or seven family members with the, you know, that are actually being earmarked as such and are actually HCs? [55:27] JD: Like, and then lastly, during a point [55:29] Justin: of sale today, right, you know, I got the. The census and it just had one owner. And as I'm going through the whole thing, the owner's like, hey, so person sitting next to me is an owner. Oh, okay, great. Go through the rest of it. You know, got. I'm doing the illustration, updating it on the fly. Get to another employee. Oh, that person is the new owner's son. I'm like, tell me this beforehand. [55:51] JD: I just feel like when I think if you ask the client that they get an audit, they'd be like, yeah, we get an audit, so it makes sure everything's done right. And I'm like, nah, it's really just making sure that, like, money's going where it needs to go to and it's not being siphoned out. And I mean, Brad, rip on me in the chat bar where, if I'm getting this wrong, but I don't think anyone's really looking at, oh, was the testing done right? And, you know, are the results from this ADP test accurate? And so you said it's all about the data, which is totally true. But the problem is, is that in so many plans, the data is not coming from, like, reliable, accurate sources. We just don't live in that world yet. I. I mean, I shouldn't say that. We definitely live in a world where that could happen that way, but it's just not. And so a lot of them are just people are using their hands and typing data into keyboards and cutting and pasting stuff from a payroll system. And we definitely don't live in a 360 integration world. Like, that's a very small percentage of the plans that have that type of thing. And so anyway, what. [57:02] Justin: And this could already exist? I don't know. I don't do payroll in the payroll system? [57:06] Mark: Can you. [57:07] Justin: Do they like it? Identify, like, hey, this is so and so's son, daughter, spouse, like that? [57:12] JD: Of course. Well, I shouldn't say. Yeah, there are. I'm sure there's many that do make [57:17] Justin: that a freaking standard that you have. [57:18] JD: But that's the problem. [57:20] Mark: Here's everyone's lives. [57:21] JD: We'll end on this. Here's. Here's the problem with that. And everyone should think about this for a second as it relates to payroll, because I do believe that the future of our industry is going to be around payroll integration one way or another. Like, we just have to get there. And Chad's been a big believer of that, and he's finally convinced me. Okay, but when you talk about using a payroll system, whatever that is, whether you're using paylocity or Paychecks or ADP or all the thousand different vendors that are out there, usually the person using it is using it to get the paycheck out. They want to. They want to pay their people. They want to make sure that Mark gets his paycheck and Justin gets his paycheck and Chad gets their paycheck, you know, and so to do that, you don't necessarily have to have all the data in the system. You know what I mean? And so it'll work just fine if it's lacking things like simple way to [58:19] Justin: do that, to correct that. [58:20] JD: What's that? [58:22] Justin: Have a data field with an asterisk that doesn't let you move on until you fill it up. [58:25] JD: You have to force them to do it. But these days, they can get away with just using the right cells that they need to, to make sure the paycheck goes out. And therefore, if you try to use. Tony's talking about Finch on there, there's, there's payroll integrations we've had on the show. Human Interest has built their entire business model on these kind of 360 integrations and stuff. But if the person at the, at the monitor isn't using that system in it, all this capabilities. Let's just speak English, Shady. Meaning they're leaving out some information that is necessary for the 401k but can still make payroll work, then you got a problem. And that's, that's really what we're up against now is like, how do you audit that? How do you use Justin's strategy of, of mandating it? Because no one's really doing that. And. But we'll solve it. We'll solve it. But I just want everyone to be aware of it like just getting. Just because you're so sucking over payroll data doesn't mean that that's the golden ticket. Because that can be just as filthy as the stuff that the customer entered with their own hands because they're not using it properly. That's been my take at least. Okay, we have. Our next show is November 7th. It's a good old fashioned retirehogs acro sin drunk fest. And I'm very excited to announce that a past guest will be rejoining us. One of my favorite ERISA attorneys, Thomas Clark. Thomas Clark, very well spoken, not afraid to share his opinion. November 7th, after the election. When is the. Damn. When is the election? [1:00:10] Mark: Don't. [1:00:10] JD: Don't say that. [1:00:14] Nevin Adams: Come on, JD. [1:00:17] JD: I know. It's like 19 days away or something. So will we have results? Will we know who our new president is? [1:00:25] Justin: Have no results for like two months. Dude. [1:00:27] Mark: Yeah, last time. We'll never have any president. [1:00:33] JD: Well, anyways, he will. He will be here and I'm very excited to have him back. He's great to talk because he does not mind sharing his opinion about things. [1:00:42] Justin: When do we have him on the show last? I don't even have an intro. [1:00:44] Mark: Long time ago. [1:00:47] JD: Justin, you're such a lazy SAP. Looking for your old intro. That's where your brain goes. All right, everyone, thanks for tuning in. We are the retireaholics and. [1:00:59] Mark: Wait. Or do we do Chat Bar Champion on these ones? Because if. If we do, we just have to give it to Nevin because we took him from Chapar to couch. [1:01:09] JD: Our champion. Today's show on November 7th. I think we're going to be revealing this year's Chat Mark Champion and their gift. [1:01:19] Mark: Speaking of which. Speaking of which, our last show, didn't we have a new gal get a prize and you were gonna like. [1:01:24] JD: She never. No, that. I love that. What was her name? What was her name? I love her. She's so. [1:01:31] Mark: She's back in the tapes. I don't remember. Yeah. [1:01:33] JD: Okay, so, yeah, she just talks mad about me in the chat bar and I look back at her. Jen? Yes, Jen. I don't know who Jen is. We need to solve this mystery. But no, she did not take me up on her free gift. And so she likes to stay anonymous. [1:01:51] Mark: All right. [1:01:52] JD: Which is kind of fun, actually. [1:01:54] Mark: Yeah, that's. That was gonna say. That's. That's pretty. That's pretty gangster. [1:01:57] JD: No more people should do that. Come in under alias and talk mad in the chat bar. I like that. That's good stuff. We're the retirehlogics. We're changing the retirement plan industry. One forever lime, sparkling water at a time. And we'll see you next time, people. Peace out.